Project Serpo: Postings by "Anonymous" -- Breaking news?

It might be useful to discuss what type of photo we would consider to be 'proof'. Otherwise, I feel that we will have a situation where even great photos (or, conversely, obvious fakes) can be dismissed or supported on an arbitrary basis.

Lets back up a sec. Before we discuss proof, lets talk about evidence. Each picture will be have certain value for assessing the truth of the story. If the pictures do not appear hoaxed, but do not contain useful subject matter, then they are of little probative value in assessing the veracity of this story.

If they pictures show wonderous scenes of alien life, but bear even the slightest hint of having been created for purposes of deception, then they will suggest that the story is hoaxed.

I could go on with the possibilities, but my point is that we should plan on evaluating each photograph for it's appearance of authenticity and the probative value of what each picture asserts. We can then balance it all out and, most likely, come up with a hundred reasons why the story still hasn't been "proven". At best, we'll be unable to disprove the story, since I doubt the authenticity of the photos will be irrefutable, nor will the content.

Also, I don't think the pictures are intended to rise to the level of "proof", but I suspect that are attempting to give us enough reason to continue to believe, so that we'll be strung along as the story continues to unfold. We'll see though. I'm expecting a bunch of black and white photos that are just bad enough to be believable

I'm curious though -- where were the photos developed? What's the shelf life of the film after it's been exposed? Did they have a developing lab on Eben? There are a lot of logistical issues that will need to be explained as part of the test of the picture's authenticity.

Originally posted by Centrist


I'm curious though -- where were the photos developed? What's the shelf life of the film after it's been exposed? Did they have a developing lab on Eben? There are a lot of logistical issues that will need to be explained as part of the test of the picture's authenticity.

I've been wondering the same thing, too. It's possible that the team members brought a mobile photo lab around with them. Such things were, I believe, pretty common by the 1960s. My guess, though, is that these may be black and white photos (as the ones from the 60s could show more detail than color shots).

Also... we shouldn't be surprised if they used special, CIA-style cameras. Remember.... the odds are that they didn't use off the shelf, conventional kodak cameras on this mission. I wouldn't be surprised if the government had cameras with '80s technology by 1964.

come on. they had polaroid instant developing camera's. You really think they would take a mobile picture lab with them. The problem was that there was more radition on the planet, therefore the longevity of standard film could not be determined.

If it was my guess the "photos" will be polaroids with some damage due to radiation exposure thereby blocking out the most important part of the photo ie the aliens face their hands etc

Some excuse about time and hostile enviroment that the media was not desigined to handle etc

Same thing about the EBEN playing soccer, expect some highly overprocessed photos that you can tell some kids are playing but only vaguely.

It might be useful to discuss what type of photo we would consider to be 'proof'. Otherwise, I feel that we will have a situation where even great photos (or, conversely, obvious fakes) can be dismissed or supported on an arbitrary basis.

I think this is VERY important... along with a good library of photos from that same era. The one thing that strikes me is "how do you know when a picture is authentic but the interpretation ("General Schmidt forcing the Japanese to sign the NWO submission papers" put on a picture of the Japanese and Douglas MacArthur signing the peace treaty that ended WWII aboard the USS Missouri)

Originally posted by Centrist
I'm curious though -- where were the photos developed? What's the shelf life of the film after it's been exposed? Did they have a developing lab on Eben? There are a lot of logistical issues that will need to be explained as part of the test of the picture's authenticity.

Not only that, but exposure to radiation, etc, etc.

For the record, I think this is the most ridiculous hoax to come along in awhile. The science is unbelievably stupid.

Originally posted by robertfenix
come on. they had polaroid instant developing camera's. You really think they would take a mobile picture lab with them. The problem was that there was more radition on the planet, therefore the longevity of standard film could not be determined.

Well... having seen photographers develop their stuff with 'traditional' methods...

I have to believe that it doesn't take much to set up a traditional dark room. I mean... you don't need the giant machines like you see at walgreens to develop a picture. All you need is a darkroom, some chemicals, water, etc....

I'm a big Coast to Coast listener and admire the show because it discusses topics that mainstream media wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Although I don't always wind up believing every topic they discuss, I listen with an open mind and curiousity about things that sound interesting. The show about Serpo really caught my attention because....I'll admit....I *want* to believe something like this has happened..and continues to happen.

This is just one of those posts that compel you to respond and put in your 2 cents, but I'll try to be as brief as I can.

First, I find it amazing that a lot of the criticism about this subject is stemming from people not reading carefully enough of the material that's been put forth on serpo.org. And if they do read it carefully, people are intertwining other stories/incidents that are being brought up by other people and getting some of the facts mixed up. I must commend Valhall on catching a lot of these and responding with such clarity on the errors. Kudos to you.

Like I said, I listen to things with an open mind, but I have to say that a couple of you skeptics out there have really made some ignorant posts. You state your opinions as facts yet, I can shoot down your arguments with one question. "Were you there?" For example, there are so many variations of stories about the Roswell crash(es) that no one, unless you actually participated in (both/all?) these events, knows for sure what happened, and you are only repeating someone else's views/opinions/stories/tales. I'm not posting this to slam anyone, trust me. I just think that someone needed to call them on this, maybe even get them to rethink their "opinions" before they post.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL for hearing all sides of the story, but don't post them as fact unless you are a first-hand witness to the events. The first time I see a statement such as "Because UFO's aren't real and there are no aliens," I skip it. It's not productive, argumentative or even rational to make such claims.

You say "If UFO's are real, then prove it!
I say....If they're not real, then prove *that*!"

Absence of proof is not absence of truth.

I think one of my favorite scenes ever in a movie was when the UFO's started showing up in "Independence Day" right when the people in the diner were still making fun of Randy Quaid's character for claiming to be an abductee. Talk about payback! Just because you don't believe in something, or that something sounds so extraordinary to you, doesn't mean that it can't be real or ever happen. I think Orville Wright was quoted as saying, one year before they made their first flight, that "Humans won't fly for another 50 years." Try to imagine describing a laptop, or palm pilot, to someone in the 1800's....then think about how fascinating time travel or interplanetary travel is to the layman in this time. If there's one thing I've learned, it's never say never....it really is the result of ignorance. And with quantom physics and string theory coming into play......whoa....how many rigid minds has
*this* changed already?

(breathe in.....breathe out....)

Just....keep an open mind, k?...and know that I'm out here waiting patiently to see if this is all real or not as well.

Hydden, nice post. I second the mantra "Read the Serpo info carefully." Reading comprehension goes hand in hand with critical analysis.

Centrist, you've got my Way Above votes. Your passion and research efforts are tops.

Regarding the photos, I'm hoping for clear, full-color shots. No reason to expect that the team wouldn't have the top tech of the day to take with them. Though I'm curious how the film would survive the planet's conditions and the time. For all we know, the Ebens had their own cameras and the team used them instead. Problem solved. I'm also hoping for some beautiful orbital images of Serpo, its moons and the other planets in the system.

Originally posted by robertfenix
come on. they had polaroid instant developing camera's. You really think they would take a mobile picture lab with them. The problem was that there was more radition on the planet, therefore the longevity of standard film could not be determined.

Your right, instant polaroids were available in 1963. I don't know if they would have used them, or relied on them alone. If you’ve ever seen an old instant polaroid, they faded or discolored faster than normal film. I don't know that radiation would be a problem though, because they would probably be kept in a book or photo album. This would be enough to protect from solar radiation.

Anyway, I thought it might be interesting to get an idea of what pictures from the 60's might look like, and have something to compare them to. Here are some UFO pictures from the 60’s that can give us an idea of what to expect. Some of these photos show obvious signs of aging.

ufoevidence.org...

I would expect to see a color picture like this with obvious signs of aging.

ufoevidence.org...

At least it is something to look at while we’re waiting.

Like alot of others, I really want to believe this story. However, I have a feeling that one of three things will happen.

1. The site will mysteriously disappear before the pictures get up.
2. Anon will mysteriously disappear.
3. The pictures will come up and will be completely fake/The site will be a big joke or hoax.

It all seems too good to be true. I think if this information was accurate, the site would not have lasted this long.

Oh well, I really hope this is true and I can't wait to see the photo's.

[edit on 12/9/2005 by xxblackoctoberxx]

re: photographs

I've seen military b&w pictures taken in the mid 40's. They were shot using a military issued hand held twin lens reflex camera. I saw the prints in the early eighties. They were taken by a marine photographer. It was his job for the U.S. navy. He kept some souvenir prints. There was no enlargement of the negatives, they were direct prints about 2.75" square. To this day I have never seen such clarity, depth of field, contrast, or overall detail in any other photos I've ever seen. The closest "close but no cigar" photos that I can direct you towards would be those that were printed in wartime LIFE magazine, and these pale by comparison.

Any photos posted that are not truly breath-taking, are bogus.

Just thought I'd mention that Skeptic Overlord is still working on having a representative from Serpo.org join us for an interview. You can hear about it in his podcast, ATS.S: Skeptic Overview 16.1: A Holiday Tree?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So start working on those questions, about the "Anonymous" poster.

Well I dont know if these points were raised before or in the same manner but here it goes:

1. If those guys were telling the truth, there is a chance they could have been taken out. Why keep someone like that around which would be a liability.

2. Disinformation thrives everywhere.

3. In addition, if its fake, people have too much time on their hands; but then again I have seen alot of fake crap that has loads of info. in it. www.fourwinds10.com is one site with phenix journals. A lot of writing.

4. Why stay anonymous? These guys should have came forward and tried to get as much attention as possible so if the govt. wanted to kill them then it would be aware of the consequences. If you stay anonymous, you'll get taken out becuase no one knows you and they WILL find you, which is why I suspect it could be disinformation.

[edit on 10-12-2005 by kyateLaBoca]

Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
Like alot of others, I really want to believe this story. However, I have a feeling that one of three things will happen.

1. The site will mysteriously disappear before the pictures get up.
2. Anon will mysteriously disappear.
3. The pictures will come up and will be completely fake/The site will be a big joke or hoax.

It all seems too good to be true. I think if this information was accurate, the site would not have lasted this long.

Oh well, I really hope this is true and I can't wait to see the photo's.

[edit on 12/9/2005 by xxblackoctoberxx]

I'm with you on hoping this is true but...

1. I don't think this could happen now, especially since it was the main topic on a C2C show. The owner of the site, who is only posting what is being sent to him, sounds credible and is determined to stick with it as long as he can.

2. This is possible...especially since Anon kept mentioning how he wanted to get "sanctioned" to release the remainder of the information - a clear exit if needed.

3. I can sense there will be a great debate over the pictures already. If they're too clear, too blurry, too much detail, not enough detail. Comments of "I can do that in Photoshop!" accompanied by a few examples will surely pop up.

So...don't be too surprised if they're labeled as fake right from the start. If Anon thinks people will be "amazed" when they see them, they must be substantial enough for him wanting to post them in this day and age of Photoshop-touched fakes.

Hydden

Originally posted by Junkheap
I was going through the source code of the web pages to see if I could gleen anything further from that.

When looking at the source code for the contact page I see the mail goes through this web address:

www.safara.co.uk...

When looking at www.safara.co.uk... I see that site belongs to a web designer living in Wales that comes from South Africa.

Maybe this might help get to the bottom of the matter somehow.

Also, when checking WHOIS I see serpo.org was registered by "Property Partners" which appears to be a British Real Estate company.

The domain is administered by www.names.co.uk...

[edit on 4-12-2005 by Junkheap]

Indeed, this sparked my curiousity.

Yeah, the guy who runs the site that appeared on C2C had an English accent - so it wouldn't surprise me that he is in England.

And when a caller said he had information about another incident here in the US (a totally unrelated story), he offered to sit down and have some coffee to discuss it, and Bill (the website owner) said that might be impossible since they're in different parts of the world, but that he was still interested in the story and to send him information through the comments page.

So...all the UK identifiers make sense to me.

Originally posted by noise
I also think we should really try and get Anon and the author of the serpo site to give us some kind of exclusive. Wouldn’t this make a great editorial for ATS? The first step though is by appealing to our own board leaders. I’m not into the politics of the board but if someone, a mod maybe, can describe what the proper workflow for this kind of request is, I would appreciate it.

George Noory, from Coast to Coast, even asked Bill (serpo.org) that if he had any kind of contact with Anon, to mention that he would love to interview him anonymously on the show, but Bill said that was probably never going to happen because their goal isn't infamy....it's just to get the information out to the public. Bill said they probably would never reveal who they really were because, even though it may shed some light or credibility on this story, it wasn't their main purpose for leaking this out.

They did, however, listen to the show as is apparent from their last posting, but not even the slightest hint or mention of doing an interview was posted.

Maybe it's just me, but I understand why they're staying anonymous. Yes, I see both sides of the story and "hiding in plain sight" may be good for someone with nothing to lose, but if these 5-6 in the group that are deciding to put this story out still have ties with people who are still in the DIA (as they claim), they could ruin alot of reputations, careers, etc just by mentioning even their *first* name. Someone knows Person A has ties with Person B....someone else knows Person B is friends with Person C....the whole thing could be halted before it's even started. And personally, I'd like to hear more about it - true, or not.

As for photos and processing... my dad was a photography enthusiast when I was a kid. Back in the early nineties he gave me several large boxes of 'junk' from our basement. In them was one of those antique portrait cameras (you know, the kind you put the cloth over your head). Also in the box were several boxes of B/W film (negative and print paper) with expiration dates in the early fifties. Just for fun my friend and I set the camera up to attempt to take some pics. We got the necessary chemicals from a local photo supply store. Despite not having a clue what we were doing the pictures came out perfectly. The detail in the film was amazing. And this was film stored in an old bureau for decades. I'm sure the people on the Serpo mission had metal cases to store film and equipment in. After all, they were aware of the radiation issue.

Also, assuming for argument sake that this isn't all a hoax, I'm sure that the release of this information was argued, discussed and planned for a very long time. The people behind its release (and I don't mean Anon et al but rather the people 'above' them in the DIA etc.) most likely enlisted people within their 'community' to support the release of the information. No doubt there has always been people involved with this that felt disclosure was important and proper. That debate undoubtedly raged from the beginning. Now, some 50yrs later it just may be that a 'critical mass' of insiders has been reached that support disclosure. Most of the oirginal 'keepers' have retired and died.

I would find it unlikely that the goverment would handle disclosure. I would doubt that it would be some carefully produced event. I've always felt that when it happened it would be from a 'whistle blower' kind of event --- one where the weight of people wanting disclsoure slowly surpassed that of those desiring secrecy and the wall comes down. If it ever was to happen, why not now? Why not in this manner?

Originally posted by jtma508
Now, some 50yrs later it just may be that a 'critical mass' of insiders has been reached that support disclosure. Most of the oirginal 'keepers' have retired and died.

This was actually brought up on the C2C show. They mentioned Colonel Corso who wrote "The Day After Roswell" and how he talked about the process of filtering alien technology found at Roswell into mainstream businesses and giving us things like Kevlar, laser pointers, etc....and then he died shortly after that.

Also, the Defense Minister in Canada who just recently publicly stated that UFO's are "as real as the airplanes that fly over our head" is in his 80's.

I think you're right. I think alot of people who were involved in these projects from the 50's and 60's are going to start coming out of the woodwork. Let's just hope that after all these years there's still enough evidence and backing out there to prove their stories

When I was young... maybe 7 or so... my family had a rare visit with a relative that was a USAF test pilot. This was about 1958. At my age I had little interest in the visit. My parents, grand parents and older brother (he was about 14-15 at the time) were present. My brother was a big sci-fi fan and read constantly (he's an extrememly bright guy). I don't recall what everyone was talking about but I distinctly remember my brother asking my uncle if he knew anything about UFO's. I remember this because of the reaction of my uncle. He became deathly serious (a major departure from the light and jovial mood that had prevailed up until then). Everyone was silent for a time and I remember there was a feeling of discomfort in the room. Then my uncle said that he truly wished (I remember how emphatically he stressed that) that he could tell us what he knew and what he has seen. My brother asked some other related question and he responded with a 'I wish I could' answer and abruptly changed the subject. The entire mood in the room changed. I could tell that whatever he knew was huge. Of that I'm certain. What was it? I haven't a clue. But remember this was the late 50's. Something was definitely 'up'.

That would drive me nuts, jtma508. hehe
My roommate was a refueler in Desert Storm and operated the boom on his belly in the back of the plane. While talking to him about some of his "adventures" over there, even *he* came to a point where he couldn't discuss a certain topic....I forget what it was.

I've heard mention that alot of these secrecy contracts only last for 25 years, including this Serpo, which is why it's coming out now. But, I wonder if alot of the people who are still keeping secrets are doing it out of habit, don't know the deadline, or are just worried that "someone" might be listening and don't want to take any chances of repercussions...deadline or not.

My opinion as a curious paranormal seeker-of-information?
I think they should all just come forth at once.

The main problem this has always been is, imagine the backlash if the government admitted they've known about UFO's and have been keeping it from us - how will we trust them about anything again? On the other hand, what about the backlash if they continue to deny it, and it finally comes to light that they've known about it the whole time? Again, no more trust. The only thing they can really do is just ride this out at this point.