Are taxes a kind of theft?

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posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 11:59 AM
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Are social programs (welfare etc.) funded by taxes a form of robbery? Or you always have the choice to vote for parties against taxation, or simply leave the country?




posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 12:21 PM
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no. it's slavery

and if you refuse to pay, the big man with the whip will get you!!!!



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 12:43 PM
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There is a saying, that the Government detests thieves and robbers.....It doesn't like the competition.

Technically speaking though, from one point of view, they do take your money without you having a say in the matter, so I suppose it would be theft.

On the other hand, you benefit from the taxes collected and spent on various things from Hospitals to Schools. So, without tax, we would have to either pay for EVERYTHING ourselves, which would have obvious social repercussions, or not have the services we expect from a modern society.

Your choice....

Move to Angola if you don't like tax



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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If you believe the Democrats' rhetoric, taxes are not theft, but really an investment in the future.

I don't


edit:

You inspired me to bring back an old sig quote of mine


[edit on 11/30/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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I don't mind paying taxes if the services are provided that the taxes are supposed to pay for. The GOP however likes to service the mega-corps rather than the citizens of this country. No child left behind: right!

The Republicans favor corperate welfare combined with "trickle down" theroy. As a small business man I feel "trickled on" by the current admisistration.

[edit on 30-11-2005 by whaaa]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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No it is not theft. Taxes are part of any organized society and are essential for that society to function. Unless you are an anarchist then you need the order and safety that a civilized society provides.

Tax money does more that feed welfare moms.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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At this time I choose to remove my respone to this posting.

My response to aforementioned thread was dealing with the budget numbers and how the money is spent.

After researching my source, I decided I do not agree with a certain stance the source holds steadfast, so I pull my endorsement of said source!

Sorry for any confusion or pain this post or pulling of stated post may have caused you or your family.

Thank you,

- One Man Short ®




[edit on 30-11-2005 by One Man Short of Manhood]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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I like how you republicans blame the Democrats for all the taxes, if you tards didn't spend all the money on fake wars and other bs we wouldn't need to raise taxes to pay for it all. If the next president doesn't raise some taxes and take care of this reckless spending then this country will be in some serious trouble.

Also if all the people in this country would actually pay their taxes then we wouldn't need to raise them because we could pay off the debt quicker. China and Japan lend us a lot of money, if we ever get on their bad side it won't be good for our economy.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by NinjaCodeMonkey
I like how you republicans blame the Democrats for all the taxes, if you tards didn't spend all the money on fake wars and other bs we wouldn't need to raise taxes to pay for it all.


I am going to give you 2 cents worth of free advice once passed on to me by a friend of mine, Mr. Beezer.


The quickest way to banning is lemon over sugar


Or something like that, you will have to ask him to know exactly what he said. Anyway if you don't want a warning and you want to continue to post and debate here, I would suggest that you refrain from name calling and personal attacks.

Just my take on this whole thing.

We now return to our regulary scheduled political debate.

- One Man Short ®

[edit on 30-11-2005 by One Man Short of Manhood]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 05:39 AM
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Yes it is theft.
You pay taxes, because of the Federal Reserve. When it was intaced so was income tax. That is so the goverment can pay off its loans.

You work for 3 months just to pay your taxes. Also they tax everything. You still pay a phone tax. THat tax is for the Spanish American war. We still pay it and it is not going away.

Besides you dont own anything. Your car, house, couch, it all belongs to the goverment. Just dont pay your taxes and find out.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 07:35 AM
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Originally posted by FredT
No it is not theft. Taxes are part of any organized society and are essential for that society to function. Unless you are an anarchist then you need the order and safety that a civilized society provides.

Tax money does more that feed welfare moms.


There's a reason why you're my favorite Republican on the planet Fred. You're reality-based.



posted on Dec, 20 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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The argument that taxes represent theft is based on regarding all of what your business makes or your employer pays you as "your" money, and the portion of it going to taxes as "stolen."

When a robber holds you up on the street, what you would have had without that is found by adding what he took to what you have afterwards, right? Let's do the same figuring for taxes.

If the government took no money from the citizens in taxes, there would be:

No roads
No police
No military
No fire departments
No courts
No laws
No state education
No property protection
No enforceable contracts
No national borders

I missed some stuff but that will do for a start.

What you would have if there were no taxes isn't simply what you make minus what they take. It's what you could make given the above situation -- minus what they take.

I could go into details here, but is it really necessary? The truth is you wouldn't be able to make any money at all absent the government. And that means you couldn't make the money absent taxes.

You can argue that the amount you pay in taxes isn't fair, that other people should be paying more and you less. You can argue that your tax money is being spent improperly. You can argue that it's being wasted. You can argue a lot of things.

But what you can't argue is that you don't owe a share of "your" wealth to the public interest to cover the cost of the government services you depend on to make the money in the first place. And like any debt owed to any creditor, the money you owe in taxes isn't yours. It properly belongs to the government. Taxes, then, are no more theft than is the bill you get from your credit cards.



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 10:42 PM
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I guess the fact they force you to pay is a kind of robbery, i think the theft depends on where the money goes.
It might not be theft when you pay it over believing it will go to be spent by those you elected in your best interest, but if it ends up being used to fund airports in israel or bail out corporations, then you could really say it wasnt used in your best interest and it was stolen.



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 05:20 AM
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taxes are not theft because they are the contributions all must pay for the use of the social commons and to maintain them.

My only problem is really when the taxes are used poorly and wasted by governments. What one considers a 'waste' is of course is upto the individual. A waste for me is large defence expenditure, corporate welfare and subsidies for businesses and industries that are not in the national interest to keep.

On social welfare there is not a more nobler pursuit for a government to take on attempting to improve the lives of its citizens. This only goes wrong when the welfare program is not used to bring people into employment and out of poverty but is just a $400 cheque a fortnight that has no strings attached. It is the governments duty (and the society it represents) to bring people out of poverty, even if they bring them kicking and screaming.

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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I agree completely drfunk and have voted you way abovetopsecret, but as you said, what is waste to us isn't to other's. It just might be possible that we need a little of both types of spending.

I just wish that corporations (they are people too) were held to the same tax standards as average americans. We don't get to dennounce our citizenship to avoid taxation. If we could, I think all of my neighbors would be citizens of the Bahamas.



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 08:41 AM
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Speaking of taxes I have a question. I don't mind paying taxes to drive down a smooth highway as far as you want or need to go. But what service does land tax serve other than keeping an individual from getting rich.

For instance a person with say 20 acres and a house will pay around $4,500. oo a year in property taxes when he can barley afford to pay the bills it takes to own the place and keep it up. Thats money that could be used to have your home payed for way ahead of schedule.



posted on Jan, 8 2006 @ 08:02 AM
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The fact that many of you like taxation does not change the fact that it is theft.

You can agree with it, you can think it is a great thing, your position can be mainstream and you can think I am crazy/stupid for not supporting taxation, however none of that changes the fact that it is theft.

We are not a democracy! Just because most people dont think that all taxation is theft does not make it legal! What do we call the un-lawfull taking of money? Theft, even if you say it is not.

Try not paying your taxes and see what happens. If you have anything of value men with guns will come and take it from you, against your will. "Well, we voted in the poloticians that passed those tax laws", whines the brave socialist demopublican. Nope, sorry, it dont work like that!

Income tax goes against the very spirit and law this republic was built on.
Oh, but of course the constitution was changed in order to allow for income taxation, right? Go look at the lies told in order to make that happen. People were told that it (income tax) would never be more than one or two percent. They were told it was to fight the war. They were told a number of lies. They were robbed.

The founders did provide a means for the funding of the federal government and it did not involve taxing the citizen, one of the main things they started the revolution over.

Taxation is theft. You can call a pile of crap a rose, you can plug your nose so you dont smell it and look the other way; in the end, you are gonna have to call it what it is and clean it up.



posted on Jan, 8 2006 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout
The fact that many of you like taxation does not change the fact that it is theft.

Apparently and quite obviously, you have no reality based concept as to what theft is? Try this:


According to the Oxford American Dictionary and Language Guide (1999), which, like any dictionary, purports to state the everyday meanings of words, "theft" means "the act or an instance of stealing." Alas, this helps us only if the word "stealing" is better understood than "theft," which is unlikely. So what is stealing? To steal is to "take (another person's property) illegally" or to "take (property, etc.) without right or permission, esp. in secret with the intention of not returning it."

As these definitions show, the essence of theft - that which makes it what it is and not some other thing, such as burglary, robbery, or borrowing - is the taking of someone's property without right or permission. If I ask for your old lawnmower and you give it to me, there is no theft. But if I ask and you say "No," then I commit theft if I take it anyway. Property is another concept that needs analysis, but for our purposes here we can think of it as that to which one is entitled by the prevailing rules, however unjust one thinks those rules are. So the question whether taxation is theft reduces to this question: "Is taxation the taking of someone's property without right or permission?"

Is Taxation Theft?

Furthermore, you are arguing against the long history of world taxation, while ignoring the vast contributions that taxation provides. Taxation is in no way theft, and you are simply inadequately arguing libertarian entitlement theory.


When we agree to work, we agree to a taxed wage -- like I said above, the tax is simply part of the cost, it's something one consents to as part of the social transaction. There is no "force" involved, and no "theft". Of course, if you later refuse to pay the agreed cost, then the tax collectors will come knocking at your door. But try reneging on your debts to anyone else and see how they react!

Why Taxation Is Not Theft
Is Taxation Stealing?






seekerof

[edit on 8-1-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Jan, 8 2006 @ 08:47 AM
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I really believe the government could do without our taxes today. I don't think they need the money to go foward, I think now its about keeping people busy from the cradle to the grave. If there were no taxes of any kind most of us could have retired from working long ago. That would give people to much idle time to medal in the affairs of the government.



posted on Jan, 8 2006 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by cavscout
The fact that many of you like taxation does not change the fact that it is theft.

Apparently and quite obviously, you have no reality based concept as to what theft is? Try this:


According to the Oxford American Dictionary and Language Guide (1999), which, like any dictionary, purports to state the everyday meanings of words, "theft" means "the act or an instance of stealing." Alas, this helps us only if the word "stealing" is better understood than "theft," which is unlikely. So what is stealing? To steal is to "take (another person's property) illegally" or to "take (property, etc.) without right or permission, esp. in secret with the intention of not returning it."

As these definitions show, the essence of theft - that which makes it what it is and not some other thing, such as burglary, robbery, or borrowing - is the taking of someone's property without right or permission. If I ask for your old lawnmower and you give it to me, there is no theft. But if I ask and you say "No," then I commit theft if I take it anyway. Property is another concept that needs analysis, but for our purposes here we can think of it as that to which one is entitled by the prevailing rules, however unjust one thinks those rules are. So the question whether taxation is theft reduces to this question: "Is taxation the taking of someone's property without right or permission?"

Is Taxation Theft?


Seeker, the link you provided above was to an article concluding that taxation is theft, and stated (better than I did) the same thing I did.

From Seeker's above link:

Finally, it doesn't follow from the fact that I don't deserve my wealth that it is morally permissible for someone (including the state) to coerce me into disgorging it. Nor does it follow that it is morally permissible, all things considered, to take it from me without my permission. If I give it away, fine. Doing so may even make me a good person. But unless one is a moral imperialist or totalitarian, there is logical space between (1) it being good to do X and either (2) it being obligatory to do X or (3) it being right for the state to coerce the doing of X.




Furthermore, you are arguing against the long history of world taxation, while ignoring the vast contributions that taxation provides.
Like I said before, even you (or everybody) thinks taxation provides "vast contributions" that does not mean it is not theft. You can argue that taxes are good. You can argue that taxes supported by the majority. You cant, however, argue that taxation is not theft.

Go into any third grade class and ask the kids this question: if you tell me not take your money, but I take it anyway and give it to someone I think needs it more than you do, did I steal from you? You know the what they will tell you.


Taxation is in no way theft, and you are simply inadequately arguing libertarian entitlement theory.

No, you are wrong. This is no theory, it is the lack of theory. If I say dont take what is mine, and you take it anyway, you are stealing.

You are bringing theory into this.




When we agree to work, we agree to a taxed wage -- like I said above, the tax is simply part of the cost, it's something one consents to as part of the social transaction. There is no "force" involved, and no "theft". Of course, if you later refuse to pay the agreed cost, then the tax collectors will come knocking at your door. But try reneging on your debts to anyone else and see how they react!

Why Taxation Is Not Theft
Is Taxation Stealing?


What, I am not entitled to the full wages I work for? That society owns the product of my labor? I enter into a contract of taxation when I agree to work? Well, seeing as government, on behalf of the majority (who only supported taxation because they were lied to about it), decided to break the law and the spirit our nation was built on enforcing regulation that says I cant work "under the table", I am forced to fill out tax forms or not make money. Forced. Who initiated that force? The government. Taking money by force is theft.



[edit on 8-1-2006 by cavscout]





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