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Project Serpo: Postings by "Anonymous" -- Breaking news?

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posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 04:25 PM
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Mr. Ryan,

First, thank you for taking the time to continue contributing to this thread.**

In a message reportedly written to Don D. by Victor Martinez on Dec. 17, 2005, Victor writes, "The SERPO.org web site has also been visited by the CIA and this stream contains one contact at the White House NSC."

Can you confirm this claim, and if so, would you be willing to share your web log reports with us here at ATS?

Such data would, at the very least, strongly validate several of the claims which provide circumstantial support of the Serpo story. This would also serve to validate the continued interest and effort put forth by those of us who continue in our collective search for the truth.

Thank you in advance.

source

Also, with regards to the following post:


Originally posted by Unplugged
In case some of you have not read this yet in your messege box from the admins:


Also covered, another "supposedly" covert government program called "Project Serpo" for which Freedom Of Information Act documents are expected to be released within in days.



I'm glad you mentioned this. If, as Centrist suggest's, there exists project documentation which as per EO 12958 recently became declassified and is legally availble for public dissemination, could we not request documentation with regards to Report 80HQD893-020 through the FOIA?

Mr. Ryan, are you aware of any effort underway to submit such a request, or any other such effort to obtain any additional independent confirmation?

Thanks again...

**Not only have you made yourself accessible, you have remained so for the duration of this ordeal. Please accept the sincere gratitude of another member here at ATS.
And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I think credit, in part, goes out to the members here at ATS who have collectively and proactively continued to foster an atmosphere conducive to the continued, objective discussion of this subject. Over the last week I have read each and every post in the preceding 66 pages, and with rare exception, find it completely lacking in the egotistical intrusions that, as an outsider, appear to dominate the discusisons within certain circles of the UFO community (which only serves to convolute the message).


EDIT: To reduce generalization and correct spelling

[edit on 14-1-2006 by sdrumrunner]




posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 05:49 PM
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Chelseafan wrote:

From the responses in this post it seems most people are keeping an open mind but I can't help thinking that you guys are being taken for a bit of a ride by Bill Ryan. He seems to be almost selling the serpo story like some kind of promotional publicist. The reason I say this is that he has only presented one side of the case and has not included a lot of information that I have seen from the E-mail list that contradicts and discredits Serpo.
emphasis mine

Excellent post and I concur completely.

Regarding the passage in bold above, there is a lot of evidence that Bill (or someone else) has been posting links to many different non-related websites pushing the serpo.org site.

An example of this can be found here: h0bbel.p0ggel.org...

I've listened to the Jerry Pippin radio interview and Bill displays a remarkable knowledge of the case considering he is only passing on the info second hand. I suppose one can say that's because he's read the transcripts extensively, but if you listen to the interview you might see (hear) what I mean.

He does seem to be popping up here, there and everywhere - odd when you consider the fact that his initial involvement was to step forward and offer to collate the information all in one place, i.e. the serpo.org website. Above and beyond the call of duty for someone 'only' acting as a webmaster.


The first thing to say is that Victors list is anything but a "Who's who of uofology" anybody can join it by sending an E-mail to victorgm@webtv.net. I only joined because I am interested in the subject.


Yes, my thoughts exactly. Bill really emphasises this in the interview too. I sent Victor an email informing him of a number of websites that had published a list of email addresses (from his list), along with some nasty comments and the next thing I know, my private email is forwarded to the entire list with Victor bigging me up as some kind of freedom fighter!?! Now I'm getting a ton of emails each day along with a bucketful of spam that I had previously never had a problem with.


BTW, some of Victor's own comments to the articles he forwards to the list have to be seen to be believed. Trust me.


I am not neccessarily trying to discredit Serpo. I am only saying that the information presented seems to be being managed by Bill Ryan almost like a spin doctor with the support of Mr Doty, and that many other veterans of Ufo research either ignore it or have called it a "fairytale" or "worthless tripe".


I agree entirely. I'm not saying Bill is a bad person, i've had a couple of emails off him and he comes across as a very pleasant and intelligent chap. His behaviour however can certainly be classed as suspicious considering his 'webmaster' status. It is a veritable marketing extravaganza


I have discovered some other information which is highly relevant to this case but I will hold off from posting until I have uncovered some more details. The way it looks at the moment though - if my information is verified it will put to bed this whole business once and for all.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by Unplugged
In case some of you have not read this yet in your messege box from the admins:


Also covered, another "supposedly" covert government program called "Project Serpo" for which Freedom Of Information Act documents are expected to be released within in days.




I wonder where the Admins got this information... would certaily help to know if they are not pulling stuff out of their behinds. I doubt that ofcourse, funny thought though...

This message was in reference to their latest podcast, 2 out of 3 Amigos. I just listened to it and Skeptic Overlord and Springer talked quite a bit about Project Serpo (after Project Northwood). But he didn’t mean they “knew” of any documents being released. You can listen to it and you will understand what he meant.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 06:39 PM
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IMO, if I was given this information, and I was basically given the task to "let loose the dogs" I think I would be making my mark known as well..especially if it was something I felt passionate about. If Bill Ryan beleives "this is it, the turning point" well that would give him every reason to go beyond the call of duty, I reflect this on my on view if I truely beleived in what was there in front of me. but, for me it isn't there in gold brass so I remain skeptic of this...as any logic thinking should require. There is something quite Crptic behind the scenes here..and I'm glad people are rooting it out.

I don't know what to make of this. but, found an article thing?
with victor martinez with a conversatio about bob Lazarr www.frontpagemag.com...


[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:05 PM
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I have discovered some other information which is highly relevant to this case but I will hold off from posting until I have uncovered some more details. The way it looks at the moment though - if my information is verified it will put to bed this whole business once and for all.


I think I know what you are reffering too but I don't wish to say because it could be deemed libelous here in the UK if it is not true.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:21 PM
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chelseafan1:

If you've read through the entire thread (which I doubt and I don't blame you even a tiny bit 'cause it's a looooong windy thread, but maybe you did *shrugs*) you may be aware that Victor recieves his informations, writes whatever it is he writes, sends it out, then everything gets deleted.

Bill posts on serpo whatever Bill posts on serpo and has not offered any more information....

my question for you is:

Do you have any of these emails in your junk folder, trash folder, stash folder whatever folder, and if so, would you be willing to dump them off onto us here at ATS for further study?

If you really have tons of the stuff, I'd be happy to post it all on webpages for people to pick through...

I can be reached at torbtown.com

thanks!

rock on
twj



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:24 PM
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As an aside, I have NOT recieved any messages regarding FIOA/serpo documents... last message I got was for a podcast from 2 of 3 amigos or some such...

I KNOW people will keep us posted about FIOA docs, but, well, just keep us posted on that, okay? *laughs*

okay

duty calls
twj



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:28 PM
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[edit on 14/1/2006 by rai76]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:30 PM
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I have a question..victors mailing address..the webtv one....is he the sole properitor to that address?

who's victor thorn?

[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by waffleprime
I have a question..victors mailing address..the webtv one....is he the sole properitor to that address?


I would presume so. It is his name and I would be very surprised if it were shared amongst more than one person.

Why do you ask?



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 07:52 PM
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I don't know what kind of tree I'm barking up here

www.highstrangeness.tv...

hmm..has it been discussed already that mr. martinez and mr. thorn might be the same person at all?


or am I crazy

911review.com...
as to what sites point to (not just the one I linked to)..I have no idea, this thorn character has faked his name? from what thier saying. Makavelism anyone?


I have no clue abound the credibility of all this. but, this is what I'm digging up anywho.

another weird (coincidence?) I seen was all the sites that have a connection to mr. thorn to some degree seem to handle thier contacting of them by signing up for a newsletter/mail listing (like serpo?) of sorts....or is that just common? I'm unsure of this.



[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by chelseafan1
From the responses in this post it seems most people are keeping an open mind but I can't help thinking that you guys are being taken for a bit of a ride by Bill Ryan. He seems to be almost selling the serpo story like some kind of promotional publicist. The reason I say this is that he has only presented one side of the case and has not included a lot of information that I have seen from the E-mail list that contradicts and discredits Serpo.

The first thing to say is that Victors list is anything but a "Who's who of uofology" anybody can join it by sending an E-mail to victorgm@webtv.net. I only joined because I am interested in the subject. I am not a researcher, I have no degrees(I'm not even sure if I can spell degree) and my 13 year old nephew is also on Victors list. It is true that a lot of well known names are on this list. However prior to the Serpo story breaking lot of them asked to be removed and were complaining because Victor would not take them off the list and these E-mails were essentially spam clogging up their inboxes. (One very well known member of the Ufo community on the list did not even know about Serpo until a few days ago because he had rerouted the E-mails to his bulk folder).

The general consensus is that somebody on the list is playing a joke on Victor and trying to make him look stupid and gullible. The person that people suspect has been named although this person denies it. Some others accuse Victor of inventing the Serpo affair to increase his own standing and to help him get in with the in crowd many of whom did not want to be on his list and were added without their permission.

I am not neccessarily trying to discredit Serpo. I am only saying that the information presented seems to be being managed by Bill Ryan almost like a spin doctor with the support of Mr Doty, and that many other veterans of Ufo research either ignore it or have called it a "fairytale" or "worthless tripe".

Hi, chelseafan1 –

I think you must have missed my post of a couple of days ago, in answer to a question asking what the poll results were which I'd conducted on Victor's list over Christmas – specifically because I wanted to know what people really thought. Here's my response again:

----------
Very varied. Opinion of proportion of truth varied from 0% to 100%. Basically there were two clusters: one cluster which was 0–25%, and another (exactly balancing) cluster which was 75%–100%. The mean was almost exactly 50%... which actually means nothing at all: like having your head in the oven and your feet in the fridge and claiming that you're at the perfect temperature.

The only thing to conclude is that there was not enough data for people to conclude anything logically and that people's feelings and intuitions were being called into play to make their judgments for them. (Nothing wrong with that, except that we're still short of proof enough with which to go to the NY Times.)
----------

I think that's pretty balanced, actually! It simply means the jury is out. In fact the balance was almost exactly evenly poised – the mean (average) of the results was 51%.

I am promoting reasons to suspend disbelief and simply not dismiss the story for reasons which have not been carefully thought through. It takes one line for someone to cry hoax without thinking, but several paragraphs to explain carefully why this might be premature.

Some people on Victor's list (and the allied community) believe it's a hoax for some interesting reasons. For instance, Jack Sarfatti says it's a loony lefty plot to discredit the government (Jack is very right wing). Up until today, that is – he now says it's a plot by the Church of Scientology. I believe I'm justified in not reporting these points of view to this forum, which deserves better. I like Jack, but he's not studied the material, which he'll cheerfully confess to. He dismisses it out of hand because he says the physics is bad. One or two (no more than that) have attacked Victor, saying he's making it up. That also is so unintelligent a thing to say that it does not bear bringing to this forum.

I've never claimed or insisted that it's all 100% true. There are obvious questions to be asked about some of the data; any intelligent person can see that. As I've explained before, I'm trying to redress the balance. I want to keep the story alive... not because I'm benefiting personally at all (believe me, my life has taken a big hit since embarking on this!), but I believe this may be important, and as I say on the website home page, only if Anon is a blatant malevolent hoaxer should this story be dismissed. I don't believe this is the case.

You see, just suppose this is 80% true and 20% false (I got a contact form message from someone purporting to be at LANL who said exactly that, further claiming that this was part of an organized disclosure program. I replied immediately to ask him to say more, but it bounced). First, even if it is 20% false – which, if you think about it, would easily account for all the anomalies – this is not necessarily Anon's doing. We have to remember he may be given the information by someone else, or be consulting his or another person's memory. And we also have to use our understanding of what happens in the Intel world. We know there are factions which oppose disclosure. What might they do to discredit Anon? Might they not slip him some false information in the the guise of someone helping him out a little? Who knows? The fact is that we don't. We need more information.

Second, if it was somehow officially announced that it was 20% false, there would be many with a self-satisfied smile on their face who were saying all the time that is was "disinformation". But this completely loses sight of the fact that it also means that 80% would be true. And 80% truth in a claim that 12 astronauts visited another planet for 13 years in 1965-78 is still the story of the millennium. Even 10% truth would be the story of the millennium if it were confirmed!

So (in my opinion) there's some slightly lazy thinking here. It's not simple, and we don't know the context in which Anon is operating. The whole thing is sufficiently important to hold a debate about it while we wait for more information, or official confirmation. My entire stance is don't dismiss this. That's what I'm working for. I'm personally convinced this is not a wholesale fraud. There's definitely something behind this... and I want to know what it is.

Victor's list, besides no doubt containing people like you and me, contains UFOlogy researchers, lecturers and authors, a significant number of spooks and ex-spooks, other intel operatives, people who worked at Area 51, USG scientists (a number with active Top Secret clearances), doctors, linguists, psychologists, anthropologists, a former CIA director, and even a guy involved in the JFK assassination (no, I don't know who that is!). Since Anon started his releases in early November the number on the list has swollen from 120 to about 220, so of course the list has become diluted with bystanders. But I'm sure you'll get my point.

It's true that many of these names are silent in the entire public forum. But a significant number are active in smaller trusted subgroups of their own creation. I know about some of those because I'm cc'd, but you may not be included in those. Many people do not want their views widely circulated to the entire list, and I understand the reasons for that. In fact, just to make a synchronistic point, I got a long and courteous message from Dr Michael Salla just two minutes ago telling me he was following the story very closely. But he has never once posted to the whole list.

I'm interested in what you say here:


The general consensus is that somebody on the list is playing a joke on Victor and trying to make him look stupid and gullible. The person that people suspect has been named although this person denies it.

This ("the general consensus is...") is not accurate: c.f. my survey results. Can you also tell us who that person (what people suspect) is alleged to be? I ask this because I can't remember anything that resembles what you say. You make some fairly wild and general statements, but this is a SCIENTIFIC forum – meaning that we seek detailed data and examine it carefully and we need to stick to facts. There is no place for "everyone says" generalities which are emotionally based and not founded in the detailed facts.

You also said:



many other veterans of Ufo research either ignore it or have called it a "fairytale" or "worthless tripe".

This also is inaccurate. Who said that? One person, is my guess. Possibly two. That is not "many veterans of UFO research". Chelseafan1, you're not helping us here! Can you see that?

In this reply, I'm not "managing" the information. I have nothing to gain from this. But I'm a crusader for the truth and for accuracy. 90% of my posts here (if not more) have been in detailed answer to specific questions. I've not missed one of them as far as I'm aware – but I've not otherwise been banging a drum or holding forth. I was invited on this forum to help out if I could, and I'll continue to do that.

I'm in personal touch with some highly intelligent and well-qualified people – from whom who you would not have seen any messages – and I can promise you that they are as puzzled as many of us are on this forum, and we spend a lot of time bouncing things around. One such, whom I respect highly and has a resume to die for, hypothesizes seriously that this is an expensive and elaborate sociological experiment. I disagree with him and explain why, and we remain friends.

In that same spirit, this forum is a credit to the art of intelligent, informed debate. This is the only thing I stand for. I have no other agenda.

Chelseafan1 (Are you a Londoner, btw? I am also a Chelsea fan), kindly pardon my rant. This is not personal (how could it be, when I don't know you?) but my plea is for exactitude, careful thought, creative thinking. The posts I enjoy reading here are those which table points I've not yet thought of – and there have been quite a few of those here. My reply to Michael Salla, btw, has included the specific recommendation that he read these 67+ pages before he writes his exopolitical paper on Serpo. I think he'll appreciate the visit, but will need to put the coffee on first...!

Best, Bill



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by waffleprime
I don't know what kind of tree I'm barking up here

www.highstrangeness.tv...

hmm..has it been discussed already that mr. martinez and mr. thorn might be the same person at all?


or am I crazy


[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]


Wow, Great find!
Now I understand the reason for your question lol.

Victor Thorn's real name is Scott Makufka according to this page:
69.28.73.17...

Maybe the email address was posted in error by the website editor? I know it's not very likely but the whole thing seems bizarre.

Victor Thorn, or Scott Makufka or whatever his name is is well known on the Internet.



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by waffleprime
I don't know what kind of tree I'm barking up here

www.highstrangeness.tv...

hmm..has it been discussed already that mr. martinez and mr. thorn might be the same person at all?


or am I crazy

911review.com...
as to what sites point to (not just the one I linked to)..I have no idea, this thorn character has faked his name? from what thier saying. Makavelism anyone?


I have no clue abound the credibility of all this. but, this is what I'm digging up anywho.

another weird (coincidence?) I seen was all the sites that have a connection to mr. thorn to some degree seem to handle thier contacting of them by signing up for a newsletter/mail listing (like serpo?) of sorts....or is that just common? I'm unsure of this.



[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]



Bill, if your still reading, can u explain the coincidence between mr. thorn having the same address listed as mr. martinez?



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by chelseafan1
Centrist. I tried to send you a PM but I can't because I dont have 20 posts. So I will write some of it here if I can remember it.

I have read my post again and realised that I did not make the meaning entirely clear. I was not suggessting that Mr Ryan and Mr Doty are in some way colluding together. I meant that Doty has supported the legitimacy of Serpo by doing the Coast to Coast show and putting his name behind it. I just found it interesting given the fact he has spread disinformation before that he was one of the few people on the list that came out and strongly supported Serpo whilst others didnt commit themselves or said it was bogus.

Second half!


I apologize for the rough (but fair!) tackles in my previous post. Here comes another one:

I think I've also explained in a previous post that Rick was invited on to the C2C show by myself, after I was wondering how on earth I could do a three hour interview on my own in front of ten million people when I'd never done anything remotely like that before.

I asked Victor who he'd recommend. He suggested Paul McGovern, Gene Loscowski, Jim Marrs, Whitley Strieber, Dan Smith, Howard Menger, Bob Reid and Rick Doty. I e-mailed them all to ask if they could support me. Dan Smith volunteered to help if I couldn't find anyone else (nice man). Whitley Strieber said OK. Jim Marrs said OK, but we then missed each other prior to the show and he never made it. Rick Doty said OK. Bob Reid said no thanks, Dan Smith withdrew because Whitley Strieber and Rick Doty were in, and Paul McGovern and Gene Loscowski didn't reply. I state this exactly and accurately (c.f. above!) because otherwise the idea could mistakenly take root that Rick Doty somehow muscled his way in. Absolutely not so.

Best, Bill



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by sdrumrunner
Mr. Ryan,

First, thank you for taking the time to continue contributing to this thread.**

In a message reportedly written to Don D. by Victor Martinez on Dec. 17, 2005, Victor writes, "The SERPO.org web site has also been visited by the CIA and this stream contains one contact at the White House NSC."

Can you confirm this claim, and if so, would you be willing to share your web log reports with us here at ATS?

Such data would, at the very least, strongly validate several of the claims which provide circumstantial support of the Serpo story. This would also serve to validate the continued interest and effort put forth by those of us who continue in our collective search for the truth.

Thank you in advance.

source

Also, with regards to the following post:


Originally posted by Unplugged
In case some of you have not read this yet in your messege box from the admins:


Also covered, another "supposedly" covert government program called "Project Serpo" for which Freedom Of Information Act documents are expected to be released within in days.



I'm glad you mentioned this. If, as Centrist suggest's, there exists project documentation which as per EO 12958 recently became declassified and is legally availble for public dissemination, could we not request documentation with regards to Report 80HQD893-020 through the FOIA?

Mr. Ryan, are you aware of any effort underway to submit such a request, or any other such effort to obtain any additional independent confirmation?

Thanks again...

**Not only have you made yourself accessible, you have remained so for the duration of this ordeal. Please accept the sincere gratitude of another member here at ATS.
And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that I think credit, in part, goes out to the members here at ATS who have collectively and proactively continued to foster an atmosphere conducive to the continued, objective discussion of this subject. Over the last week I have read each and every post in the preceding 66 pages, and with rare exception, find it completely lacking in the egotistical intrusions that, as an outsider, appear to dominate the discusisons within certain circles of the UFO community (which only serves to convolute the message).


Hi, sdrumrunner –

Many thanks. I don't have the resources or experience to evaluate the weblog. I welcome support from anyone on this forum who could help (might be a big task). I can give you password access to the control panel and then you could help yourself... if anyone would like to do that, please send me a U2U or contact me on the website contact form. I'd love to know who's been visiting the site.

FOIA requests: I have no information.

Your points about the forum: I fully concur. I'd not still be here otherwise – credit to all here.

Best, Bill



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by Bill Ryan


Originally posted by sdrumrunner
Mr. Ryan,

...In a message reportedly written to Don D. by Victor Martinez on Dec. 17, 2005, Victor writes, "The SERPO.org web site has also been visited by the CIA and this stream contains one contact at the White House NSC."

Can you confirm this claim, and if so, would you be willing to share your web log reports with us here at ATS?



Hi, sdrumrunner –

Many thanks. I don't have the resources or experience to evaluate the weblog. I welcome support from anyone on this forum who could help (might be a big task). I can give you password access to the control panel and then you could help yourself... if anyone would like to do that, please send me a U2U or contact me on the website contact form. I'd love to know who's been visiting the site.



Hi Bill,

Thank you for the prompt reply, as well for the offer of transparency. I am however curious -- if you personally are unaware of who has been visiting your site, how exactly did Victor become privy to such information?

Thank you once again.

Best Regards,

sdrumrunner



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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I think I've Managed to convince myself that Mr. Martinez is Mr. Thorn...and thats connection between Burisch and the nwo/majestic/illuminati save me from canada bander...but, this is my opinion. I'm not doubting serpo yet, but..but, for me I think the slopes starting to edge downwards. I need to hear some other peoples thought besides my own. so I can make a valid judgement though..





[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]

[edit on 14-1-2006 by waffleprime]



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by Zep Tepi
Chelseafan wrote:

From the responses in this post it seems most people are keeping an open mind but I can't help thinking that you guys are being taken for a bit of a ride by Bill Ryan. He seems to be almost selling the serpo story like some kind of promotional publicist. The reason I say this is that he has only presented one side of the case and has not included a lot of information that I have seen from the E-mail list that contradicts and discredits Serpo.
emphasis mine

Excellent post and I concur completely.

Regarding the passage in bold above, there is a lot of evidence that Bill (or someone else) has been posting links to many different non-related websites pushing the serpo.org site.

An example of this can be found here: h0bbel.p0ggel.org...

I've listened to the Jerry Pippin radio interview and Bill displays a remarkable knowledge of the case considering he is only passing on the info second hand. I suppose one can say that's because he's read the transcripts extensively, but if you listen to the interview you might see (hear) what I mean.

He does seem to be popping up here, there and everywhere - odd when you consider the fact that his initial involvement was to step forward and offer to collate the information all in one place, i.e. the serpo.org website. Above and beyond the call of duty for someone 'only' acting as a webmaster.


The first thing to say is that Victors list is anything but a "Who's who of uofology" anybody can join it by sending an E-mail to victorgm@webtv.net. I only joined because I am interested in the subject.


Yes, my thoughts exactly. Bill really emphasises this in the interview too. I sent Victor an email informing him of a number of websites that had published a list of email addresses (from his list), along with some nasty comments and the next thing I know, my private email is forwarded to the entire list with Victor bigging me up as some kind of freedom fighter!?! Now I'm getting a ton of emails each day along with a bucketful of spam that I had previously never had a problem with.


BTW, some of Victor's own comments to the articles he forwards to the list have to be seen to be believed. Trust me.


I am not neccessarily trying to discredit Serpo. I am only saying that the information presented seems to be being managed by Bill Ryan almost like a spin doctor with the support of Mr Doty, and that many other veterans of Ufo research either ignore it or have called it a "fairytale" or "worthless tripe".


I agree entirely. I'm not saying Bill is a bad person, i've had a couple of emails off him and he comes across as a very pleasant and intelligent chap. His behaviour however can certainly be classed as suspicious considering his 'webmaster' status. It is a veritable marketing extravaganza


I have discovered some other information which is highly relevant to this case but I will hold off from posting until I have uncovered some more details. The way it looks at the moment though - if my information is verified it will put to bed this whole business once and for all.


Hi, Zep –

Many thanks. Some of this I addressed in my response to chelseafan1.

You did actually make me stop and think: Am I in some fashion behaving in a way I'm not fully aware of? But I don't think I am. FYI, I've not once proactively sought out any platform – I was invited to each of the interviews I've given (four), was invited to join this forum, was invited to edit/comment on an article in UFO magazine which will come out in early February, was invited to speak at the Laughlin UFO Congress, and have today been invited to take part in an ATS podcast. My only proactive action has been to create the website. I'm not gaining anything personally by replying to these posts pretty late at night. I'm just trying to help. What on earth do you think I'm trying to market? And why is this "suspicious"?!

As I said to chelseafan1, this is important. Even if all this is a carefully choreographed plan which ends in the Serpo story being discredited, me being a patsy, and later in 2006 full disclosure emerging from the USG (because the way will have been duly paved), that would delight me – because I want disclosure. Does this make sense? I'm not trying to be right or to promote anything other than the truth – whatever it is. The strong commitment to disclosure is the one thing that – I presume – unites us all.

I'm aware of the staggering number of links to the Serpo site. According to the weblog, there are currently 945 different links to the site. I've not put one of those there. I think it's the story that's doing this... not any one person, and certainly not myself.

Re the information you're researching, please do contact me privately if I can help. Your remarks about my knowing a lot about all this are quite apposite – I've been completely immersed in this for ten weeks now and it's become a kind of (unpaid) full-time job. For example, did anyone notice that Paul McGovern writes "vegatation" and Anon writes "vegatables"? For a while I was convinced that Paul McGovern was Anon (there were other similar smoking guns in the text, which bears apparently fruitful close examination). But I now know that Victor** has cut and pasted the information he's received – from different sources – to such an extent that this conclusion can't be relied upon. And we don't have the source data to check.

So I do entreat anyone with a new angle on this to check it out in every possible way before jumping to a conclusion and starting all kinds of wild goose chases... when a simple question or two could have saved all that trouble and hassle. On the other hand, everything is definitely not known, and therefore by definition there is certainly good research which needs to be done. In my opinion, the best chance for unearthing something quite extraordinary and invaluable is to try to find proof of the veracity of at least parts of the account – not to try and discredit it wholesale. We need real research into the classified projects of the 1960s. Naive armchair sleuthing, when someone suddenly thinks they have a clever idea and that Victor must be inventing it all to embarrass the President, or I must be profiting from all this because I keep on giving interviews, or that it's all a hoax because Rick Doty appeared on the C2C show... is not research. It's terribly unintelligent thinking.

One aspect of the problem of overtly trying to discredit it, and making a lot of noise in the process, is that Anon is watching all of this from wherever he is. And assuming he's for real, he could easily lose heart and give up if he feels the world is against him... and if he's for real, then he's definitely been experiencing difficulties (look at the gaps in the posts)... and we also know he's elderly. If he's not for real, then none of this applies. But dare we take that risk? Look at what's potentially at stake here...

Do you see what I mean? That would be a tragedy – for an extraordinary true story of this nature to be killed because of open cynicism. I bet very few other people are thinking in this way. But if we could come up with something that's close to proof – and the AF Col (ret) who confirmed the story is the closest to that for me – then the entire thing could go the other way. We have to be very smart about how we behave with what could be a very sensitive issue.

Best, Bill

** ...and you're quite right about Victor's screaming headlines. My own personal style would not be to do it that way; in my view, nothng is gained, and much could be lost. But (see earlier posts) Victor is trained in journalism...



posted on Jan, 14 2006 @ 09:43 PM
link   

Bill, if your still reading, can u explain the coincidence between mr. thorn having the same address listed as mr. martinez?

I just read that piece myself, and saw the e-mail address at the bottom – all this is new to me. I've not thought about this for more than a couple of minutes, but I suppose it might be a pseudonym (or a mistake).

Interesting, but why might this be this significant?

Best, Bill



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