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Above Top Secret War Game Scenario

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posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
I'll start posting mine tonight. I stay up all night long anyway so I'll have plenty of time later on. Do you want actual numbers, or are we limiting them in any way? What parameters are we putting in as far as weapons lists, etc?


Great question, go into as much detail as you feel like you should. The more the better. But remember post what country you represent.
Good luck




posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:49 PM
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I u2ued AMZ about the debate thread, i'll update you asap.

Update on RPG War thread

Allies

United States: Zaphod58, WestPoint23
United Kingdom: ludachris
Japan: None
South Korea: None

Communist Nations

China: None
North Korea: Josh Gator54

Judges: LiquidationOfDiscrepancy, Empty, Empty



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 10:47 PM
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REPRESENTATIVE FOR NORTH KOREA

Country : Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea (DPRK) or North Korea

Supreme Commander of the Korean People’s Army Jim Jong-il

“North Korea’s form of communism, with its dynamic leadership and emphasis on juche (most commonly translated as ‘self-reliance’), is unique. It first emerged as a reaction to the personality cult surrounding Stalin and to the Soviet-Chinese ideological split. It provided a rationale for Kim Il Sung’s authority and acted as the vehicle for developing the personality cult around him.” -The Prospects for North Korea’s Survival, by David Reese

Capital City: Pyongyang

Population (2004): 22.7 million

North Korea shares borders with China, Russia, and South Korea. The border with South Korea is the most heavily armed border in the world. It is known as the DMZ or demilitarized zone.

*Military size – Estimated 1.2 million plus 4.7 million in reserves, including the world’s second largest “special ops” tactical unit, designed specifically for insertion behind enemy lines during a time of war.

While debatable, it has been estimated that North Korea has approx. six nuclear warheads of the strength of those dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima during WWII. Delivery systems are less capable.

Military Capabilities: The following numbers are based on a survey completed for the year 1999.

-3,000 Tanks – T-34, T-55, T-62 (T-34 WWII vintage, T-55 introduced '57.
-82 Bombers – Il-28
-Pre-1956 Fighter Aircraft – 107 MiG-17, 159 MiG-19, 130 MiG-21
-1960’s Fighter Aircraft – 46 MiG-23, 130 F-4D/E
-1970’s Fighter Aircraft – 195 F-5
-1980’s Fighter Aircraft – 30 MiG-29, 18 Su-7, 35 Su-25, 60 F-16
-Light Tanks – 500
-Artillery – 10,600
-Rocket Launchers – 2,600
-Submarines – 26
-Frigates – 3
-Missile Craft – 43
-Torpedo Craft – 200
-Patrol Craft – 178

Political Tendencies and Philosophy: The following are quotes from, “Nuclear North Korea: A Debate On Engagement Strategies” pg 22-23.

“…constraints are effectively gone; as one Chinese official observed, ‘The North Koreans don’t listen to us…they don’t listen to anyone.’”

“…reputational concerns do not appear to factor into Pyongyang’s policy calculations.”

Defense spending increased from 3 billion in 1980 to over 15 billion in 1998.

* North Korea is extremely secretive and goes to great lengths to conceal some military information, while touting other information, which may or may not be true. In any military situation with North Korea an enemy must expect the unexpected.

Some information gained from US State Dept website.


[edit on 30-11-2005 by JoshGator54]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 11:28 PM
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I'm handling the Air/Naval forces for the US.

Most air assets would be deploying from the Continental United States, but we could have heavy bombers on scene flying from CONUS within hours. The B-52s would fly out of Barksdale Louisiana, and Minot North Dakota. The B-2s would fly out of Whiteman, Missouri, and the B-1s would launch from Dyess AFB, Texas, Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota, Mountain Home AFB Indiana, Robbins AFB, Georgia, and McConnell AFB Kansas.

Current numbers of Bombers:
B-52 94. 85 wth Active Duty forces, and 9 with USAF Reserve forces. All are B-52H models. Older airframes, but all have flown 35+ hour missions in support of forces in the Middle East.
Payload:
The B-52H, with a weapons payload of more than 70,000lb, is capable of carrying the most diverse range of weapons of any combat aircraft.

The nuclear weapons capacity includes twelve AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missiles (ACMS), 20 AGM-86A Air Launched Cruise Missiles (ALCM) and eight bombs. The conventional weapons payload is eight AGM-84 Harpoon missiles, four AGM-142 Raptor missiles, 51 x 500lb bombs, 30 x 1,000lb bombs, 20 AGM-86C Conventional Air Launched Cruise Missiles (CALCM), 12 Joint Stand Off Weapons (JSOW), 12 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) and 16 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD). WCMD was first deployed by the B-52 in 2002 in Afghanistan. JSOW entered service in 2003 and was deployed during Operation Iraqi Freedom. The B-52 will be the first aircraft to be equipped with the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM), which was cleared for operational use in October 2003.

During Operation Iraqi Freedom in April 2003, a B-52 was fitted with the Northrop Grumman Litening II laser targeting pod, which was used to strike targets in Northern Iraq.

The B-52H can also deliver 51 x 500lb, 30 x 1,000lb and 20 x 2,000lb navy mines.
www.airforce-technology.com...

B-2 21, all with Active Duty forces at Whiteman AFB Missouri.
Payload:
Up to 80,000 lb including 16 B61/B83 nuclear bombs, 80 Mk82 1,000 lb bombs or 16 Mk84 2,000 lb bombs, 36 M117 750 lb fire bombs, 36 cluster bombs, or 80 Mk36 1,000 lb sea mines
www.fighter-planes.com...
The B-2 has flown combat over Yugoslavia, Iraq, and Afghanistan with no aircraft damaged. The Spirit uses EM, acoustic, and infrared suppression systems to make it harder to detect during combat missions. It's not impossible to detect, just very difficult, making the odds of survival for secondary strikes much higher than in conventional bombers.
During the conflict in Afghanistan, B-2s launched from Whiteman, flew to their targets and dropped their payload, recovering in Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, to change crews, without even shutting down their engines, after which the new crew would fly back to Whiteman. Total mission time was between 30 and 50 hours.
B-1B 65 with Active Duty Forces
Payload:
24 GBU-31 GPS-aided JDAM (both Mk-84 general purpose bombs and BLU-109 penetrating bombs) or 24 Mk-84 2,000-pound general purpose bombs; 8 Mk-85 naval mines; 84 Mk-82 500-pound general purpose bombs; 84 Mk-62 500-pound naval mines; 30 CBU-87, -89, -97 cluster munitions; 30 CBU-103/104/105 WCMD, 24 AGM-158 JASSMs or 12 AGM-154 JSOW
www.af.mil...

The B-1B is a supersonic low altitude bomber originally developed in the 1970s. It currently holds 50 records for speed, payload, range, and time to climb in its class, and has seen service in Afghanistan, and Iraq It has a semi-low observable capability, but is not a true stealth aircraft.

Within 48-72 hours, the USAF is capable of having several hundred tactical bombers, and air superiority fighters on scene. Examples of this include the F-15 Eagle (A/C for air superiority, E for tactical bombing), F-16 Falcon, A-10 Warthog, and F-117 Nighthawk. The F-117 being the USAFs stealthy tactical bomber.

Numbers:
F-15A/C-342 (The F-15 in all models has a 95-0 kill ratio in combat with various operators)
F-15E-132
F-16-924
A-10-367
F-117-55

With tanker support the heavy bombers can launch with impunity from the US mainland and the tactical bombers can launch from further away from their targets, reducing the risk of attack to their airbases.

US Navy
The US Navy has five nuclear powered aircraft carriers in the Pacific, and one non-nuclear powered carrier based in Japan that would be used for a conflict in Asia.

CVNs-
USS Nimitz
USS Carl Vinson
USS Abraham Lincoln
USS John C Stennis
USS Ronald Regan.
Not all five are available at the same time, due to at least one being in refit/refueling at any given time.

With the carriers will be a battlegroup of escorts.
11 Aegis Cruisers with Vertical Launch Systems for their missiles.
2 Aegis Cruisers without VLS
9 Arleigh Burke class Aegis Destroyers (Flight IIA)
13 Arleigh Burke class Aegis Destroyer (Flight 1/II)
12 Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigates (including Naval Reserve Fleet)
9 Ohio class SSBN Ballistic Missile sumarines
2 Ohio class SSGN guided missile submarines
25 Los Angelas class Fast Attack sumarines
6 Carrier Air Wings available to deploy on aircraft carriers
A CAW consists of strike aircraft, fighter aircraft for escort/carrier defense, antisubmarine aircraft, helicopters, and delivery planes.


This is the most current OOB for the Pacific forces that I am able to find. (OOB Order Of Battle)
This is only direct combat OOB for the USAF. There are multiple cargo/tanker aircraft that would be involved with deploying forces to the Asian theater.
[edit on 11/30/2005 by Zaphod58]

[edit on 11/30/2005 by Zaphod58]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 11:58 PM
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Just some questions about this interesting project.

Are assymmetric tactics (i.e. economic offensive, internet attacks, terrorist cells sympathetic to your side, etc.) and civilian resistance (militia, occupied resistance, etc.) being brought into play?

Is warfare in the information age of the 21st century really limited to the battlefield?

I think the side who wins can be decided by the side they are against. Once either the Allies or the Asian Axis think they have been soundly driven to checkmate by the other side, they could admit defeat. Then a seperate debate could bring up the topics of resistance and occupation.

For this war to start, I think it would be handy for the Judges to state a date and time, a location where the inciting incident were to happen and give the sides a timeframe to repond.

Inciting incidents could be:

1. China invades Taiwan/A Taiwanese claim to independance leads to a military build up in the area.

2. N. Korea launches a WMD against Tokyo, Japan demands revenge.

3. A clash takes place over Japan and China in regards the gas fields.

4. The CCP initiate a war to fend off the peaceful evolution of the Chinese people by invading to the south. (As discussed in a recent ATS thread)

OR a slightly more interesting scenario

5. Civilian dis-satisfation in the run up to the 2008 US president elections erupts into pockets of outright civil unrest. China sees their advantage and makes their move on Taiwan, Japan makes a play for the Phillipines and secures the islands in contention with China, and finally only half of a known number of N. Korean ships have been intercepted dropping off nukes to Fanatic groups in the U.S. The other half got through.......



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 05:05 AM
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hi all - i have just signed up with the refferees , i will expoand on my position once my application has been apporoved



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 05:12 AM
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Welcome to the War Room. This should be pretty interesting.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 06:14 AM
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Update on RPG War thread

Allies

United States: Zaphod58, WestPoint23
United Kingdom: ludachris
Japan: None
South Korea: None

Communist Nations

China: ignorant_ape, watch_the_rocks
North Korea: Josh Gator54

Judges: LiquidationOfDiscrepancy, howmuchisthedoggy ?, Empty


Like I stated earlier, there should be two different types of debates going on.
One will be in this thread, and as soon as AMZ u2u's me another one should be in the debate forum.

I am finding out now if howmuchisthedoggy wants to be a judge for this debate, but as of now I need each country to keep posting information on their military. I'll have a talk with howmuchisthedoggy for structured rules, and let you guys know asap when a set up date to start this "war" will take place.

Remember, more than one person is allowed per country.

[edit on 063131p://444 by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy]



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 07:26 AM
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I am finding out now if howmuchisthedoggy wants to be a judge for this debate, but as of now I need each country to keep posting information on their military. I'll have a talk with howmuchisthedoggy for structured rules, and let you guys know asap when a set up date to start this "war" will take place.


I would be glad to help out as a judge as this an interesting project.

I think the structure could be:

1. Set a world map, get each country to place where all their assets are to as accurate a degree as they can.

2. Have each side make a set amount of moves a day.

3. The Judges must all concur that the move is legal, realistic and if not, they will suggest a more realistic outcome.

4. Each update would have positions placed on the world map and a sit-rep posted.


Those that are playing should see my previous post and decide which scenario is the most interesting, I prefer Case 5 myself as it levels the playing field and throws in a few interesting political dilemmas.

However, we are open to suggestion, so keep posting!



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Sounds very interesting

I would be glad to take China if its still open. I have to say I know alot more about the US military, but Im not afraid to do some extra research into China Tech, numbers and strategy

opps China is already taken missed that sorry. I guess I could still help out any side if they need some any imput

[edit on 1-12-2005 by ShadowXIX]

[edit on 1-12-2005 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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I am currently compiling a summary of China's forces. OMG, what work. This the first time ever that I have comprehensively looked into and researched China. Now I go to bed, wake up, then catalog the PLA's ground forces.

ignorant_ape, please contact me.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 09:46 AM
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why not let some of the chinese members on ATS take up china..
It'll be much more..ahem.. shall we say realistic then..



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
why not let some of the chinese members on ATS take up china..
It'll be much more..ahem.. shall we say realistic then..


If they'd volunteer I am sure they would be more than welcome!!!

Come on chinawhite! All the rest of you!!



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Hello Liquid and fellows.

This thread popped up fairly quickly without my knowledge, but its right up my alley so what the heck. Course, I'm no expert on any of these countries per say, (course neither is anyone else, but eh) so I am not sure which position to fill.

I have a good concept of US ground tactics, mostly armor tactics as well as numbers. I also know China uses an updated old soviet doctrine.

I guess I could be a US army player if it has not been taken, perhaps the cavalry division stationed in SK (in which case I'd have to hit the books)

I'd like to add that you can "RP" this with realistic numbers and movement times, and as long as people agree on quality of troops and movement times, and not pulling any "Macarthur"s, aka, wanting to nuke someone or something totally silly or insane.

If in fact we do this, or even reference, we need a "big board." I dont know of any "interactive" picture hosting sites where multiple people can edit pictures, but if worse comes to worse, we can simply use a detailed map of Korea, place troops and objects of interest, and when something occurs, change the position, and rehost. I'll figure something out later.

Anyways, sounds good, and if we all do this seriously, we can have our wargame.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Cool, I'll be the US.
*launches full scale nuclear strike on China and North Korea* *activates HAARP to 1.21 gigawatts and scrambles the brains of the Red Army troopers* *lights cigar, sits back in chair*



Ok ok, but seriously tho, the RPG bit is an intersting idea, we should try to work out something more formalized though no? Like, how many moves a person can make at once, etc.

If you want, we can make it so that only game posts will appear in a special thread, just like with the debates, and we can recruite more members with a wider range of contacts.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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hi all - its official now - i am a member of " team china " - now to write up our TO&E and agrre out strategy with our heroic korean ally



a couple of game play issues :


1 - do all U2Us have to be CCed to an umpire too ?


2 - secrecy in general - how do you intend to handle keeping opsing sides in the dark - untill


PS - when its " all over " it would be nice to be able to read the log of what the oopposing team did off stage



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:27 PM
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Would this be an acceptable "big board"?



Its also in PSD format so anyone can edit it with photoshop and not erase the background.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by Raideur
Would this be an acceptable "big board"?



Its also in PSD format so anyone can edit it with photoshop and not erase the background.


Looks like a game of RISK. Anybody brought the dice?



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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That map is wonderful. I will update the players list soon. REMEMBER more than one person can have the same country! (For all those that wanted China will be accepted if you u2u me for it) I would like a "special" thread as well if the mods would allow it. For ex. All of the moves would appear in another thread. Howmuchisthedoggy will be taking over for a bit, and look over this thread for me. I am sorry but I have a lot of school work, and I can't do this without some sort of help. Right now we are planning this thing out, so keep the ideas coming, and I'll update the countries soon. Plus keep posting information on your country.

I am also looking for a third judge



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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That map is wonderful. I will update the players list soon. REMEMBER more than one person can have the same country! (For all those that wanted China will be accepted if you u2u me for it) I would like a "special" thread as well if the mods would allow it. For ex. All of the moves would appear in another thread. Howmuchisthedoggy will be taking over for a bit, and look over this thread for me. I am sorry but I have a lot of school work, and I can't do this without some sort of help. Right now we are planning this thing out, so keep the ideas coming, and I'll update the countries soon. Plus keep posting information on your country.

I am also looking for a third judge





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