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How old is your grandmother?

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posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 05:26 PM
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Hello there. Just to clarify something. I'm not a mason but have had people in my family who were. Two 33rd's.

I have seen the papers and literature and it's interesting to say the least.

The papers for the 33rd have the double headed Pheonix.
At the bottom it has the signatures of even higher people. Sec. Gen of this and what have you. Beside these signatures is a pryamid with light all around and the 33rd in the middle.

I've heard the name Illuminati from time to time when studying history related things and want to ask what the all masons here know about this.

Before they passed on to the grand lodge above the people in my family also mentioned this inner society but didn't say very much about it.

Are these signatures with the special logo beside them this infamous Illuminati? I have an Encyclopedia Brittanica collection from 1966 and under I it even has a small foot note about the Illuminati and Adam Weischept (Sp?)

It mentions the creation of this society in Bavaria in May 1st 1776 and even shows a picture of the 1 USD with the pyramid. The encyclopedia also mentions that this society found it's way into the various lodges in North America and subsquently went underground. According to history this Weischept disappeared after a warrant for his arrest was released. It says nothing else about this group of people.

It goes even further. I've been told that 1/10 Masons even knows about this infamous Illuminati. History confirms their existence but nothing more. Can any of you craftsmen shed any light on this?

That last bit leads me to one more thing. I haven't much idea when it comes to things like Witchcraft and Occultism but I've also been told that Freemasonry is a form of Witchcraft. From what I understand Masons even call it the Craft.

I don't know about the shadiness of this Witchcraft but when I was told that I had a very erie feeling about everything.

Don't be turned off by the conspiracyarchive part of the URL. This one doesn't make stuff up. It only talks about historical subjects. Real people, real published books and other things related to Elite Freemasonry.

P.S. What is the difference between Freemasonry and Elite Freemasonry? I've discovered through history that most Presidents except for Kennedy are elite masons. Infact the majority of wealthy/important people in this world are Masons. Even Hitler and Himmler were members of the Bavarian Order of Death. Every SS soldier had to undertake Masonic iniation in order to be an SS guards.

There's all kinds of interesting tidbits of information that is out there which is all very interesting.


www.conspiracyarchive.com...


en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 30-11-2005 by Huabamambo]

[edit on 30-11-2005 by Huabamambo]




posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 03:54 AM
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It's doubtful that your folks were 33 degree Freemasons. It sounds to me like the piece of paper that you have is for the 18th degree.

Just to clarify: which country do you come from? "How old is your grandmother" is meant to be a British mode of recognition, although I've only ever heard it in an Irving Welsh novel.

Masonry is certainly not witchcraft. The reason it is called the "Craft" is because it takes it's name from the "craft" of stonemasonry.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 05:02 AM
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Originally posted by Huabamambo
P.S. What is the difference between Freemasonry and Elite Freemasonry? I've discovered through history that most Presidents except for Kennedy are elite masons. Infact the majority of wealthy/important people in this world are Masons. Even Hitler and Himmler were members of the Bavarian Order of Death. Every SS soldier had to undertake Masonic iniation in order to be an SS guards.


1). Only 14 presidents have been Masons... that is hardly "most" presidents. The last one was Gerald Ford. Just off the top of my head I can only think of these: Washington, both Roosevelts, Truman, and Ford.. I'm not sure who the other ones were, but I am sure you could find out.

2). The majority of wealthy people are not Masons, that's silly.

3). Hitler and the Nazis shut down all of the Masonic Lodges in Germany during their rise to power. There might have been some sort of quasi-Masonic rituals for SS officers, although I have never heard of that.


[edit on 12/1/2005 by JustMe74]



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by JustMe74


3). Hitler and the Nazis shut down all of the Masonic Lodges in Germany during their rise to power. There might have been some sort of quasi-Masonic rituals for SS officers, although I have never heard of that.


There was some sort of initiation for SS officers, based on Norse mythology. Of course, it wasn't Masonic.

The Nazis shut down the Masonic Lodges when they rose to power. Adolf Hitler was a notorious anti-Masonic conspiracy theorist, and the father of the modern "Mason-Zionist" conspiracy theories.

Masons were persecuted ruthlessly under Hitler's regime, and the Nazis even opened a museum of anti-Masonry. The propaganda posters of the nazi Anti-Masonic movement can be seen here on the website of the Center of Holocaust Studies:

click here



[edit on 1-12-2005 by Thomas Crowne]



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 10:23 AM
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Yeah the card's have a 33rd stamp on them from the 33rd of that state's grand lodge usaully if I remember correctly.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by Huabamambo
It mentions the creation of this society in Bavaria in May 1st 1776 and even shows a picture of the 1 USD with the pyramid

In the Ency. Brit.???


From what I understand Masons even call it the Craft.

Apparently yes, but this is a reference to the craft of stonemasonry, from which masonry is derived. The earliest records seem to show that masonry was a christian group, not a witchcraft group.

I've discovered through history that most Presidents except for Kennedy are elite masons.

The majority of presidents weren't masons at all, let alone 'elite masons'.

Infact the majority of wealthy/important people in this world are Masons.

This is factually incorrect.

Even Hitler and Himmler were members of the Bavarian Order of Death

Hitler was not a mason and he ordered the masons into the death camps.
[quote\]Every SS soldier had to undertake Masonic iniation in order to be an SS guards.
This is completely incorrect.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by japike
Yeah the card's have a 33rd stamp on them from the 33rd of that state's grand lodge usaully if I remember correctly.


While it's possible that they were 33rd Degree members, the 33rd Degree "stamp" and signature of the Sovereign Grand Commander, 33rd Degree are because the document was likely issued by The Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree.

...but even 32nd Degree Certificates (we call them "Patents") are issued by the Sup. Council 33* and have the seal and signature on them as do those of the Knights Commander of the Court of Honor (K.C.C.H.)

I'm still curious why the title of the thread? "How old is your grandmother?" I've heard that utilized in the Commonwealth of Kentucky to indicated the # of the Lodge a Mason belongs to. Mine would be 105.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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They were 33rd degree. I have the papers right in front of me. It even says that the document is the iniation into the 33rd degree of Scottish Rite Freemasonry.

Supreme Council of the 33rd and last Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.

the 33rd is just the beginning. After you achieve this light and you are allowed to continue up the ranks (further secret societies can go as high as 99 degrees) But after the 33rd if you are allowed to continue up the ladder this is where they begin to teach you Occultism. This is where you really begin to learn the truth. But becareful. Once you are this high they have you and you aren't getting out.

"Universi Terrarum Orbis Architectonic Ad Glorian Ingentis.."

"Rough translation= In glory of the arcitect of the Earth and the Universe..."

33rd: Top of the page. A twin headed Pheonix with a Crown, triangle with 33rd Point facing down over the crown. Bellow the Pheonix is a sword. More banners and two flags. the one on the left has the Pheonix the right has the Union Jack and Royal Crest.

Ordo Ab Chao: Order Out of Chaos. When I asked my grandfather about 9/11 sometime ago all he had to say was Ordo Ab Chao. I didn't fully understand until a few years later however. All my life I have been exposed to these things but it always went over my head until now.

32nd Logo: Another double headed pheonix.
31st : An Iron Cross which is similar to the Imperial German Cross and the Swastika: (In the Occult the Swastika is actually a good luck charm. It's a fire sign. In the 30's magazine advertisements in America used to have the Swastika but it was for good luck. 1919 Bohemian Grove Phamplet logo for that year is the Swastika.)

30th: another Iron Cross. Slightly different from the 31st.
29th: Cross on an angle with a Knights Helmet on the top and a 3 leaves on the bottome.
28th All Seeing Eye Pyriamid top facing down.
27th Another pyramid not as detailed.
26th Millenium Snake: Mouth Eating the tail T in the middle, Pyriamid on the bottome and some Hebrew symbols.
25th Pryamid facing down with a Heart and the Pie math sign in the middle.

etc etc etc...As you can see I am not making any of this up.

One of my family members said to me before he died that had he known he would have told them to shove it up their ass.

Hitler and Himmler were deeply involved in the secret societies. Himmler even had an SS Castle that was a shrine to the Occult world. The SS Logo is a very important Occultic Logo and the Skull and Bones on the Cap Badges well we all know this is the Order of Death. Precott Bush, Bush Sr. Bush Jr. and even Donkey Kerry Himself is a bonesman. People think this group is just an innocent little boys club but it couldn't be further from the truth.

In the case of Hitler and Freemasonry I guess it looks like he banned it because people could have conspired to bring him down. But he was still part of the Bavarian secret society. This much cannot be denied.

About power and wealth. Lets just look at all the basic lodges which are in Timbucktu. (To clairify. When people accuse masons of conspiring for power and things like that they are talking about places like Washington. Not some local lodge in the middle of nowhere)

In all the masons I've talked to and what have you It's typical that the people who are masons are the most well to do in the area. I've never seen poor people become involved in secret societies. I've been told that it's all about connections and perks. If you really want to be successful in this world (especially in economics and banking) secret societies really give you a hands up.

Ex: If you are applying for a job somewhere. Lets say it's not an easy job to get. Lets say the employer is a Mason. Two people remain in the race for a job. One applicant is a mason. One is not. 9/10 the job will go to the person who is a mason.

Now lets talk about the top one percent of society. The most wealthy people in the world. Corporation heads, international bankers (People who run the world economy)

To be in the top one percet of society you have to be involved in the secret societies. This is the only way you can play with the big boys. People think that almost anyone can run for office but this is not really true. To become a player in places like Washington you have to be well connected. You need friends in high places. Typically this is what leads to rampent corruption.

If there were no secret societies even among the wealthiest people in the world I guarentee this world would be a better place.

www.heart7.net...

Even if the status of a President isn't a confirmed mason they are still tied to these ultra secret societies. Look at all the Presidents who have attended the Bohemian Grove for instance. These are the biggest players and if you aren't well connected in the secret societies you won't get anywhere.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson 1816

"You are a den of vipers! I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning." President Andrew Jackson 1829-1837

"Those who surrender freedom for security deserve neither..." (B. Franklin)

"Allow me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who writes the laws."1828 - Mayer Amschel Rothschild

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U.S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." 1913 - President Woodrow Wilson

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." 1916 - President Woodrow Wilson

"From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, to those of Trotsky, Bela Kun, Rosa Luxembourg, and Emma Goldman, this world wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played a definitely recognizable role in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the nineteenth century, and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads, and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire." 1920 - Britain's Winston Churchill

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the government since the days of Andrew Jackson." President Franklin Roosevelt Nov. 21, 1933

"Nationalist individualism is the world's disease - The manifest necessity for some collective world control to eliminate warfare and the less generally admitted necessity for a collective control of the economic and biological life of mankind, are aspects of one and the same process." - 'New World Order' by H. G. Wells 1939

"How far can the life of nations, which for centuries have thought of themselves as distinct and unique, be merged with the life of other nations? How far are they prepared to sacrifice a part of their sovereignty without which there can be no effective economic or political union?" - Sir Harold Butler, CFR member July 1948

"We shall have world government whether or not you like it - by conquest or consent." - International financier and CFR member James Warburg Feb. 7, 1950

"In the counsels of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."- President Eisenhower - January 1961

"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the Americans' freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizens of this plight." President John F. Kennedy - Nov. 13, 1963

"A fever of nationalism...but the nation-state is becoming less and less competent to perform its international political tasks...These are some of the reasons pressing us to lead vigorously toward the true building of a new world order...Sooner perhaps than we may realize...there will evolve the bases for a federal structure of the free world." - Nelson Rockefeller 1962

"..dumb animals in the furtherance of our foreign policiey" Henry Kissinger talking about American soldiers.

"The crisis in the Persian Gulf offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times a new world order can emerge. We are now in sight of a United Nations that performs as envisioned by its founders." Mr.Bush Sept. 11, 1990



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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I'm kinda slow so can someone point out the conspiracy related aspect of this thread?

Thanks



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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The Point? The existence of the illuminati. It appears that the people here aren't denying their existence. To do so would only be hiding the facts.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard
I'm kinda slow so can someone point out the conspiracy related aspect of this thread?

Thanks



Well as you can see, the originator of this thread had a conspiracy about Freemasonry. When pointed in the right direction he veered off and now blames the whole thing on all "secret societies" but most especially the Illuminati.
How he got there? Well dude, you're just as enlightened as me on that one!!!


Huabamambo: Use the Search facility here at ATS. You'll find loads about the Illuminati. Hiding facts is neither here nor there. The Illuminati were short lived and ceased to exist centuries ago.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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Actually, the Illuminati ceased to exist in public centuries ago.

They have since gone underground and the organization still exists to this day. If I could bring back two of my family members from the dead they could confirm this for you since they were unlucky enough to be invited into Illuminism years ago.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by Huabamambo
Hitler and Himmler were deeply involved in the secret societies. Himmler even had an SS Castle that was a shrine to the Occult world. The SS Logo is a very important Occultic Logo and the Skull and Bones on the Cap Badges well we all know this is the Order of Death. Precott Bush, Bush Sr. Bush Jr. and even Donkey Kerry Himself is a bonesman. People think this group is just an innocent little boys club but it couldn't be further from the truth.


It is rumored that Hitler was interested in the Occult. It is also true that both Bush and Kerry are members of Skull & Bones. What do those items have to do with Freemasonry?


Originally posted by Huabamambo
In all the masons I've talked to and what have you It's typical that the people who are masons are the most well to do in the area. I've never seen poor people become involved in secret societies. I've been told that it's all about connections and perks. If you really want to be successful in this world (especially in economics and banking) secret societies really give you a hands up.


That's simply false. I know a lot of Masons in this area, and only a few could be considered "wealthy". I'll grant you that most of them are not "poor" either, but the vast, vast majority are firmly middle class.


Originally posted by Huabamambo
Ex: If you are applying for a job somewhere. Lets say it's not an easy job to get. Lets say the employer is a Mason. Two people remain in the race for a job. One applicant is a mason. One is not. 9/10 the job will go to the person who is a mason.


If only that were true!


Originally posted by Huabamambo
Now lets talk about the top one percent of society. The most wealthy people in the world. Corporation heads, international bankers (People who run the world economy)


Well at least you're not blaming "the Jews".

You know, as both a Jewish person and a Mason, sometimes I wish that these conspiracy theories were true... I'd rather be running the world than busting my ass 50+ hours a week trying to support my wife and two children.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.
Benjamin Disraeli

This Act (the Federal Reserve Act, Dec. 23rd 1913) establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President (Woodrow Wilson) signs the Bill, the invisible government of the Monetary Power will be legalised... The worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency Bill.
Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr

The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy.
Woodrow Wilson

The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities states and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses generally referred to as 'international bankers.' This little coterie... run our government for their own selfish ends. It operates under cover of a self-created screen...[and] seizes...our executive officers... legislative bodies... schools... courts... newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.
John F Hylan

Secret societies have existed among all peoples, savage and civilized, since the beginning of recorded history...It is beyond question that the secret societies of all ages have exercised a considerable degree of political influence...
Manley P. Hall

Capital must protect itself in every way... Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principle men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd.
J. P. Morgan

*When I signed up for this forum it said to deny ignorance.

Why are people here still upholding ignorance? Do you people have something to lose should the information about the Illuminati get out of the bag?

If that is true I have no sympathy for you in your demise.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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I actually found the thread and poster, very informative and interesting. Especially the part where he was poo pooed over the 33rd degree then pretty well showed he was speaking the truth of the papers he has in his possession.

Does the illuminati still exist, good question, I don't think anyone is really armed with enough facts to say it doesn't.

He also asked a question on the difference between elite freemasonry and the standard, I too would like to see this questions answer.

And someone pointed out that only 14 presidents were masons, were the others members of any other secret societies?



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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If you want to run the world Just Me then you have to work your way up the ladder.

I will give you some advice.

If you can manage to make it up to the 33rd they will ask you a question on faith. If you truly believe in the God of Heaven they will not promote you higher then the 33rd. However if you say that Money is your God they will promote you even higher.

*
Masonry is just that Masonry. It's the outer circle. The inner circle is not Freemasonry. We the people who are on the outside make the mistake of failing to distinguish between the Illuminati and the Masons. But it is all to convieniet for the Illuminists. Officially Masonry is a diversion.

When people accuse groups of conspiring for wealth and power it is really not the masons they are accusing. Even though Bush Sr. Bush Jr are 33rd degree Masons they are not true masons.

Masonry believes in the brotherhood of fellow man. Bush Jr. and his cronies only believe in war and sufferring to the world so they are not true masons. They might be perverting the beliefs of Masonry but they ultimatly believe in furthering their own agenda's.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by Huabamambo
If you can manage to make it up to the 33rd they will ask you a question on faith. If you truly believe in the God of Heaven they will not promote you higher then the 33rd. However if you say that Money is your God they will promote you even higher.


This is a conspiracy theory promoted by Jim Shaw, and has been proven to be pretty much bunk. You can read about him here: www.masonicinfo.com...

Googling for "elite freemasonry" brings up some interesting, though misinformed, web sites, like this one:
www.global-elite.org...

And by the way, neither Bush is a Mason. As I said, the last president that was a Mason was Ford. Clinton was in DeMolay, but never became a Mason.

[edit on 12/1/2005 by JustMe74]

[edit on 12/1/2005 by JustMe74]



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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lol.

The only thing I agree with you on that is that you have debunked only one person.

Why don't you investigate the Illuminati more thoroughly? Question every high high up mason you know and can think of.

As for me I have been there done that and have had my life threated more times then I care to remember.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by Huabamambo
lol.

The only thing I agree with you on that is that you have debunked only one person.

Why don't you investigate the Illuminati more thoroughly? Question every high high up mason you know and can think of.

As for me I have been there done that and have had my life threated more times then I care to remember.


I have investigated it, and found no merit in the wild-eyed theories about some secret cabal that is controlling the world. I think you should read this article:
www.publiceye.org...



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 02:54 PM
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There might be other reasons you're being threatened. When I was younger, I was threatened a few times for being dopey.



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