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Project Serpo: Postings by "Anonymous" -- Breaking news?

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posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by EBE1 But publishing an E-mail list
oh my god well thats just wrong


Yes. It is wrong to post the personal information of someone, or a private list maintained by a private person, online.

Ethics should not be hard to understand.



No one knows yet if the information is accessible via FOIA - so whether Anon is leaking "classified" info is not really known yet is it?

I agree strongly with SkepticOverlord on this one - putting a person's private email onto public domain opens that person up to spam, hate-mail, etc... is flat out wrong. Its about the same as writing someone's phone number on the bathroom wall and writing "For a good time call ....."

There is a difference between being on a mailing list where not everyone on the list can necessarily see everyone elses email address, and having your email address posted to a forum such as this where anyone and their mother can view it regardless of whether or not they are a member.

-rdube02

______________________________________
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really: get busy living, or get busy dying."
- Stephen King, Shawshank Redemption









[edit on 16-1-2006 by rdube02]

[edit on 16-1-2006 by rdube02]




posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by Centrist

Originally posted by Jeddyhi
Why is this "list" being treated as some kind of top secret list. The names are very relevent to the Serpo story. The names without the address would do no harm and would definitely satifisy the curiousity of those who haven't seen the list.


Satisfying curiosity is not really the issue. The list is Victor's compilation to disclose and conceal at his discretion, not the discretion of those on the list. There's no reason why the list has to be kept "top secret", but I think Springers point (and a very valid one at that) is that the owners of ATS do not want this list being published here.

If you do a google or yahoo search, then I'm sure you'll find one of the places it was posted. However, I know one of the sites determined that it violated their TOS and removed it.

I think that posting the list would violate the ATS TOS, by the way, since it would amount to publishing the people's personal information without their consent.


Agreed! Good point. I am now on the list. Man, that was easy!!

[edit on 16-1-2006 by Jeddyhi]



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 10:43 AM
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Posting Victor's list is wrong, and I even say that posting the log files of the serpo site is it too (legal?).
You never know what effects this has on the employes of the agencies who surfed instead of working
, because I can't imagine an agency monitoring this forum with their real ip address.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by EBE1
It is a public list not a private list because anyone can join it.


Victor's email has been posted in numerous places. Perhaps you should write to him and request that you be added to the list. I disagree that the list is "public", since people are added solely at Victor's discretion and, to my knowledge, has not publicly posted the list. There is no site you can go to, put your email address in, and be added to the list automatically.


A lot of people are saying that it was Victor that leaked his own list to get back at Jack Sarfatti and a few others that he had disagreements with anyhow.


I find that statement difficult to understand. I can't say that I've ever heard such a thing. Perhaps you could provide some background of that statement and a link to some public discussion that's occured that supports this statement?

Most importantly, Skeptic Overlord has spoken on the subject of whether the list can/shall/will/may be posted on ATS. If you have a need to review the email addresses on Victor's list, feel free to locate the list and peruse it. Let us know if you learn anything from it. This can all be done without posting the actual list, though.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by looofo
Posting Victor's list is wrong, and I even say that posting the log files of the serpo site is it too (legal?).
You never know what effects this has on the employes of the agencies who surfed instead of working
, because I can't imagine an agency monitoring this forum with their real ip address.



I wasn't going to post the addresses I was only going to post the names. I blame George Bush if he thinks it is OK to bug ordinary Americans then you can hardly blame the editors of this site for allowing the Serpo logs to be posted. The president should set a moral example. Now theres a funny thought.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 11:20 AM
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I don't know if this has been discussed yet...


They also took electric razors, coffee pots, electric heaters, a DIM (no explanation as to what this was), an electric IBM typewriter, a scientific calculator, slide rules (both conventional and scientific), Base Data Collection Recorder (BDCR), three different sized telescopes, tangents, both conventional and electrical.


Can some one tell me how they could take a scientific calculator with them, when they weren't invented untill 1972?


The first scientific calculator was the HP-35 introduced in 1972 (it cost $395 US).


ued.uniandes.edu.co...



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by ethanmallory
The agencies have various proxies which can fake easy their ips. They wont show up as DOD or FEMA. No spy is running around and saying "hey iam a spy"...

one small hint. When you visit the DOD, in the main lobby there are 4 inet terminals. All 4 have ip's related to DOD.



To the contrary, people are accessing the Serpo site directly form within the DIA.

Furthermore, the web logs do not state, "This visit was from the DIA." They do, however, appear as a standard IP address, which when traced, point back to a server within the DIA. So, contrary to your statement, they do show up as originating from within the DIA, or as in the case with the DHS they actually show up as "dhs.gov."

And what I have been informed are proxy server addresses (which appear on the Serpo logs) are within the range of IP addresses used by the DIA. It has also been brought to my attention that the use of these proxy servers in fact does hide the actual number of visitations.

In truth, even if one ignores the IP addresses of these particular proxy servers, given the sheer enormity of the Pentagon, I find your suggestion that each of the visits had originated from one of four lobby-located terminals to be more unlikely than the Serpo story being true word for word!

I seriously doubt every desk jockey analyst at the DIA is issued a cloak and dagger to match their self-destructing laptop they use everytime they anonymously meet in their secret cafes to exchange secret handshakes.

Again... 31 (known) visits over 45 days. This equates to more traffic to the web site than the total traffic recevied from Japan, Austria, Iceland, Portugal, New Zealand, Norway, and Mexico combined. The fact that such a small subset of the population would account for a disproportionate amount of the traffic is indeed mathematically significant, whether or not it is indicative of DIA invovlement in the Serpo story.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by Jedi_Master
Can some one tell me how they could take a scientific calculator with them, when they weren't invented untill 1972?


The government was known to use several of these "back in the day":

www.xnumber.com...


In 1964, for example, Sharp Corp. of Japan introduced the first transistorized calculator, the SHARP CS-10A, which weighed 55 pounds and cost $2500. Another popular system, the WANG 300, a desktop unit introduced in 1965 by Wang Corp. was priced at $1700. The world's first desktop scientific calculator, the HP9100A, introduced by Hewlett-Packard in 1968 was sold for $4900.

external image




posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Jedi_Master
I don't know if this has been discussed yet...


They also took electric razors, coffee pots, electric heaters, a DIM (no explanation as to what this was), an electric IBM typewriter, a scientific calculator, slide rules (both conventional and scientific), Base Data Collection Recorder (BDCR), three different sized telescopes, tangents, both conventional and electrical.


Can some one tell me how they could take a scientific calculator with them, when they weren't invented untill 1972?


The first scientific calculator was the HP-35 introduced in 1972 (it cost $395 US).


ued.uniandes.edu.co...




Actually, Wang Laboratories produced an electronic scientific calculator in 1964. (source). The HP-35 was the first pocket-sized electronic scientific calculator, which as you state, was developed in 1972 (source).



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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SkepticOverlord - I've been viewing your responses throughout this thread and seem to be one of those with an analytical view on things...could I get your opinion on this?

I made a post a couple pages back regarding the team bringing watches with them. Here's the quote:

---------------------------
"The Team Members brought several time pieces, e.g., wrist watches, non-battery style, as it stated in the debriefing data. The time pieces worked, but they had no reference to time since the Eben days were longer, the dusk and dawn periods were longer and they had no calenders to reference.
They did use the time pieces to calculate movement, for example, timing the movement of the Eben two suns. They also calculated the time between work and rest periods. But, after awhile, the team discarded their time pieces and used the Eben's measurement of time periods. The team became confused with the calenders they brought – a 10-year calender."
----------------------------

Wouldn't the scientists on the team - with knowledge of the scientific principles of time and how time would be measured on different planets, have planned ahead, and come up with a method of measuring time on the Eben planet? Why would they even attempt to use wristwatches which are just preset measurements of time based on the rotation of Earth? Wouldn't you think bringing watches at all would be somewhat pointless?

-rdube02


[edit on 16-1-2006 by rdube02]

[edit on 16-1-2006 by rdube02]



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:06 PM
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Kudos to Springer and SO on that podcast. That was an excellent interview.


And thanks to Bill Ryan for answering some tough questions. I bet you got more than you bargained for when you took this project on, and I applaud your determination.


On this being a disinformation campaign back in the 60's, it does sound plausible. Though I would think it may not have been to "scare the Soviets", but could have been useful for other reasons. One reason this story may have been used was to root out someone leaking information. It would be a story big enough that a spy would pass it to his contacts, and if received on the other end, the spy would be identified. It could have also been a story given to a known spy for disinformation to destroy his credibility. But if you were going to make up a story like this to use as disinformation, like Bill said, wouldn't you make up a more believable story?

One thing that I find difficult to believe is that all this information is contained into one report. One thing the government does with classified information is to compartmentalize it. It is divided up and one department is not allowed to know what the other department knows. This is done so that no one person would know the whole story about anything they want to keep secret. This report just does not sound like the way the government handles classified information.

Just a few thoughts.

I still am leaning on the skeptical side of this story, but it is an interesting one. I think everyone has done an excellent job investigating. Keep it up.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Jedi_Master
Can some one tell me how they could take a scientific calculator with them, when they weren't invented untill 1972?


The government was known to use several of these "back in the day":

www.xnumber.com...


In 1964, for example, Sharp Corp. of Japan introduced the first transistorized calculator, the SHARP CS-10A, which weighed 55 pounds and cost $2500. Another popular system, the WANG 300, a desktop unit introduced in 1965 by Wang Corp. was priced at $1700. The world's first desktop scientific calculator, the HP9100A, introduced by Hewlett-Packard in 1968 was sold for $4900.





I may just be arguing semantics here but...the SHARP CS-10A had only 4 functions, add,subtract,multiply, and divide, it's not a scientific calculator...

The Wang 300 series didn't go into production untill march 1966...

And yea I was wrong it was the pocket calc in '72.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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And is it me or does SkepticOverlord remind anyone else of Jeff Bridges.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by Jedi_Master

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Jedi_Master
Can some one tell me how they could take a scientific calculator with them, when they weren't invented untill 1972?


The government was known to use several of these "back in the day":

www.xnumber.com...


In 1964, for example, Sharp Corp. of Japan introduced the first transistorized calculator, the SHARP CS-10A, which weighed 55 pounds and cost $2500. Another popular system, the WANG 300, a desktop unit introduced in 1965 by Wang Corp. was priced at $1700. The world's first desktop scientific calculator, the HP9100A, introduced by Hewlett-Packard in 1968 was sold for $4900.





I may just be arguing semantics here but...the SHARP CS-10A had only 4 functions, add,subtract,multiply, and divide, it's not a scientific calculator...

The Wang 300 series didn't go into production untill march 1966...

And yea I was wrong it was the pocket calc in '72.




One thing to bear in mind though, is that historically the military generally has had access to technological advancements before they are made available to the public, this was especially true of computers and instruments that would be particularly useful to the west during the height of the cold-war.

Anglo.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by Jedi_Master
I may just be arguing semantics here but...the SHARP CS-10A had only 4 functions, add,subtract,multiply, and divide, it's not a scientific calculator...

The Wang 300 series didn't go into production untill march 1966...

And yea I was wrong it was the pocket calc in '72.




I think by today's standards it isn't a scientific calculator, but I believe by 1960's standards - that would be the "scientific calculator" of the day? Just like the first "computers" of yesterday aren't much more than a calculator today...

-rdube02



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:34 PM
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ok, I have a theory. though, I have no proof mere speculation.
but, would intersteller winds have anything to do with the physics acting awry? and back in the 60's was this even thought of?

www.aas.org...

and if so...what I get out of it...two binary planets together would make for
some pretty different things to be happening...with time and days and such
I bought this up earlier...but, I think its quite interesting.



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by rdube02
SkepticOverlord - I've been viewing your responses throughout this thread and seem to be one of those with an analytical view on things...could I get your opinion on this?

We got another one fooled!



Wouldn't the scientists on the team - with knowledge of the scientific principles of time and how time would be measured on different planets, have planned ahead, and come up with a method of measuring time on the Eben planet?

Yes... and here we go with a non-podcast version of "What The Overlord Thinks"...

I briefly touched on this thought in our podcast interview with Bill Ryan, and I may as well elaborate here.

I'm leaning (strongly) in the direction that these events did not happen, however, but that the "Project Serpo" documents may very well exist.

Back in the mid 1960's, the Defense Intelligence Agency was a relatively young group, but was born from a convergence of several military intelligence units in 1961. They saw "early action" in Cuba and soon became tasked with numerous intelligence assignments related to the cold war. One of their mandates was the creation and distribution of misinformation, misdirection, and counterintelligence to thwart the "red menace" of communism.

Long, long ago, I was involved with a chapter of MUFON and saw information related to the DIA effort to take advantage of Roswell to convince the soviets we were in possession of extraordinary alien technology. (There was even some speculation at the time that the entire Roswell event was staged for this purpose.)

Now, to get to your question... now that I've had more time to examine the story (since my initial posts), significant portions "read" like the poorly researched and developed "pulp" science fiction that was popular in the mid 1960's. It's as if some counterintelligence officer gathered up four of five "leading" pulp sci-fi hacks and put them in a room to create a fantastic story that would scare the bejeezuz out of the Russians. Then record the entire affair in "official" documents as if it really happened, with the intent to stage an appropriate leak at the right time.

So this explains some basic science and common-sense foibles we're seeing in parts of the story.

Also, given the mandates of the different intelligence agencies back in the 1960's, it would be unusual for the DIA to engage in this assignment, unless it was for cold war counterintelligence. So, with that in mind, "Anonymous" could be an elderly person who was involved and perhaps forgot (or didn't know) it was fabricated counter intelligence, or a DIA "rank and file" who discovered the documents. If this is the case, the story might soon be "killed" by a sudden odd change in the way information is delivered, a slip exposing it has a hoax, or similar credibility killing event... "they" won't let any type of disclosure (even of fiction) happen. This killing-event would also occur if Project Serpo is a hoax, creating a Titor-like event that would be talked about for years to come, fueling speaking engagements and book deals.


I suspect sooner or later, we'll know more.



(fix typo and add a thought)

[edit on 16-1-2006 by SkepticOverlord]



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 01:25 PM
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Thank you SkepticOverlord!

I have to say I agree that it reads like an old pulp sci-fi story... Not only that, but having a wife who has a Masters in literacy education, I never hear the end of it when a form of writing is grammatically all screwed up. So over time I tend to get irked (like hearing fingernails on a chalkboard) when something is written poorly.

One of the first things I noticed when I started reading it was the tense. It's all written in the present tense - like a story where the narrator is writing as they are walking around or moving around. This would make sense if the narrator recorded the events in a tape recorder and then wrote it down later, but this didn't seem to be the case because the narrator kept mentioniong that he could't "write" from the dizziness he was experiencing.

It differed from most "diary entry" type of writing in that most entries in a diary are in past tense. Such as "today we saw the inside of the mother ship and it was huge". Instead he writes everything as it is happening, which doesn't make sense as a journal entry. But it would make sense in a pulp sci-fiction story....

So I'm leaning heavily toward your theory - although I am greatly disappointed...and hope that it turns out to be disproven...

Thanks for the update on the podcast with Bill Ryan.

-rdube02



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
So, with that in mind, "Anonymous" could be an elderly person who was involved and perhaps forgot (or didn't know) it was fabricated counter intelligence, or a DIA "rank and file" who discovered the documents.


Or, quite possibly, it's on someone's agenda to release bits of the story now. All of these are such reasonable possibilities, I think that's why so many of us are sitting on the fence waiting for actual evidence.

We know two things for sure -- Serpo is a "story" and someone wrote "the story". We have no idea when it was written or by whom, just as we have no idea whether it's fact or fiction. Although it's being released under the guise of being from official government documents, nothing tells us whether the documents themselves are real accounts or a fictional story meant for use as disinformation now, in the past, or in the future.

Right now, we are in a rather blissful state of ignorance, as well. We can each believe what we want; and if Anon disappears, we'll all believe what we will. Sure, we'll be "picking at the bones" as Bill Ryan suggested in the PodCast, but I'm sure we'll each take away from the story whatever suits our "need to know". Of course, that won't suit "what we want"... but it makes you wonder...

Are we being fed authentic information with as much plausible deniability as possible? Are we being "authentic" disinformation as part of some agenda? Are we being fed disinformation believed by the "insider" to be authentic? Is someone out there trying to perpetrate a hoax?

Does it all sound too much like the plot of a prime-time show?

Who knows... it could even be related to something I received in an email message recently, which (in part) read:


Name withheld

Recently a new kind of marketing scheme has hit the internet, companies and individuals create websites that make amazing claims, such as these:

divethedeepscuba.com.au...
paleoshilling.nl...
You can listen to the alleged audio discussion on this third giant here:
giantology.typepad.com...

These all turned out to be a marketing scheme to promote a new video game, Shadow Of The Colossus:

www.us.playstation.com...

Then this website:
www.lochnesstooth.com...

Which turns out to be nothing more than a marketing scheme for this book:
www.lochnesstooth.com...

These type marketing schemes are smart, they wander to online forums that are specific to the subject, then the buzz starts, and they have accomplished their mission.

These type incidents are very disruptive to serious researchers, they are in a way another type of dis info method, those of us who are serious researchers into all areas of UFO and the paranormal and all areas of this nature are very frustrated with all the disinformation and fake information that is abundant now everywhere.



--me

(I'm reserving judgment until I've read and fully digested everything that "anonymous" has written)



posted on Jan, 16 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by rdube02

Originally posted by Jedi_Master
I may just be arguing semantics here but...the SHARP CS-10A had only 4 functions, add,subtract,multiply, and divide, it's not a scientific calculator...

The Wang 300 series didn't go into production untill march 1966...

And yea I was wrong it was the pocket calc in '72.




I think by today's standards it isn't a scientific calculator, but I believe by 1960's standards - that would be the "scientific calculator" of the day? Just like the first "computers" of yesterday aren't much more than a calculator today...

-rdube02





Well tell you what, the calc's were a "new fangled gadget" at the time ( even if trhey could get them in time), these people were going on a mission with a weight limit of 4.5 tons...

Now which would you do...

Take an untried calculator that could possibly break, or have other issues in design (hey remember the Pentiums with the floating point problem?), they already had the tried and true method that they were used to (the slide rules)?

Or would you chuck it and make room for something you could use, like a scientific microscope, or other measuring type equipment?


10) The Eben's energy device was analyzed over and over again by our team. Since our team did not have access to scientific microscopes or other measuring equipment, we could not understand the function of the energy device.

www.serpo.org...

I belive I'd chuck it, and make room...




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