Yeah I dont buy this on the grounds that the laws of physics seem to some how not apply to this specific region of space. The universe is symetric. All things we have observeved point to this fact, ie background microwave radiation is practically identical to 4 decimal places everywhere we look in the universe.

Also that they dont understand 'time' as we do, yet they have some how managed to break the speed of light, and the problem of time dilation which is impossible in the sense that you can't just go faster than the speed of light. I still think there are ways around this like bending space.

Time though is variable in nature is imperitive to any advanced civilization, human or alien. Dont tell me they used towers while developing aircraft, space craft, and sciencetific advancements in general.

For some reason I see images of Oompa Loompas when I think about these specific aliens.

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by NinjaCodeMonkey
and worship a God when religion declines as intelligence grows?

I can personally attest to the fact that there are many people with IQ's well above mine (and mine is nothing to spit at) have not had their belief in God shattered by their intellect. In fact, many have been brought back to Him because of it. So I certainly wouldn't use this criteria to blow off reports of a higher civilization.

Ninja - I'm going to have to agree with both redmage and Relentless here. I do believe the "clay hut" issue had been discussed before, and redmage reiterated the point that measuring a lifestyle against what we do here doesn't make any sense. All you have to do is look around you to see we're not getting it right. Living a spartan life does not equate to backward. It could be a choice.

I'll only minimally argue the next point with some one who decided 165 is a "ridiculously low" IQ...BUT

I don't know if you made up the statistical statement or if you read it in cosmology 101...lol, but the more I learn, the more spiritual I become. And I know a lot of folks who are the same way.

One day the scientific community will discover that gravity and spirit are the same and all they had to do was join the spiritual side of the universe with the physical side to get the Unified Theory...

then I'll come back and stick my tongue out at you.

All you have to do is look around you to see we're not getting it right. Living a spartan life does not equate to backward. It could be a choice.

I tend to agree. At some point, the human race will realize that materiality is simply a matter of individual gratification. Spirituality may lead to collective gratification of the species as, only then, will we be able to overcome our prejudices based on differences within our own species and begin to accept the differences among other species. Reading through this thread, I have to wonder whether the rapid-fire debunking of this story isn't entirely about the story.... maybe it's an indication that some are not yet ready for whatever truths lie ahead -- doesn't is seem as though there is some debunking going on because the concept of the alien's society is inconsistent with our own, thus it must not exist?

I am fearful of jumping to conclusions about this story. I read through the postings again last night and can't say that I'm not still intrigued. If we are too quick and harsh in our criticism, we may cause "anonymous" to say "aw, screw it" and realize that people simply aren't ready to hear what he has to say, because they would rather debunk it than deal with realities that illustrate just how little we know about the universe around us.

Then again, maybe this guy is full of beans. I'd rather let him tell the whole story and see how far they are willing/able to take it before passing judgment. I hope others here are willing to do the same.

Originally posted by Centrist
I have to wonder whether the rapid-fire debunking of this story isn't entirely about the story.... maybe it's an indication that some are not yet ready for whatever truths lie ahead -- doesn't is seem as though there is some debunking going on because the concept of the alien's society is inconsistent with our own, thus it must not exist?

I think some of the debunking from me comes from the following:

1.) The lack of anything really "alien" about these aliens other than they're from another planet.
2.) The simplicity of the descriptions of the answers. If anyone were to ask me about God, I'd go on for days about Him and the things He had done for me.
3.) The "piece-meal" hints, allegations, and answers. Like breadcrumbs to see how long the little birds would follow. I'd have written a book and sold it at cost (low or no profit) to get people awake and aware.
4.) The people in the story sound like "characters". What college did these human doctors, and such go to? Do they have families?
5.) Tech = low. Please don't tell me all we learned from these critters is how to make an iPod.

That leads me to thinking about the 8 men to 2 women ratio. Sounds like quite a deal for the ladies, no? "Okay, you two gals will have 10 years on an alien world so you have your pick of 8 specimens of brains and physique to keep you company. Feel free to ah... you know, for science. The first non-earth citizen!"


[edit on 2-12-2005 by saint4God]

Did you see the reference to DIM? i did, and wondered what that could be.
Well this guy done this search, and look at what he came up.


30 November
I have looked up DIM in the military reference manuals. Here is what I gathered:
1. DIM - Defense Intelligence Manual
2. DIM - Digital Intelligence Message (came out in 1992)
3. DIM - Direct Image Message (an intelligence photo term)
4. DIM - Dynometer Instrument Metabolism (have no idea what this is)
5. DIM - Delicate Image Module (some sort of photo analysis machine)
That is all I can find. But my reference material is new. I can't find anything older than 1985.

Just to add to the debate.

Those are all valid concerns to have with regard to such a story, but are they a valid basis for discounting the story until it's completely told?

1.) The lack of anything really "alien" about these aliens other than they're from another planet.

Aren't you creating an artificial and completely subject basis for debunking the story? An alien civilization doesn't have to be alien to us in every way imaginable.

2.) The simplicity of the descriptions of the answers. If anyone were to ask me about God, I'd go on for days about Him and the things He had done for me.

Who asked anyone about god? The supposed informant is allegedly relaying information from a debriefing manual. Just how interested in deities was our government in the 60's? But the manual supposedly spans 3000 pages -- who's to say at this point whether or not there are many pages on gods and spirituality? Also, isn't it rather self-centered to assume that the story is false because the alien may not have been verbose on the same topics you might have pontificated upon? If I was an alien on another planet, I doubt that I would be talking at great lengths about "god", but I'd mention the different religions on my planet and, perhaps, my view.

3.) The "piece-meal" hints, allegations, and answers. Like breadcrumbs to see how long the little birds would follow. I'd have written a book and sold it at cost (low or no profit) to get people awake and aware.

Would you have? Isn't it a little unreasonable to supplant your motivations and intentions for someone's else's as a basis for refuting their claims? And forgive me for saying this, as I don't know you personally, but I often find claims of selflessness and generosity are easy to make until there are dollars left on the table.

4.) The people in the story sound like "characters". What college did these human doctors, and such go to? Do they have families?

I can't imagine that those would be details of immediate signficance if this person is trying to tell a legitimate story. Also, how do these people sound like "characters" -- the story is quite weak on plot and character development at this point

5.) Tech = low. Please don't tell me all we learned from these critters is how to make an iPod.

And yet the story is premised upon the alien's ability to draw power from a vacuum and traverse the vast distances of interstellar space. I'd imagine they could hack out an iPod. After all, if the story is true, then they appear to have managed to develop weapons powerful enough to destroy an entire civilization that they were at war with. The fact that they aren't living the Jetson's lifestyle (or are they? Do we have those details?) doesn't bother me.

But as I've said in previous messages, we need to put our personal beliefs and prejudices aside and evaluate a claim in a fair, open-minded, and impartial manner. So far, there's very little factual evidence open for attack. Some of the physics is clearly suspicious and some of the statements are inconsistent. But remember, there are still societies on OUR planet that live in mud (adobe) huts, live off the land, and hunt for their food. There are others that live in high-density, high-technology housing and are wired into cellular networks, the internet, and a multi-gigawatt power grid. If someone were going to another world and reporting on us, wouldn't our own truth be a valid subject of debunking?




[edit on 2-12-2005 by Centrist]

Originally posted by Centrist
Those are all valid concerns to have with regard to such a story, but are they a valid basis for discounting the story until it's completely told?

If the wo/man has something to say s/he needs to come out with it. If s/he's playing the "secret" game, I seriously doubt there are any real secrets.

Originally posted by Centrist
Aren't you creating an artificial and completely subject basis for debunking the story?

Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm testing. Every analytical mind should test.

Originally posted by Centrist
An alien civilization doesn't have to be alien to us in every way imaginable.

Can they at least be alien in some way?

Originally posted by Centrist
Who asked anyone about god?

Nobody on this thread, much to my and I'm sure His, dismay. Anyway, it's called an "analogy". Analogies are good for drawing a comparison between to processes or events in a way that's relatable to a larger audience.

Originally posted by Centrist
The supposed informant is allegedly relaying information from a debriefing manual. Just how interested in deities was our government in the 60's? But the manual supposedly spans 3000 pages -- who's to say at this point whether or not there are many pages on gods and spirituality? Also, isn't it rather self-centered to assume that the story is false because the alien may not have been verbose on the same topics you might have pontificated upon? If I was an alien on another planet, I doubt that I would be talking at great lengths about "god", but I'd mention the different religions on my planet and, perhaps, my view.

This story would be a strong case in favor of God (since the aliens are so much like us, it points to a common Creator), however, I want to see the 3,000 page document thumped on my desk before giving it the slightest consideration.

Originally posted by Centrist
Would you have?

Yeah.

Originally posted by Centrist
Isn't it a little unreasonable to supplant your motivations and intentions for someone's else's as a basis for refuting their claims? And forgive me for saying this, as I don't know you personally, but I often find claims of selflessness and generosity are easy to make until there are dollars left on the table.

Test me. If you're not going to test me, I don't think you have any basis for thowing me into the catagory of the "often claims". Apologies if you've been hurt by selfishness and miserness in the past, but as you said, you don't know me personally.

Originally posted by Centrist
I can't imagine that those would be details of immediate signficance if this person is trying to tell a legitimate story. Also, how do these people sound like "characters" -- the story is quite weak on plot and character development at this point

I agree that it is weak. Not all science fiction is good. I've acquired a fascination for bad Sci-Fi, but usually in movies.

Originally posted by Centrist
And yet the story is premised upon the alien's ability to draw power from a vacuum and traverse the vast distances of interstellar space.

With what, Warp speed? Star Trek came out decades before this trip. In fact, Edgar Allan Poe was pretty specific on how to get to the moon and back by hot air balloon. It's convincing with the math even in this day and age unless you have a Master's Degree in Physics.

Originally posted by Centrist
I'd imagine they could hack out an iPod. After all, if the story is true, then they appear to have managed to develop weapons powerful enough to destroy an entire civilization that they were at war with. The fact that they aren't living the Jetson's lifestyle (or are they? Do we have those details?) doesn't bother me.

10 years of study and we get an iPod. Lovely. Let's keep our scientists here for the next 10 and we should be able to come up with better on our own.

Originally posted by Centrist
If someone were going to another world and reporting on us, wouldn't our own truth be a valid subject of debunking?

I read Titor for quite some time going "hm...". A lot more interesting detail (true or false) than our friends from Rectum Prime.


[edit on 2-12-2005 by saint4God]

I posted earlier about the length of time for the exchange. Doesn't anyone else find this suspect?

Originally posted by Hal9000
The thing I find strange about this exchange program is the length of time. Do you really think people would be sent out for a ten-year stay on the first trip? I don't think so. Even if it takes 9 months to get there, the first stay would be a short one to start, maybe a month or two, then gradually work up to maybe a year. To go to some other unknown planet and expect to survive ten years is expecting too much.

Originally posted by Hal9000
I posted earlier about the length of time for the exchange. Doesn't anyone else find this suspect?

Originally posted by Hal9000
The thing I find strange about this exchange program is the length of time. Do you really think people would be sent out for a ten-year stay on the first trip? I don't think so. Even if it takes 9 months to get there, the first stay would be a short one to start, maybe a month or two, then gradually work up to maybe a year. To go to some other unknown planet and expect to survive ten years is expecting too much.

Possibly. But one would think that if they have the tech. to get to our planet, they would also have the tech to be able to keep 'earthlings' alive via breathing systems, protective clothing to certain kinds of heat/cold.

there was supposedly 158 trainees that they were grooming for this mission, but not as of 1956 so they would have no idea who the names would be on the final TEAM list. Therefore they would have either redacted all the names of the 158 and "removed" those not choosen. Or this aircraft loss of 16 crew is just a simple coincidence.

Since I highly doubt that the training and qualification for this mission lasted longer then 8 years and if I recall was something in the order of 3 to 4 years for the selection period to the time when the "TEAM" was actually choosen. Then the timing for the air incidents and loss of crew do on match up. In addition not all of the 16 members were chosen from the airforce. There were navy and army personal as well.

Originally posted by Hal9000
signature
Living Will: A man and his wife were sitting in the living room and he said to her,

"Just so you know I never want to live in a vegetative state, dependent on some machine and fluids from a bottle. If that ever happens, just pull the plug."

His wife got up, unplugged the TV and threw out all of his beer.

Hehee! That thar is funny! *chuckles...then clams down* What were we talking about again?

Therefore they would have either redacted all the names of the 158 and "removed" those not choosen. Or this aircraft loss of 16 crew is just a simple coincidence.

Not necessarily. Just because 158 may have been chosen for consideration, it doesn't mean that any of those people were ever informed of their selection. They may have been identified, but the actual training probably wouldn't have been initiated for more than a handful of people... and of those people, they might not have known of their ultimate mission until the final 16 were selected. Thus, there may have been no need to "sheep dip" more than the actual people selected.

I don't whether Val's latest post suggests that the plane crash was merely a coincidence, but given that the names of the people on board the missing plane were published, it may mean just that.

[edit on 2-12-2005 by Centrist]

I enjoyed reading that.

The story of the Ebens, regardless of it's authenticity, was the first UFO/Aliens related theory I've read in a long time that wasn't about a species that was out to kill, control or eat us!

Nice to read a positive story for a change.

Originally posted by noslenwerd
Possibly. But one would think that if they have the tech. to get to our planet, they would also have the tech to be able to keep 'earthlings' alive via breathing systems, protective clothing to certain kinds of heat/cold.

That's a lot to assume, when lives are at stake. As an analogy, consider the approach taken during the space race. First we sent a monkey, then the first human flight was 15 minutes, then the next flight a little longer, ect. ect..

To send people out on a ten year mission to an alien planet the first time out is just not believable IMHO.

Valhal, kudos on the research there, that is interesting. This is what makes me think there could be a kernel of truth mixed in with a lot of disinformation.

Originally posted by saint4God
Hehee! That thar is funny! *chuckles...then clams down* What were we talking about again?

Thanks, it busted me up too.

Originally posted by Centrist

Not necessarily. Just because 158 may have been chosen for consideration, it doesn't mean that any of those people were ever informed of their selection. They may have been identified, but the actual training probably wouldn't have been initiated for more than a handful of people... and of those people, they might not have known of their ultimate mission until the final 16 were selected. Thus, there may have been no need to "sheep dip" more than the actual people selected.

Here's another thought. I'm not sure the "selected" were told exactly what their missions was until right before the April 24, 1964 date. And this is why I say that...

They went through 6 months of training at various SAC stations (Sheppard, Ellsworth, and Dow) to get "cross-specialization". Then Anonymous states:

The Team was allowed about 15 days off during this time period, but they were closely guarded. Just prior to their trip, each team member was transported to the United States Disciplinary Barracks, Ft. Leavenworth, KS and confined in locked cells. This prevented them from communicating with anyone from the outside world and kept each under close watch.

Okay, so they were "closely guarded" during the 6 month training, but admittedly allowed 15 days "off" during that time as well. But just prior to the April 24, 1964 date that should have been their "pick up date", they were locked in cells in Leavenworth and remained there to "prevent them from communicating" with anyone.

This sounds to me like they were told they were going on a 10 year mission that they may never return from, that they'd have to lose their identity, etc., but it wasn't until just before they were originally scheduled to leave that they were told "OH! And by the way, the mission is 37 light years away!"

That's what it sounds like to me.

Now, considering that the modern-day astronaut goes through 3 years of training before he even finds out if he will become an astronaut and then begin his FORMAL astronaut training, it is conceivable that in 1956 a group of people were selected for a "10 year mission" (nonspecific), and the "wash out" began.

Just something to consider.