Personally have always been a .45 person, never liked 9mm. This week I'm getting a new .45 Glock 30. I hope the Glock as before is on the list of service pistols.

Thankfully the MOD Police are getting rid of their 9mm Brownings....some of them are older than the people using them...and thats saying something At least the MP7 is a tad newer even though its taking an age to get deployed at station level.

[edit on 26-6-2006 by bmdefiant]

Finally! Thank god the military dumped the puny 9mm which can't even get through standard body armor and doesn't do enough damage. Nice to know we are now using heavy hitters.

Originally posted by bmdefiant
Thankfully the MOD Police are getting rid of their 9mm Brownings....some of them are older than the people using them...and thats saying something At least the MP7 is a tad newer even though its taking an age to get deployed at station level.

Let's see an M9 handle that kind of lifespan...

My cousin that was in Iraq told me that he had to empty an entire clip from a 9MM into a man before it killed him. But then again he may have been a little mad at him because he had been hit by an IED and the guy was coming to finish him off. My cousin was lucky that there were not more coming to finish the job. There were only two that came and the 50 cal. took care of the other one.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV


Politics.

In the '50s the US forced NATO to adopt .30 cal federal as its standard calibre (re-named 7.62NATO). That meant that the Commonwealth had to completely re-arm from .303, the French had to ditch their traditional calibre, the (West) Germans had to shift from 7.92 Mauser when they were given an army...

The US were the only NATO force carrying a .45ACP pistol. Everybody else used 9mm.

Given that the US forced the change to 7.62 and then circumvented it by shifting to 5.56, if they were demanding sigularity of calibre, they had to play along and it was easier and cheaper for them to shift than everybody else. Politics were also pretty much at the root of the decision to choose the Beretta as the new 9mm pistol.

Now, the Brits were developing the EM2 assault rifle (the original bullpup system) in a strange calibre and the Yanks pretty much forced them to drop it, you can imagine how happy the Brits were when after re-equipping with SLRs at the expense of their superb prototype the Yanks jumped ship in favour of the Armalite/M16. There was no way the Brits were about to ditch the Sterling, Hi Power and MP5 in order to go to .45ACP.

A great summary of the machinations of NATO standardisation and it raises an interesting question - if the US drops the 9mm are they going to tell the rest of NATO to change as well?

Oh and Sterlings do go off if dropped, thats why UK training was restricted to single shot on all but one range.

Originally posted by Strangerous
A great summary of the machinations of NATO standardisation and it raises an interesting question - if the US drops the 9mm are they going to tell the rest of NATO to change as well?

I don't think that ammunition commonality is regarded as important today as it was in the past. There are more efficient supply chains that allow armies to resup their own without having to fall back to other forces supplies.

As for "telling" the rest of NATO to change their calibres, I don't think that this is an option. If other armies change, it will be because they want to be in line with the US, be that for what ever reason. Also the US of late tend to like the idea of having the biggest and best in equipment, and it doesn't like other armies to be as well armed.

The 9mm has been used for a hell of a long time, and (despite what some may say) it has a proven track record. Swapping calibres just because Big Brother decides to should not happen.

Though, with the UK wanting to be the 51st state, we probably will change just to make Uncle George feel big about himself.

I wondered that Paddy thanks.

From what I understand standardisation was a bit of a pipe dream anyway - something about even the hoses and valves all being different.

As someone else says you've obviously been there so I'd bow to your knowledge on the effectiveness of the 9mm vs. the .45.

As for the 51st state - I thought we were already!

Cheers

It is a good idea & I support it. I have seen too many clips on the net of cops getting sprayed at by perps in BPV's & high calibre rifles.

Then they gotta wait for SWAT or units with rifles instead of 9mms & shotguns to arrive.

That latest terror plot uncovered involving blowing up Sears Towers for example...They guy organising it wanted boots, armour, rifles & radios. A cop with a Glock17 is gonna have a hard time downing the guy.

I'd rather have a Glock19 or 26 myself.

Originally posted by Zenem
It is a good idea & I support it. I have seen too many clips on the net of cops getting sprayed at by perps in BPV's & high calibre rifles.

Then they gotta wait for SWAT or units with rifles instead of 9mms & shotguns to arrive.

That latest terror plot uncovered involving blowing up Sears Towers for example...They guy organising it wanted boots, armour, rifles & radios. A cop with a Glock17 is gonna have a hard time downing the guy.

I'd rather have a Glock19 or 26 myself.

As would a cop armed with a Glock 21 or any other pistol, regardless of calibre.

I'm a big advocate of the routine arming of police with weapons of rifle calibres. Indeed, in N. Ireland until recently it was quite normal to see a police foot patrol toting an HK33 or two. Then again, it was also normal to see a police patrol sporting an 8 man infantry section armed with SA80s, LSWs and GPMGs as well!

[edit on 27-6-2006 by PaddyInf]

Originally posted by Zenem
It is a good idea & I support it. I have seen too many clips on the net of cops getting sprayed at by perps in BPV's & high calibre rifles.

Then they gotta wait for SWAT or units with rifles instead of 9mms & shotguns to arrive.

There's a reason we have SWAT, SOG, Star Force, SO19 et al. It's called training.

Contables and Patrolmen don't have the training to take on these situations. They don't shoot regularaly enough to shoot straight enough, they don't practice tactics, they don't know the rules of engagement. They do know how to arrest,
"mirandise" in the US, collect evidence, keep the peace, take statements, give evidence, resolve conflict and respond to domestic disputes. In none of these situations do they need PDW 90s or FiveSevens.

Luckily we get regular shoot requalifications as well as tactical training dependent on whether its the Browning,MP5,MP7,SA80 that we're trained on as well as dry run training to keep the skills fresh.