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Project Serpo: Postings by "Anonymous" -- Breaking news?

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posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by sdrumrunner


Originally posted by Bill Ryan


Originally posted by sdrumrunner
Mr. Ryan,

...In a message reportedly written to Don D. by Victor Martinez on Dec. 17, 2005, Victor writes, "The SERPO.org web site has also been visited by the CIA and this stream contains one contact at the White House NSC."

Can you confirm this claim, and if so, would you be willing to share your web log reports with us here at ATS?



Hi, sdrumrunner –

Many thanks. I don't have the resources or experience to evaluate the weblog. I welcome support from anyone on this forum who could help (might be a big task). I can give you password access to the control panel and then you could help yourself... if anyone would like to do that, please send me a U2U or contact me on the website contact form. I'd love to know who's been visiting the site.



Hi Bill,

Thank you for the prompt reply, as well for the offer of transparency. I am however curious -- if you personally are unaware of who has been visiting your site, how exactly did Victor become privy to such information?

Thank you once again.

Best Regards,

sdrumrunner


Hi, sdrumrunner – Robert Collins (who knows exactly who's been visiting his site, and where they've just come from) two or three times reported that USG agencies had been visiting his site and had come from the Serpo site (where there are several links to Collins' site). My best guess is that Victor got it from there.

Best, Bill

[edit on 14-1-2006 by Bill Ryan]




posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:17 PM
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well, for one. it explains alot of victor..how her perceives things...second it would show how he could of have "credible" people onto his list...to me Mr. thorn seems to be right into the gear of things...and is quite aproachable person when it comes to these subjects..giving his background about ideals of the nature.

[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by Bill Ryan
One aspect of the problem of overtly trying to discredit it, and making a lot of noise in the process, is that Anon is watching all of this from wherever he is. And assuming he's for real, he could easily lose heart and give up if he feels the world is against him... and if he's for real, then he's definitely been experiencing difficulties (look at the gaps in the posts)... and we also know he's elderly. If he's not for real, then none of this applies. But dare we take that risk? Look at what's potentially at stake here...

Do you see what I mean? That would be a tragedy – for an extraordinary true story of this nature to be killed because of open cynicism. I bet very few other people are thinking in this way. But if we could come up with something that's close to proof – and the AF Col (ret) who confirmed the story is the closest to that for me – then the entire thing could go the other way. We have to be very smart about how we behave with what could be a very sensitive issue.

Best, Bill


Bill,

Personally I see things exactly the opposite. Surely Anon would foresee that making such claims without adequate proof or sufecient data would bring all sorts of the skeptics out of the woodwork. I would hope that the onslaught of people dismissing the story as nothing but another hoax would make Anon more determined than ever to get as much information into the publics eye as possible. If Anon is someone who is going to loose heart in the whole story just because everyone isn't taking everything he's claiming as the 100% truth then I don't think he's the right guy to be bringing us disclosure.

After all, Anon is the one that went public with this, we're simply doing what comes natural when presented with this kind of story, we're questioning the validity of the information until it's either proven legit or proven false.

I don't encourage anyone to dismiss this story, but I also don't think there is anywhere near enough information available to us to be make anyone a complete believer.

[edit on 14-1-2006 by futureafter]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by waffleprime
to me Mr. thorn seems to be right into the gear of things...and is quite aproachable person when it comes to these subjects..giving his background about ideals of the nature.


Very interesting. Then would you say that this development makes you more or less likely to believe that there is something genuine about Serpo, or less likely?



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by Centrist

Originally posted by waffleprime
to me Mr. thorn seems to be right into the gear of things...and is quite aproachable person when it comes to these subjects..giving his background about ideals of the nature.


Very interesting. Then would you say that this development makes you more or less likely to believe that there is something genuine about Serpo, or less likely?


I myself....I would have to say less likely, there is always a part of me that will give leaveway to the possibility...but, the scales have tipped further to the rightside for me. for now.


[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:14 PM
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Very interesting. Then would you say that this development makes you more or less likely to believe that there is something genuine about Serpo, or less likely?


It wouldn't have bothered me if Bill Ryan knew that his contact - Victor Martinez - also used two other aliases - "Victor Thorn" and "Scott Makufka".

I don't see how Victor Martinez and Victor Thorn aren't one in the same since they appear to have the same email. And "Victor Thorn" has publically acknowledged he's actually "Scott Makufka".

See this story:

www.wingtv.net...

And the plot thickens......



[edit on 14-1-2006 by Shawnna]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:22 PM
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Hello Bill,

I'm certainly following the Serpo information and will write something about its exopolitical implications when certain things clarify in my own mind about how much of it is authenic. As you know, the UFO community is divided over the legitimacy of the information. My own view is that there is a basis of truth in the information sprinkled with the necessary disinformation to maintain plausible deniability. It seems that the information source is pretty sketchy at the moment in terms of the number of DIA insiders involved in leaking the information. In my view, a researcher takes a major risk in pursuing such a case since the sources are not usually that easy to confirm and what we have is a few leaks and outsiders running with it in terms of their own insights. It all then becomes really messy which I see is happening with the Serpo material. That contrasts with whistleblowers such as Robert Dean, Clifford Stone, Charles Hall, etc., who disclose what happened in their own cases and whose integrity and records can be checked. Neverthelss, I'll take a look at the [ATS] forum you suggested and see what I can make of it.

Thanks for helping get the message out and putting together the Serpo website. It's a great initiative and gets people to think. I think this is certainly part of a disclosure process which has been well thought out by those ultimately behind the leakage.

Aloha, Michael



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:35 PM
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I would personally love for "Serpo" to take us to that special place , but I have not seen it yet.

Like you said Bill it is worth it to maintain healthy optimism.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by futureafter

Originally posted by Bill Ryan
One aspect of the problem of overtly trying to discredit it, and making a lot of noise in the process, is that Anon is watching all of this from wherever he is. And assuming he's for real, he could easily lose heart and give up if he feels the world is against him... and if he's for real, then he's definitely been experiencing difficulties (look at the gaps in the posts)... and we also know he's elderly. If he's not for real, then none of this applies. But dare we take that risk? Look at what's potentially at stake here...

Do you see what I mean? That would be a tragedy – for an extraordinary true story of this nature to be killed because of open cynicism. I bet very few other people are thinking in this way. But if we could come up with something that's close to proof – and the AF Col (ret) who confirmed the story is the closest to that for me – then the entire thing could go the other way. We have to be very smart about how we behave with what could be a very sensitive issue.

Best, Bill


Bill,

Personally I see things exactly the opposite. Surely Anon would foresee that making such claims without adequate proof or sufecient data would bring all sorts of the skeptics out of the woodwork. I would hope that the onslaught of people dismissing the story as nothing but another hoax would make Anon more determined than ever to get as much information into the publics eye as possible. If Anon is someone who is going to loose heart in the whole story just because everyone isn't taking everything he's claiming as the 100% truth then I don't think he's the right guy to be bringing us disclosure.

After all, Anon is the one that went public with this, we're simply doing what comes natural when presented with this kind of story, we're questioning the validity of the information until it's either proven legit or proven false.

I don't encourage anyone to dismiss this story, but I also don't think there is anywhere near enough information available to us to be make anyone a complete believer.

[edit on 14-1-2006 by futureafter]


Hi, Futureafter –

The analysis depends on the context in which we think Anon is operating, which we don't know. There's quite a lot of evidence to suggest that Anon (taking him at face value) does not understand PR or what is needed as proof, and it furthermore seems he is not a scientist. He is not operating in a sophisticated way.

It's just possible that he's an elderly man – maybe in his 80s – who's doing his best, and is coming up against a brick wall of objections which he doesn't understand and is bewildered by. My point is that it would be tragic if that turned out to be the case. My whole clarion call from the beginning – as soon as I posted messages myself to Victor's list – was to support the guy and encourage him to continue. I guess others just enjoy taking potshots... and Serpo is a very easy target.

Of course, other hypotheses lead us to different places... for instance, suggesting that all this is carefully planned to create particular effects. But the very fact the the release is (a) haphazard, (b) contains poor science, (c) is not like any formal document I've ever seen and (d) contains many errors of grammar and spelling – but despite this is confirmed by significant circumstantial evidence that such a project actually existed – suggests to me that Anon may be being supported by elderly colleagues (and other officials who are looking the other way), and that he doesn't have access to the report at all, but is getting his information indirectly.

What I'm saying here is think of your grandfather or great-uncle. It's quite instructive to consider the age that Anon may actually be, assuming he was active in or around the project. If he was 35 in 1965, he'd be 75 now. If he was 45 in 1965, he'd be 85 now. 70 seems the very youngest he could be. Why should we assume that this man, trying to do what he thinks is the best and right thing, understands the principles of PR in the twenty-first century?

Best, Bill



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 12:06 AM
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Bill, we are Merely looking for the facts, though if people are "trying" to discredit this..its because..its our ultimate goal of seeking the truth..and the internet, for some of us is our only map in this Labyrinth.

let, me straight ask you. Is Mr. Martinez, Mr. Thorn?

New World Order laws?




[edit on 15-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 01:12 AM
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Post the pics of those little oompa loompa bastards. Post them right now! Do it!




posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by Centrist

Originally posted by waffleprime
to me Mr. thorn seems to be right into the gear of things...and is quite aproachable person when it comes to these subjects..giving his background about ideals of the nature.


Very interesting. Then would you say that this development makes you more or less likely to believe that there is something genuine about Serpo, or less likely?



That's a good question.

If Victor Martinez and Victor Thorn are in fact the same person, I would think it is less likely that any data passing through Victor's/Scott's hands would emerge untainted, though this should not have any measurable impact on the actual significance of the event, considering the number of current and former DIA and/or OSI persons backing the story. If Serpo is real, we are witnessing (at the very least a quasi-sanctioned) Disclosure. On the other hand, if Serpo is a fabrication, given all the facts at hand, it most likely represents a coordinated release of disinformation, in which case we are still most likely witnessing activities pertaining to Disclosure.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by sdrumrunner

Originally posted by Centrist

Originally posted by waffleprime
to me Mr. thorn seems to be right into the gear of things...and is quite aproachable person when it comes to these subjects..giving his background about ideals of the nature.


Very interesting. Then would you say that this development makes you more or less likely to believe that there is something genuine about Serpo, or less likely?



That's a good question.

If Victor Martinez and Victor Thorn are in fact the same person, I would think it is less likely that any data passing through Victor's/Scott's hands would emerge untainted, though this should not have any measurable impact on the actual significance of the event, considering the number of current and former DIA and/or OSI persons backing the story. If Serpo is real, we are witnessing (at the very least a quasi-sanctioned) Disclosure. On the other hand, if Serpo is a fabrication, given all the facts at hand, it most likely represents a coordinated release of disinformation, in which case we are still most likely witnessing activities pertaining to Disclosure.



I couldn't of said it better! great post. I'm kinda glad if he is Mr. thorn..which I'm prettys ure he is. because it answers alot of questions and mysteries surrounding this story



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 08:13 AM
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Hi, All:

1) I've written to Victor asking for any clarity he can offer about Victor Thorn apparently being associated with his e-mail address on that one piece. I'll let you know the response.

But...

If you look on www.thebyteshow.com... , Victor Thorn's e-mail is given there as sisyphus1285@cs.com.

The same address is also here: www.wingtv.net... (a scanned image of an e-mail to Thorn).

Victor Martinez has only ever had Web TV. He's not very computer literate, and cheerfully admits this; he doesn't have and never has had a proper PC with an e-mail client such as Outlook. So he would not have had any other ISP than his current one.

Google ["Victor Thorn" + e-mail] to check this out.

2) I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but I visited Serpentime's poll thread. A better poll than mine! Good work.

I completed the online poll:

D: Not sure.
A: An authentic "leak".

Best, Bill



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 08:36 AM
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Hi, All:

Two forum members have kindly offered a hand with analysing the Serpo website visitor data. Just letting you know this is under way – they or I will report back with whatever is found. Many thanks to them for their willingness to help.

Best, Bill



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by chelseafan1

my question for you is:

Do you have any of these emails in your junk folder, trash folder, stash folder whatever folder, and if so, would you be willing to dump them off onto us here at ATS for further study?

If you really have tons of the stuff, I'd be happy to post it all on webpages for people to pick through...

I can be reached at torbtown.com

thanks!

rock on
twj


Afraid not. I am not really on Victors E-mail list. I made it up. The thing is you Americans(also to include Canadians) can be a bit gullible and as soon as you hear a British accent you become a bit submissive and will believe anything you are told. I thought I would give Bill a good old fashioned British kick up the arse by having a go at him and see what happened. I think some good came out of it. His replies gave a little more clarity about Victors list and cleared up a few uncertainties.

I apoligise if i have been a dishonest bastard.:

ADMIN EDIT: This member has been BANNED for intentionally making false statements on AboveTopSecret.com. We'll decide later if he gets back in. Springer...

[edit on 1-15-2006 by Springer]



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 10:34 AM
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and the plot thickens!!

By, all mean, we are not merely believing what he says...were analyzing his sites claims, deciphering credential from non-credential...looking for proof with out making brash judgements. As, the moniker of this site maintains if you don't already know chelseyfan



DENY IGNORANCE

[edit on 15-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by chelseafan1
Afraid not. I am not really on Victors E-mail list. I made it up.


I hate you. No seriously, I really do.

People like you do not belong on a board like this. Further posts by you will not be read by me. Welcome to my ignore list.



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by chelseafan1
I am not really on Victors E-mail list. I made it up. The thing is you Americans(also to include Canadians) can be a bit gullible and as soon as you hear a British accent you become a bit submissive and will believe anything you are told.


If you go back and read my responses to your original post, you'll see why I'm not particularly surprised by this. I agree that most people are gullible, but I wouldn't make that generalization on this forum -- there are people from many countries on this forum that are gullible and people from many countries that are not.

Personally, I think you could have found a better way to make your point without having to post statements which you know to be false. I suspect that Enrikez isn't alone in his feelings either...



posted on Jan, 15 2006 @ 12:40 PM
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Has been banned until further notice. We really don't need childish huxsters trying to play mind games.

It's just not cricket and it violates one of the MAJOR promises of this site.

Springer...

[edit on 1-15-2006 by Springer]



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