Above Top Secret War Game Scenario

The Pacific may not be US territory, but US islands located within the Pacific are. Therefore, any threat targeting them will not be tolerated.
The US CVN’s are NOT carrying nuclear weapons, neither are US DDG’s, or CG’s .
The two SSBN’s are only on high alert, no order to launch, or to prepare to launch SLBM’s has been given. The United States still remains committed to it’s policy of no first strike concerning nuclear weapons.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Pacific may not be US territory, but US islands located within the Pacific are. Therefore, any threat targeting them will not be tolerated.
The US CVN’s are NOT carrying nuclear weapons, neither are US DDG’s, or CG’s .
The two SSBN’s are only on high alert, no order to launch, or to prepare to launch SLBM’s has been given. The United States still remains committed to it’s policy of no first strike concerning nuclear weapons.

This statement is typical of American arrogance. Our defensive test never threatened any American territory and was hundred of miles from Hawaii. You do not own the Pacific, even though you have abused it with your many atmospheric detonations. The PRC warns America that it will not be bullied by the only nation which has seen fit to use nuclear weapons on a civilian population.
The PRC calls on the UN Security council and all peace loving peoples of the world, to demand that the US stop it war mongering moves against the peace loving people of China.
Once again we reiterate our statement of no first use of nuclear weapons. America's actions do not follow her words, we call on the United States to stand down her ballistic missile submarines as our nuclear forces are.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Stop sweating me

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Is this thread alive? It looks great, saw some awesome data early on.

But it looks like AMM is trying to stir up some trouble once again... is there anybody that's still trying to "fight" this "war?" I wanna see some fighting.

How am I trying to "stir up trouble"? I am trying to keep this realistic, since I - UNLIKE YOU - am a participating member in this war game.

In other words, get lost if you can't keep from singling me out in a negative way, as is par for you.

EDIT: fix quotes/underlines/bold

[edit on 8-12-2005 by American Mad Man]

My intention isn't to participate, rather to observe (I'm more of an observant type, bash me for that if you will), so I'm not sure what you got in that comment.

As for me "singling you out," you single yourself out far better than I do. So keep using those smilies.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Hey sweatmonicaIdo and AMM, can you please continue your conversion/argument via U2U? Thank you


[edit on 8-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

[ THought I might get into a bit of fighting ]

• CNN - It has been reported that up to 4 American and Japanese E-3 AWACS planes were shot down by as yet an unidentified enemy.
  Two planes are reported to have been lost over the East China Sea a second over the Yellow sea 400 km off the Chinese coast and a fourth over the Sea of Japan 200km off the South Korean Coast. Several of the downed AWACS had fighter escorts which all returned safely.
  
  FIle Picture of one of the downed Japanese AWACS planes
  

The PRC calls this press conference to confirm that these planes were in fact shot down by a Special NAval Brigade using the new FT-2000 Surface to Air Anti Radiation missile. The missiles were fired from specially converted fishing boats. The mission was carried out with no losses and our boats have returned safely.
This action was to defend our soveriegn territory from the increasing agressive reconnaissance acts of America and her puppets. This was an act purely targetting aircraft which were spying on our territory. We further state that we adhere to our no first use policy of nuclear weapons and targetting of civilians in any way.



[edit on 8-12-2005 by rogue1]

Ok, PAUSE THE GAME

I do not want to proceeded with attacking China because I am unsure of how and who would decide the battle, even the war.

I also question this move, we agreed that the judge(s) would be presented information by member(s) who wished to carry out an attack, they would present info on their forces, tactics and their systems capabilities. The judge(s) would then research the capabilities of the nation that was about to be attacked and only then would they decide the result of the engagement. I presume this was not done, therefore the claim that US planes have been downed is purely self affirming.




[edit on 8-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

The Game is PAUSED
The Game is PAUSED
The Game is PAUSED
The Game is PAUSED
The Game is PAUSED
The Game is PAUSED

How many times have I got to say this? ALL actions from when I said the game was pause a few pages back are to be DISREGARDED. If you don't wish to heed the judges, then this is going to be a right mess.

ON TECHNOLOGY JUMPS
Any country can give any other country any technology they want to. The only problem is, in the context of the game, any donated technology would take time to develop, manufacture and implement into a defense strategy, never mind the training, etc. that would take to get that technology into practice for that country.

While it is perfectly acceptable to stick a few missiles in the back of a truck and give them to the other country, transport and time have to be considered.

This game is still only a couple of (game time) days into the conflict. Some of the things being proposed, while possible, are unrealistic in the time frame being talked about.

So, no laser anti-artillery weapons, no ICBM technology for countries who don't already have it, no "modified" fishing vessels firing on aircraft you don't even know where they are patrolling, let alone tell the judges where your "modified" assets are in the first place.

You can step up production of weapons, try and crash the other country's economy, etc, just remember that in the context of this game, the shooting will start before any realistic effect will be felt by the other country.

ON SNIPING (NON-MILITARY)
We welcome comments, ideas and suggestions from all ATS members.

Having said that, NO attacking or harrasing the players. Keep your petty differences to another thread. Any further harrassment will be reported to the Mods. Players are instructed to ignore personal attacks and let the Judges deal with it. U2U us if you have any problems about this.

GET READY
The shooting is going to start this weekend, you had better be ready. Sorry for the time delay, but there is a lot of info and preperation involved and we would prefer to start it correctly than have it descend into chaos.

Your understanding and patience are appreciated as always.

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
So, no laser anti-artillery weapons, no ICBM technology for countries who don't already have it....

You can step up production of weapons, try and crash the other country's economy, etc, just remember that in the context of this game, the shooting will start before any realistic effect will be felt by the other country.

I have to ask, why is it so unrealistic for the US to give SK technology proven in trials that would protect it's capitol from NK artillery bombardment?

That is the knife on the throat of SK, and I think it would be very realistic for SK to persue and be given such technology.

On the nuclear front, again, why is a nuclear SK unrealistic? If tensions actually were to come to this point, I think it is very likely that the US would put nukes in SK.

For one, it would deter NK from invasion.

For another, it would act just as Turky/Cuba did during the cold war.

In any case, if those are the rules, then so be it, I would just like to know if it is because it would complicate the play of the game, if you personally view it as unrealistic, or what?


[edit on 8-12-2005 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I have to ask, why is it so unrealistic for the US to give SK technology proven in trials that would protect it's capitol from NK artillery bombardment?

1. Is the hardware available? i.e. Is it sitting on tarmac somewhere ready to be shipped to S. Korea?
2. Do the Koreans know how to use this hardware? Have they be trained? Do they have time to build, deploy and practice using this technology?

Link me to those trials and show me this is real and available hardware and we will consider if it can be deployed before the fighting starts.

On the nuclear front, again, why is a nuclear SK unrealistic? If tensions actually were to come to this point, I think it is very likely that the US would put nukes in SK.

Again, "put" nukes in SK is not unrealistic, just tell us how you would do it. Do you have the time? Do you have the hardware? Would it truly be a deterrant even if you had the time? Would the S.Koreans civvies throw a hissy fit over having Nukes? All things to consider. Prove to us you can realistically arm S.Korea with nuclear weapons in the space of 1 to 2 days and if the rest of the world doesn't object, then, maybe......

In any case, if those are the rules, then so be it, I would just like to know if it is because it would complicate the play of the game, if you personally view it as unrealistic, or what?

Nothing personal. I judge it to be unrealistic, but if you can sway me otherwise? Who knows?

I am trying to keep it grounded in the real world and not like some sort of computer game, where people can shout "Upgrade!" and then magically every asset in the battlefield is upgraded. Same applies to basic equipment and assets available to countries.

Sure you can give any country whatever you want, just be realistic about it, considering the time frame. Just by saying "We give country X this technology" does not mean that the country can suddenly deploy and use that technology. Saying "technology" is just too disambiguous.

Also, don't ever be afraid to question my decisions!!! I appreciate the feedback!

Japan just began a nuclear attack

Bombing China. Cities hit Beijing, Chengdu, Dalian, Guangzhou, Hangzhou, Harbin, Hohhot, Hong Kong, Kunming, Qingdao, Shanghai, Shenyang, Tianjin, Urumqi, Xiamen and Xi'an. 2 atomic bombs for each city making a pile of dust.

Ports and harbors that where also obliviated: Dalian, Guangzhou, Nanjing, Ningbo, Qingdao, Qinhuangdao, Shanghai


All North Korean cities also hit by atomic bombs: Chŏngjin, Hamhŭng, Nampo, Pyŏngyang, Sinŭiju.

Port Harbors were obliviated
Ch'ongjin, Haeju, Hungnam (Hamhung), Kimch'aek, Kosong, Najin, Namp'o, Sinuiju, Songnim, Sonbong (formerly Unggi), Ungsang, Wonsan

Japan statement. We were tired of the ongoing threat China and North Koreans had so we took necessary measures to ensure the Japanese future.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by elab]

I know we are on pause...just testing the waters...hehe

For my information, what year does this war take place?

And are we assuming that China has things like mid-air refueling capability?

EDITED for content.
And can you remove those smileys? They distract me, and they stretch the page.

Thank you for editing the smileys.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
1. Is the hardware available? i.e. Is it sitting on tarmac somewhere ready to be shipped to S. Korea?
2. Do the Koreans know how to use this hardware? Have they be trained? Do they have time to build, deploy and practice using this technology?

Link me to those trials and show me this is real and available hardware and we will consider if it can be deployed before the fighting starts.

US Army's Mobile Tactica High Energy Laser (MTHEL) shoots down multiple mortars and Artillery shells (2004)

MTHEL shoots down artillery shell (2002)

I'd like to point out that I wasn't just saying "poof! I know can't be hit by artillery". I requested acceptence into the program, so that I might be able to get it up and running ASAP. I was going to try to play this more from a geo-political angle then a military one (my personal style, plus I and my partner sharing SK responsibility have limited amounts of time to dedicate to the game, and thus I thought this way it would be more manageable for us). However, it does seem like the general theme is to go for more of a pure military angle.

As for training, there are enough US bases and service men in SK that I think it reasonable to assume that if they agreed to give the system, they would probably provide training.

Granted, this is not a weapon system available in volume, but it is a proven system. I think it would be fair to say that though the technology exists, it would take time to manufacture.

There for in game play, perhaps make it available in 2-4 months, to allow for manufacture of the system?

Again, "put" nukes in SK is not unrealistic, just tell us how you would do it. Do you have the time? Do you have the hardware?

Well, there are US carriers with nuclear weapons right off my coast. They could give them to me.

C-5 transports have been loaded with missles and the systems according to the US. Assume it takes about 24 hours to get to SK. Another week to set them up. That seems like time enough to me. I think my forces can hold the DMZ for a week while the missles are set up, worst comes to worst.

Would it truly be a deterrant even if you had the time?

Would you try and invade a nation with nuclear missles? Would you back a NK invasion if you knew SK could respond with MIRVs?

Would the S.Koreans civvies throw a hissy fit over having Nukes?

They may or may not, but it doesn't really matter if their leadership wants them.

Prove to us you can realistically arm S.Korea with nuclear weapons in the space of 1 to 2 days

Cargo aircraft can make it to SK in 1 day. Once they are there, then it is simply a race to get them up and running before SK is over run.

In addition, several US naval assets have nuclear weapons as part of their arsenal. Warheads could be flown to SK mainland in a matter of hours if needed.

and if the rest of the world doesn't object, then, maybe......

Since when has a world wide objection stopped the US from arming an ally if it wanted to?

Nothing personal. I judge it to be unrealistic, but if you can sway me otherwise? Who knows?

Oh, definatly nothing personal.

It's called a game for a reason.

And I do understand the need to be realistic, while also trying to keep the scoap of the game manageable.

Hence, you the judge, to keep us grounded in reality. I just don't see it as a stretch that the US would arm SK with nukes in such a situation. IMHO, it should be a more a matter of the time frame for actions such as setting up ICBMs in SK then it should allowing or not allowing it.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
For my information, what year does this war take place?

And are we assuming that China has things like mid-air refueling capability?

Whatever they have available to them today. 2005.

Current technology and assets.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Granted, this is not a weapon system available in volume, but it is a proven system. I think it would be fair to say that though the technology exists, it would take time to manufacture.

There for in game play, perhaps make it available in 2-4 months, to allow for manufacture of the system?

From your source:

The Pentagon has been working on a variety of other laser weapon technologies that could be used to shoot down ballistic missiles in flight, although deployment of such weapons is at least a decade away.

If the US want to loan you the one and only prototype you can have it. If you buy into developing the technology and manufacturing it yourself, you can have it the 4 months you stated. Which roughly equates to about 10 years of gameplay!!!!

C-5 transports have been loaded with missles and the systems according to the US. Assume it takes about 24 hours to get to SK. Another week to set them up. That seems like time enough to me. I think my forces can hold the DMZ for a week while the missles are set up, worst comes to worst.

Okay, if the US agrees to give them to you and you are not over-run by D+4 you can have them.

Mind you, requesting these weapons may be viewed as tantamount to declaring war. You wouldn't be asking for them unless you intended to use them. The N.Koreans may act accordingly once you make that request.

Would you try and invade a nation with nuclear missles? Would you back a NK invasion if you knew SK could respond with MIRVs?

There is already tonnes of enemy nuclear and conventional araments sitting off their coast. If that doesn't scare them into not invading, you having a few more nukes isn't either.

Since when has a world wide objection stopped the US from arming an ally if it wanted to?

If this develops and spreads, you will need all the friends you can get. As the Judges represent the rest of the world, I can guarantee you there will be objections. If you are playing the geo-political angle, you may have to consider that.

Hence, you the judge, to keep us grounded in reality. I just don't see it as a stretch that the US would arm SK with nukes in such a situation. IMHO, it should be a more a matter of the time frame for actions such as setting up ICBMs in SK then it should allowing or not allowing it.

If the US agrees to give them to you, you can have them in the time frame stated.

Originally posted by elab
I know we are on pause...just testing the waters...hehe

Lucky we were on pause there..!!! The game would have been over very quickly after all that hard work!

Your tactics are like a Japanese commander's wet dream come true!!

Pity Japan doesn't have nukes, but with you in charge it is probably a good thing! You would have turned half of Asia into a radioactive sheet of glass......

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Whatever they have available to them today. 2005.

Current technology and assets.

So no air-refueling? Okay.

What chance is there India will get involved in the war?

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
From your source:

That is in reference to anti ballistic missle laser weapons.

The MTHAL is available now, today.

Mortar and rocket attacks are the fourth-leading cause of casualties amongst U.S. forces, behind Improvised Explosive Devices (IED's), suicide bombs and firefights.

To that end, Northrop officials have crafted a plan to pack up the laser and get it to where it's needed most -- Iraq.

"We can have it up and running in a few months -- we've mapped out the logistics and the manpower and it's doable," says Stephenson.

The most logical place for the deployment in Iraq would be the Green Zone headquarters of the U.S. military and the new Iraqi government, which gets peppered with mortar fire emanating from nearby civilian neighborhoods. The Department of Defense refuses to comment on potential weapons deployment, but Stephenson says that a decision on the plan is imminent.

Besides its bid to use the single prototype for force protection, another proposal from Northrop is a $25 million "redeployable" THEL that is one fourth the size of the prototype and can be moved from site to site with a crane and an eighteen-wheeler. Stephenson claims a prototype could be available before the end of 2006 and that Northrop already has the manufacturing capability to produce one every two months from that point on.

"This isn't a dream of the future," says Northrop's Stephenson. "This is a system which can be rushed into the field and start saving lives immediately." He expects to hear from the Pentagon on a decision to fund the weapon within two months.

Link

I don't see any reason the US couldn't rush the same thing over to me if they agreed to it. Also, while we are technically in conflict over Iraq, the effort given to the military pales in comparison to what would be allocated to the US in a stand off with China, Russia, and NK.

The dates and figures presented here IMHO would be VERY conservative, and in fact MUCH longer then would be needed in a full war mobalization against powers such as Russia and China. This was as of May, 2005, some 6 months ago.

BTW, I meant 4 months of game play time...

Okay, if the US agrees to give them to you and you are not over-run by D+4 you can have them.

Done and done.

Mind you, requesting these weapons may be viewed as tantamount to declaring war. You wouldn't be asking for them unless you intended to use them. The N.Koreans may act accordingly once you make that request.

Well, seeing as how NK already has them, I guess THEY intend to use them, presumably on me

Thus the world at large should focus on their proliferation, as if it were not for them, SK would not be backed in the corner it currently is.

I'll take my chances that I am going to be going to war anyway, and so perhaps I will be able to end it once they are up and running.

There is already tonnes of enemy nuclear and conventional araments sitting off their coast. If that doesn't scare them into not invading, you having a few more nukes isn't either.

History does not support you.

The US didn't nuke North Vietnam when they invaded the south. Hell, they didn't nuke North Korea or China in the Korean war did they - and that is when both did not have nukes. Isreal was attacked several times, was it not?

On the ther hand, when was the last time a nation with it's own nuclear weapons was invaded?

Having your own deterent is worth far more then relying on others.

If this develops and spreads, you will need all the friends you can get. As the Judges represent the rest of the world, I can guarantee you there will be objections. If you are playing the geo-political angle, you may have to consider that.

But that is part of my point... It doesn't seem like there is a geo-political angle to be played, as you - the judge - said the war will comence this weekend.

I was trying to play a minimal role, but the way it seems to be going, I am getting attacked, politics be damned.

I'd also say that the judges should NOT represent any nations, or the world at large. That kind of defeats the point of having a judge not involved in actual conflict, now doesn't it?

If this is the case, then the world should be tripping over themselves blockading Russia, kicking them off the UNSC etc for giving NK all of their nuclear technology and tering the NPT to shreds...

May I ask, where were the judges representing the world on that one?

EDIT: Fix quotes, bold lettering, etc..



[edit on 9-12-2005 by American Mad Man]

[edit on 9-12-2005 by American Mad Man]

This folks, is how it should be done!

Convince the Judges and we can grant you almost anything!!!

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The MTHAL is available now, today.

How long to ship it to theatre?

Well, seeing as how NK already has them, I guess THEY intend to use them, presumably on me

Having them from beforehand and requesting them during a time of elevated tensions are two totally different things. Rushing to arm yourselves in a tense situation like this can only lead to itchy fingers pulling triggers.

At this stage you are not sure if war can be averted or not? Yes, we all know military conflict is set to break out, but in a real situation you wouldn't know that.

Having your own deterent is worth far more then relying on others.

It certainly is, but when you are in bed with the US like Korea is, you sort of assume they, having troops and assets based there, will render any assistance, nuclear or otherwise, if needed.

I was trying to play a minimal role, but the way it seems to be going, I am getting attacked, politics be damned.

Yup. You said it.

I'd also say that the judges should NOT represent any nations, or the world at large. That kind of defeats the point of having a judge not involved in actual conflict, now doesn't it?

Just to clarify, Judges will NOT be invovled in any conflicts. They will represent the world on the geopolitical side whenever a little bit of flavour is to be introduced. In other words, not often and not with any real effect on the game.

If this is the case, then the world should be tripping over themselves blockading Russia, kicking them off the UNSC etc for giving NK all of their nuclear technology and tering the NPT to shreds...

Who exactly would be capable of doing that, bar the countries in the region who are now being represented by players? No need for the Judges to get involved.

May I ask, where were the judges representing the world on that one?

You may. We were working behind the scenes trying to set things up while you guys were having all the fun!!!!