Crowley, Secret Societies and SRA

This was getting offtopic for the the Let's put an end to ALL secret societies thread so I'd thought I'd start a new one.

Originally posted by markusjharper
Cug, I don’t like you sowing confusion into something that is already confirmed by John Decamp, Ted Gunderson and many other investigators in the FBI and government.

You might want to take a look at the official FBI report about SRA by Kenneth V. Lanning (Behavioral Science Unit, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, Federal Bureau of Investigation) Investigator's Guide to Allegations of 'Ritual' Child Abuse as this has already be debunked.

I also do not appreciate your attempting to belittle others by acting oh la-di, da-di da, we just have fun and everything is ok.

Yet you suggest that I eat babies is quite OK.. I have to question the value system that lets people think that.

Get real and understand that people can and will do horrible things in the name of selfishness!

I might as well suggest the same thing to you! There are Christians who suggest that witholding medician, and medical treatment to their sick children because God will take care of it. If that not child abuse nothing is.

You wrote:

Modern Satanists think Crowley was a wuss.

May be you think this is some kind of joke?

First of all, I could care less what so-called Satanists think

OK I think I get it.. if you call yourself a Satanist your not.. if you claim your not a Satanist you are.

and second, when an FBI investigator finds the symbols of Belial on the walls and the alter, and the shackles, and the dungeon, and the blood and candles, and the inverted pentagram and magic circle, and the dead bodies (like a little boy who was slowly skinned alive) and the evidence to support the usage of the lesser Keys of Solomon and books like Grimorium Verum, what the heck do think you know?

Got a case number? A news story? And a fyi I use the Lesser keys all the time. So I guess you will claim I have blood on my hands?

Are you an expert just because you associate yourself with those who indulge in the passions of the perverted Thelma? Oh please! I have another book of Crowley in which he explains how to involve children in sex calling it rape and emancipation. If you persist, I will truly embarrass you and post it all here.

My expertise is just what comes from being a practicing occultist of 18 years now. Oh and it's Thelema. you might as well spell what you hate correctly. Show me the quote.. I have a feeling you will be the one embarrassed. I'm pretty sure you are referring to Crowley's comments on the Book of the Law. But you can see for yourself that the only connection between children and rape is this.

www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comment.html
Such acts as rape, and the assault or seduction of infants, may therefore be justly regarded as offences against the Law of Liberty, and repressed in the interests of that Law.

In other words it's a bad thing to do.

I said they use his book as a guide (Satanists use it and many others also) and they use the Grimorium Verum also to invoke elementals. I have this book, Cug.

Lucky man. Do you have the Waite or Shah translations? You might as well know they are both kinda sloppy with the translations, and not to mention the french copy they translated from was flawed its self. The Italian edition is considered the better copy and it exists only online as far as I know (Otherwise I'd have a hard copy of it.)

Back to the subject at hand. Honestly the Grimorium Verum is not used that much. If you would like I could send you a list of the one we use quite a bit. (The greater and lesser key are the most popular.)

When you refer to Satanists you attempt to deliberately sow confusion into the readers here, as you know only too well that the definition of “Satanist” is a varied as are the lies propagated by Thelma followers such as yourself, no?

Thanks for calling me a lier.. your sure a good sport about it. OK what is your ] definition of Satanist?

Satanists do and have used his works but not ONLY his. Stop distracting from the point in fact since I know that Aton Levy and other so-called Satanists have in fact copied Alistair Crowley’s work and unless you mange to conjure up some substantial OTHER alternative, than I suggest you knock it off.

What would you like? (Getting out my conjuring wand)

Apparently, Alister Crowley would disagree with you:

From the book (which I own) written by the “sick-o” Alister Crowley called “Majic In Theory and Practice”:

You own the book yet you cant spell the title? Magick in Theory and Practice. Sorry that was a bit snarky I'll admit, but I personally hate it when magick is spelled with a j, nothing but new age foolishness IMHO

"It would be unwise to condemn as irrational the practice of those savages who tear the heart and liver from an adversary, and devour them while yet warm. In any case it was the theory of the ancient Magicians, that any living being is a storehouse of energy varying in quantity according to the size and health of the animal, and in quality according to its mental and moral character. At the death of the animal this energy is liberated suddenly.

The animal should therefore be killed within the Circle, or the Triangle, as the case may be, so that its energy cannot escape. An animal should be selected whose nature accords with that of the ceremony --- thus, by sacrificing a female lamb one would not obtain any appreciate quantity of the fierce energy useful to a Magician who was invoking Mars. In such a case a ram would be more suitable. And this ram should be virgin --- the whole potential of its original total energy should not have been diminished in any way. For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim. "

Yep he is indeed talking about the theory of sacrifice and how it is practiced in places like the Bible, if you read the opening of this chapter Crowley mentions Gods preferences for Abel over Cain because Abel used a living thing for his sacrifice.

I have both the eBook and the book from Amazon.com. Crowley used the word "victim". I noticed that the publishers have deliberately tried to imply that Alistair Crowley never meant to “really” kill a little boy but rather it has something to do with sex. I ask of ATS reader to read the publishers notes below and please decide for yourselves, just how sad an attempt this cover up is, by trying to hide the obvious truth which Crowley was referring to.

The "publisher" in this case was Crowley those are his footnotes! (With the exception of the note by WEH.. Bill Hendricks was the one who copied the book and put it online back in the BBS days.)

I'll even swear on my holy books that the "secret" is indeed Sex magick. But you seem to have such a low opinion of me I don't think it would do any good. Anyway the book was published in '29 and if Crowley out and out mentioned sex magick. The book would of been banned as obscene. I'd go into more but I I really don't think I can get that graphic here.

I have a another book called "Cloven Hoof" and it talks about how to kill a little baby by cutting deep incision in the form of an upside-down cross etc.

But "Cloven Hoof" is not Crowley's book so why would we follow that?

The sacrifical dagger, and sex with children are promoted in many of Alister Crowley's books.

That is just not true.

I have a ton of his books here because when I was studying the occult, I intended to "know thy enemy" and thus rout him out

I'd bet I have more than you. and not only do I study them, it do it.

Well this might be hopless but here goes.

Markus, There is plenty of stuff about Thelema that is true and will help you convince others that we are bad (If that is what you want to do.). I fully admit it. Things like this verse in the Book of the Law (our "bible" for lack of a better term)

3:51 With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

that would offend any one calling themselfs Christian. then you have the next 2 verses.

52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.
53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

More offended people. Then you have the whole sex thing, and our open attitudes about it. We do envoke demons, gods, angels (but I'd say most of us don't think of those words the same way as you might.)

You really don't have to go for the ritual abuse crap and it is really not there. If you the true stuff you would have pretty much the same effect IMHO.

cug, while the church of thelema, freemsonry, etc... may not be responsible for sra, it does happen. to say that it has been debunked would be to ignore such cases as the franklin community federal credit union scandal in omaha, nebraska or the mcmartin pre-school case in l.a. or the washington call-boy scandal in d.c. (this particular case may give some clues as to why the f.b.i. is so eager to claim these accusations as false).

[edit on 30-11-2005 by Nagell]

You might want to take a look at the official FBI report about SRA by Kenneth V. Lanning (Behavioral Science Unit, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, Federal Bureau of Investigation) Investigator's Guide to Allegations of 'Ritual' Child Abuse as this has already be debunked.

Mr. Ken Lanning is as dirty as sin. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that, as I only wanted to prove that Crowley was speaking about actual physical bloody sacrifice that you might run across a source that was named by the Head of FBI Ted Gunderson as a liar and someone who was on the “CIA payroll”. Here’s one example:

Ted Gunderson was investigating the satanic child abuse case in the Omaha Mcmartin preschool back in 1983. Ted had found tunnels dug under the preschool and noticed that the children were taken under the school and were involved in snuff films and even prostituted by being flown into a mountainous area. I personally saw the photographs, Cug. This is serious stuff – I hope you get what I’m telling you. Anyhow, the children were involved with a CIA front group known as “The Finders” and I’m sure you may have heard of them before.

During the investigation, Ted hired an archeologist because he noticed that the tunnels had been recently filled in to cover up any evidence of wrong doing. Ted also found a plastic Disney bag inside the Tunnel with the date 1982, which must have blown in the tunnels before being filled in 1983. Well, Ken Lanning implied (while lying to the Jury) and accused Ted of planting the plastic Disney bag in the Tunnel!! Ken is trash and you had best do a better Google search next time. I do not need to do one to know the truth of this case.

Yet you suggest that I eat babies is quite OK.. I have to question the value system that lets people think that.

I did not say that you would unless you were very hungry. LOL I was simply speaking truthfully regarding Alistair Crowley’s writings.

I might as well suggest the same thing to you! There are Christians who suggest that witholding medician, and medical treatment to their sick children because God will take care of it. If that not child abuse nothing is.

Yes, but you must understand what it means to be a Christian. You cannot call yourself a Christian unless you act as one. For example, were those horrible Crusaders, real Christians? I used to think they were dumb superstitious old-age Christians when I was young and that we Christians evolved, but guess what? They were not Christians but Jesuits and Romans or Catholics and that also explains the hatred they had for the Baptists, Calvinists and Reformers who wanted to be free to worship in their freedom from any pope. The Pope is not a Christian when he “says, I am the king” for Christ already told us where the master of the heart lies – and it is not found in the flesh or under any crown.

OK I think I get it.. if you call yourself a Satanist your not.. if you claim your not a Satanist you are.

My point was that I do not care that some Satanists think Crowley was a wuss. And unless you know all Satanists, how can you have known that “Satanist think he was a wuss”? Chose your words because I know Satanists who adore Crowley.

Got a case number? A news story? And a fyi I use the Lesser keys all the time. So I guess you will claim I have blood on my hands?

I have many and you can refer to the Dr. Jeffery Macdonald case and the ritual abuse McMartin Case. Also I already mentioned John Decamp and he even wrote a book called “The Franklin Cover-up”. The black singer Larry King ( a banker) was sent to prison but sadly John Decamp was told by Bill Colby of CIA to drop the cases, as he (Bill Colby) was a decent CIA guy and knew that its was too big and went too deep, and that John would surely lose his family etc.

My expertise is just what comes from being a practicing occultist of 18 years now. Oh and it's Thelema. you might as well spell what you hate correctly. Show me the quote.. I have a feeling you will be the one embarrassed. I'm pretty sure you are referring to Crowley's comments on the Book of the Law. But you can see for yourself that the only connection between children and rape is this.

Correct – I was ready to post the quotes to prove my point but you just proved my point for me. Sex and Emancipation etc.

: www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comment.html
Such acts as rape, and the assault or seduction of infants, may therefore be justly regarded as offences against the Law of Liberty, and repressed in the interests of that Law.

In other words it's a bad thing to do.

Yes, it is but people do it because they think selfish passions can escape Karma, or don’t care.

Lucky man. Do you have the Waite or Shah translations? You might as well know they are both kinda sloppy with the translations, and not to mention the french copy they translated from was flawed its self. The Italian edition is considered the better copy and it exists only online as far as I know (Otherwise I'd have a hard copy of it.)

Back to the subject at hand. Honestly the Grimorium Verum is not used that much. If you would like I could send you a list of the one we use quite a bit. (The greater and lesser key are the most popular.)

I am using another esoteric practice that teaches me to heal first and work on the egoism part first, before I play. I follow the Essene way, more than the Gnostic way.

Thanks for calling me a lier.. your sure a good sport about it. OK what is your ] definition of Satanist?

Someone who in faith and practice work in opposition to that which is love. Everything else, is a matter of opinion.

What would you like? (Getting out my conjuring wand)

Thanks, I’ll let you hold onto to your Hollywood.

You own the book yet you cant spell the title? Magick in Theory and Practice. Sorry that was a bit snarky I'll admit, but I personally hate it when magick is spelled with a j, nothing but new age foolishness IMHO

It was a joke. But I even gave you the page numbers!

Yep he is indeed talking about the theory of sacrifice and how it is practiced in places like the Bible, if you read the opening of this chapter Crowley mentions Gods preferences for Abel over Cain because Abel used a living thing for his sacrifice.

He was talking about the ancient magicians. If he was talking about Abel and Cain, he would have said “Abel and Cain”. The story was a parable and the ONLY reason that God liked the offering of Abel more, was because he gave with all his heart and Cain gave with spite and greed etc., ironically, then Cain killed Abel out of jealousy. Cog, God wants mercy, not sacrifice.

The "publisher" in this case was Crowley those are his footnotes! (With the exception of the note by WEH.. Bill Hendricks was the one who copied the book and put it online back in the BBS days.)

I'll even swear on my holy books that the "secret" is indeed Sex magick. But you seem to have such a low opinion of me I don't think it would do any good. Anyway the book was published in '29 and if Crowley out and out mentioned sex magick. The book would of been banned as obscene. I'd go into more but I I really don't think I can get that graphic here.

Actually, I respect you for admitting that. But Crowley justifies sexual abuse of children by the Beast 666 exposing them to sex at a younger age etc.

But "Cloven Hoof" is not Crowley's book so why would we follow that?

Because Aton Levy said that his Church of Satan never engaged in any harmful practice but I have a written testimony of an-ex member saying that they used to steal the ether of infants for self serving reasons and depending on the season, the homage ritual was used also.

Markus, There is plenty of stuff about Thelema that is true and will help you convince others that we are bad (If that is what you want to do.). I fully admit it…………..”

“………..You really don't have to go for the ritual abuse crap and it is really not there. If you the true stuff you would have pretty much the same effect IMHO.

I'm surprised by your honesty. How come so many other followers of Thelema and the Masons are never this honest? In fact, I am very open to certain understandings and I would rather like to hear your opinion of Thelema, more than that coming from Crowley.



[edit on 30-11-2005 by markusjharper]

Originally posted by markusjharper

Ted Gunderson was investigating the satanic child abuse case in the Omaha Mcmartin preschool back in 1983. Ted had found tunnels dug under the preschool and noticed that the children were taken under the school and were involved in snuff films and even prostituted by being flown into a mountainous area. I personally saw the photographs, Cug. This is serious stuff – I hope you get what I’m telling you. Anyhow, the children were involved with a CIA front group known as “The Finders” and I’m sure you may have heard of them before.

The whole McMartin thing is a hoax.. Well we are going to have to agree to dissagree here. BTW Snuff films are an urban legend.

Yes, but you must understand what it means to be a Christian. You cannot call yourself a Christian unless you act as one.

OK now use the same argument on my side.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

That is Thelema in a nutshell, and everything Thelemic revolves around it. It means that one should follow their Will (Think "true calling") and do nothing other than that. Now many people tend to think this means do whatever the hell you want and others be damned. But that is far from the truth. What you need to understand is that law applies to everyone and because it applies to everyone you cant interfer with their Will. Killing someone is about as much interfering as you can get. Now if you violate this most basic of rules there is no way you can be a Thelemite.

Now if someone reads Crowleys works, and does something stupid because they don't understand it.. it is not Crowleys fault any more than it's the Bibles fault when someone doesn't understand it and does something stupid.

My point was that I do not care that some Satanists think Crowley was a wuss. And unless you know all Satanists, how can you have known that “Satanist think he was a wuss”? Chose your words because I know Satanists who adore Crowley.

Must be the exception that proves the rule if they adored Crowley they wouldn't be Satanists. The connection is with those Satanist who do Magick. Crowley was really the first person to write openly about magick, and at the same time his works were easy to find. actually that's the reason you see Crowleys influance in all sorts of modern occultism.. thats where many groups took bits and pieces from. (For example the wiccan an it harm none, do what thou wilt)

Got a case number? A news story? And a fyi I use the Lesser keys all the time. So I guess you will claim I have blood on my hands?

I have many

Where are they?

: www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comment.html
Such acts as rape, and the assault or seduction of infants, may therefore be justly regarded as offences against the Law of Liberty, and repressed in the interests of that Law.

In other words it's a bad thing to do.

Yes, it is but people do it because they think selfish passions can escape Karma, or don’t care.

Like I said if they don't care they are not Thelemites. Just like say the BTK Killer.. a leader in his Christian church can not be called a christian. See what I'm trying to say?

what is your ] definition of Satanist?

Someone who in faith and practice work in opposition to that which is love. Everything else, is a matter of opinion.

You might be interested that the closing of the Thelemic greeting is "Love is the law, love under will" So you see Crowley's teaching in not working in opposition to love.

But Crowley justifies sexual abuse of children by the Beast 666 exposing them to sex at a younger age etc.

Again show me where.

Because Aton Levy said that his Church of Satan never engaged in any harmful practice but I have a written testimony of an-ex member saying that they used to steal the ether of infants for self serving reasons and depending on the season, the homage ritual was used also.

OK so we will do what that book said because Anton said that his Church of Satan never engaged in any harmful practice? HUH? Why would Anton influence us??????

I'm surprised by your honesty. How come so many other followers of Thelema and the Masons are never this honest?

Well here you came out with six guns blazing.. the Masons were ducking and shooting back! And Honestly I don't think you ever ran into any real Thelemites.. there is not a whole lot of us you know. But any thelemite would tell you the same thing. Go to where the Thelemites hang out and listen to them talk to each other.

In fact, I am very open to certain understandings and I would rather like to hear your opinion of Thelema, more than that coming from Crowley.

I'd be happy to but to go much more into it would be WAY off topic in this forum.

Originally posted by Cug
The whole McMartin thing is a hoax.. Well we are going to have to agree to dissagree here.

sorry cug, but evidence seems to lean in favor of abuse at mcmartin.

in preparation for the trial, 389 toddlers were interviewed- nearly all of them described abuse at the pre-school, and do to this day. some 80% had physical symptoms, including blunt force trauma of sexual areas, scarring, rectal bleeding and sexual diseases(chlamydia).

the case ended in a hung jury, not a not-guilty verdict. all 7 jurors believed that abuse had occurred, though who was responsible was undetermined.

at the time of the trial, the children maintained that they were abused and moved to and from the centre via tunnels. this statement was the object of much ridicule. d.a. ira reiner declared the tunnel stories unfounded. "without going under the concrete floor of the pre-school."

"I still don't know how anyone could believe all that bull. Especially with a school as wide open as ours and people coming and going at all times. Or who could actually believe there were tunnels."- Virginia McMartin

"I asked my daughter, 'How could they have taken you to these places without being seen?' And she answered me as though I was silly to ask such a question. She said, 'through the tunnels of course.'"-Jackie MacGauley(mother of 2 children that attended mcmartin)

but there were tunnels. parents began to dig with shovels in an area pointed out by a 9 year old former pupil of the centre. the child told them to dig behind a cement planter in the northeast corner. when turtle shells and other bones were discovered(the children had maintained that animals were tortured and killed as an example of what could happen to them), the parents stopped digging and contacted the d.a.'s office.

archaeologist gary stickel was retained by the parents of the victims. he was at first skeptical and initially sided with the buckeys, believing the abuse allegations to be no more than hysterics.

in may 1990 the tunnels were discovered. alongside stickel were other archaeologists, 2 geologists, a professional excavator, a carbon dating specialist and a professional photographer to document the digs progress and findings.

on exposing the entrance, stickel used remote ground sensing equipment to read the terrain conductivity of the empty lot next to the centre. robert beer, a respected geophysicist used an electromagnetic scanner to survey the area. the tunnel entrance was exactly where the children said it would be.

the l.a. times ridiculed the excavation for months and when the tunnels were unearthed they ran a one paragraph news item, noting 'evidence' of tunnels had been found. and after that... nothing.

it was found by professionals at the site that the tunnels had been dug around 1966. 1966 was the year that the centre was built, by ray buckeys father.

Originally posted by Nagell

sorry cug, but evidence seems to lean in favor of abuse at mcmartin.

So you think child molesters take kids out of a secret tunnel and then transport them by hot air balloon?

Where are the 13 entrances to the tunnel the kids claimed to use.

The children remembered secret rooms located in the vacant lot, the parents dug it up and nothing was found, the children then changed their story.. the rooms were now under the building.

The children claimed they were flushed down toilets, to a place where they were abused

The "tunnels" in fact were filled trenches dating back to WWII

Ray Buckey way the only one who had any charges that were hung. he was acquitted on 39 of 52 counts, he was later retried on 13 counts and again a hung jury.

There was a complete lack of the type of physical evidence that is normally seen with sexually abused children. However, the doctor performed some new tests which have since been shown to be useless as a predictor of abuse.

and in recent news.

The magazine section of the Los Angeles Times published the first retraction from a McMartin student in 2005-OCT-30. Kyle Sapp, now known as Kyle Zirpolo, was eight years of age when he made his accusations 21 years ago. He now wants to tell the truth and apologize to the defendants. He says that he made his accusations because of pressure from his family, the community and the social workers who interviewed him. It remains to be seen whether other students, now in their late 20s or early 30s will follow Zirpolo's lead.

references for the above
www.religioustolerance.org...
www.religioustolerance.org...
www.religioustolerance.org...

Abuse may of happened but is was not SRA.

i saw this at the bottom of the mcmartin link:mcmartin revisited.
i would consider alex constantine far more truthful about this case than l.a. times' child abuse apologist debbie nathan and her ilk.

i suppose alex constantine wouldn't appeal to you. as he has written about candace reos deposition to police and the riverside county sheriffs report on a six year old boy, locked in a shipping crate.

those kids at mcmartin must have been psychic then, to know there were tunnels under the centre?

isn't it funny that these cults, such as the oto are founded by people with intelligence connections.

[edit on 1-12-2005 by Nagell]

Originally posted by Cug
You own the book yet you cant spell the title? Magick in Theory and Practice. Sorry that was a bit snarky I'll admit, but I personally hate it when magick is spelled with a j, nothing but new age foolishness IMHO

Well technically the addition of the "k" to "magic" was new age foolishness. Crowley added the "k", prior to that it was just "magic". Granted Crowley had a good reason for doing this. He wanted to distinguish the diference between "magic" and the forces he was speaking of. Good job refuting the absurd attacks against Crowley and his Thelemic philosophy btw.

[edit on 053131p://8u20 by Lucid Lunacy]