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Catholic Church bans gay priests

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posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Well, Im not sure what to make of this. The Catholic Church has banned actively-gay men from the priesthood.
I guess the Bishop of New Hampshire got his answer:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I hope they don't think this will end the pedophile problem. Because being gay and being a pedophile aren't the same thing at all.

It seems the new Pope will be taking the Catholic Church in a different direction that his predecessor, Pope John Paul. I also think we can forget about thinking about married priests.
I keep hearing about the priest shortage, but I see little the Church is doing the remedy that situation.

In the first major ruling of Pope Benedict's reign, the Catholic Church on Tuesday imposed restrictions on homosexuals becoming priests, saying only men who had overcome "transitory" gay tendencies could be ordained.

The ruling came in a long-awaited eight-page Vatican document that has already sparked controversy after widespread leaks in the past few weeeks.

wired.com

Even if you are not actively gay, you are prohibited from backing gauy causes:

Men showing ``deep-seated homosexual tendencies'' or support for ``gay culture'' cannot be admitted into the Roman Catholic priesthood, according to a document published today by the Congregation for Catholic Education, the Vatican body in charge of running seminaries.

www.bloomberg.com...

www.guardian.co.uk...




posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
The Catholic Church has banned actively-gay men from the priesthood.

Actually, that makes them equal with heterosexuals. ALL sexually active
men are now banned from the priesthood. Why should ACTIVELY gay men
get an exception? They shouldn't. The document that came out says
that the men must have been celebate for at least three years prior
to entering the priesthood. This shows that the men are serious about
their commitment to the celebate priesthood.


being gay and being a pedophile aren't the same thing..

True. It won't stop it. But it certainly will cut down the incidents.
This could help weed out people who aren't serious about being
a celebate priest. I would think that considering the scope of the
scandal ... this would be welcomed.


I keep hearing about the priest shortage, but I see little
the Church is doing the remedy that situation.

The Catholic Church must go back to a Pre-Vatican II way of
educating Catholics. They no longer understand what a priest
is. They have lost their understanding of just how holy a calling
it is. When the Church goes back to educating the people, then
the children will understand exactly what that call is and we will
have more priests.

Watering down the rules and allowing married priests may increase
the number of priests, but it won't educate people as to what a
priest really is. If people understood what the call is .. and WHO
was calling them ... there would be no shortage of priests.

This is an issue of education ...



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 06:45 AM
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Well, Im not sure what to make of this. The Catholic Church has banned actively-gay men from the priesthood.


I thought he was an Anglican Priest and as such nothing the Vatican say is going to change anything there.

As for the rest of it, I agree with Flyersfan.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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The Catholic Church has been corrupt from day one of it's evil existence. The entire concept is anti-christ. Mary worship, saints, popes, confession to a preist instead of god.

Gay priest, non-gay priest makes little difference. It's all pagan idolatry anyway.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
The document that came out says that the men must have been celebate for at least three years prior to entering the priesthood.


Is it true that they're requiring ALL men to be celibate for 3 years before entering the priesthood? I don't see that anywhere. Do you have a quote? This is from the article:



The 21-paragraph paper, which was approved by Pope Benedict XVI, said that potential priests battling with their sexual identity must demonstrate that they have "overcome'' their "tendencies'' at least three years before being ordained as a deacon, a rank just below a priest.


This certainly does seem to be discriminitory to me. But it's a Church. They're legally allowed to discriminate. As for morality, well, thankfully I'm not religious, so I don't have to lower my morals to meet theirs.

The Bloomberg article also seems to imply that if they allow fewer gay priests, they'll have fewer pedophiles, which I personally find revolting and extremely offensive.

From the Bloomberg Article:


Today's condemnation of homosexuality as "intrinsically immoral and contrary to natural law'' comes as the 78-year-old pontiff, head of 1 billion Catholics worldwide, faces criticism for scandals involving pedophile priests in the U.S.


Pedophelia is a psychological disorder, not a sexual preference. Gay does not equal pedophile and vice versa. It's the church's (and blind followers') ignorance and desperation that wish to equate the two. But, again, I don't have to deal with the Catholic Church.

It's my opinion that the only reason that most child-molesting priests dingle with the little boys is because they have more access to little boys. There are plenty of cases where girls were also victims.

Most child molesters, in fact don't care which sex of child they victimize. And child molestation, like rape, is rarely about sex.

In my opinion, the church should concentrate on their obvious criminal element (child molesters) and attack the real problem instead of attacking the gay community, which has absolutely nothing to do with their obvious problems.

But hey... I'm no Pope.


If the Catholic Church wants to discriminate against gay people because they find the state of homosexuality (active or not) a sin, I can understand that. But if they're hoping to weed out the child molesters by preventing gay people from entering the priesthood, they've got a surprise ahead and they're more lame than I originally thought.

Just FYI: Pedophelia vs.Child Molestation

Pedophilia is a psychological disorder that does not require, and usually does not involve, a criminal act. The pedophile might keep his desires a secret. He may never go public or share his fantasies with anyone. At times, they will even marry a single mother to gain or continue access to her children. Pedophiles can be very determined and single-minded in their efforts to stay close to children. Maintaining access to children at all costs is one of the defining trademarks of pedophilia, which will be discussed later.

Child molesters, however, can have many different motivations for their crimes. And those motives, surprisingly, are often not of a sexual origin.


So, pedophilia in the priesthood actually isn't a problem. It's the child molesters, the criminal act of molesting a child that they have to be concerned about.

But it's just easier to kick out the gays and then people (who don't know any better) think it will at least cut down on the molesting, right?
At least the Church is doing something...



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
instead of attacking the gay community

Requiring gay people to behave as heterosexual people and
uphold the celebacy of the priesthood is not attacking gay people
... it's expecting them to follow the celebate rules as heterosexuals
are expected to do.


If the Catholic Church wants to discriminate against gay people
because they find the state of homosexuality (active or not) a sin,


No. The Catholic Church does NOT consider inactive homosexuality a sin.
Just having the homosexual inclination is NOT a sin in the Catholic Church.
What IS considered a sin is acting upon those inclinations and committing
a homosexual act. If a heterosexual married man had adulterous
thoughts he would not be guilty of adultry if he pushed those thoughts
out of his mind and stayed faithful to his wife. The same with homosexual
inclinations and acts.

As for the rest of your questions/response ... I have to go
look up a few things and I'll get back to you.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The Bloomberg article also seems to imply that if they allow
fewer gay priests, they'll have fewer pedophiles, which I
personally find revolting and extremely offensive.


~ 1-2% of men have gay inclinations.
~ 33% of pedophilia crimes are committed by gay men.
Studies vary on this exact figure... but it is MUCH higher
than 1-2%, which it should be if it stayed in correlation
to actual homosexual figures.

Statistically speaking, by reducing the number of active
homosexuals then the pedophile crime numbers should
be reduced. You may find it revolting and extremely
offensive, but the ugly truth is that profiling works.

www.cpiu.us...
www3.telus.net...

See also -
"Child Molestation and the Homosexual Movement,"
published by the Regent University Law Review
Witten by Steven Baldwin, executive director
of the Council for National Policy in Washington, D.C.
– who also chaired the California Assembly's Education committee

Also author - Dr. Judith Reisman, president of the Institute for Media
Education, title - "Kinsey, Crimes & Consequences."

Some facts from Dr. Reisman -

- Homosexuals sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is
occurring from five times greater than the molestation of girls.

- 150.2 boys abused per male homosexual offender finds no equal
(yet) in heterosexual violations of 19.8 girls."

According to the study, "Archives of Sexual Behavior," some 86 percent of
pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.

Now .. if you want to discuss how the heck the Catholic Church could
check up on seeing if these people are actually celebate or not for
three years ... that's a worthy discussion. It looks like they have to
take the person's word for it. Well, if they are a homosexual pedophile,
they certainly are not going to tell the truth on the application to be a
priest.

I'm glad the Catholic Church is taking steps to protect our children.
I'm sure the process will have to be adjusted as time goes on and
as they see which steps work and which ones don't.



[edit on 11/30/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Requiring gay people to behave as heterosexual people and
uphold the celebacy of the priesthood is not attacking gay people
... it's expecting them to follow the celebate rules as heterosexuals
are expected to do.


Then why all the proclamations and so forth? The priesthood has been a celibate position for as long as I've been aware of it.
If they're banning 'actively gay' men, are they also banning 'actively straight' men? I thought sexually active men have always been 'banned' from the priesthood. Why do I feel so confused?


Do heterosexuals have to have 3 years of celebacy before becoming a deacon? Or can they have indiscriminate and promiscuous sex right up to the night before?



The Catholic Church does NOT consider inactive homosexuality a sin.


Thanks for that explanation. So, really, the Catholic Church does kind of see homosexuality and pedophilia as qualtatively the same thing, psychological disorders. As long as either guy doesn't acton his perverse desires, it's cool for him to be a priest...



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The document that came out says that the men must have been celebate for at least three years prior to entering the priesthood.

Is it true that they're requiring ALL men to be celibate for 3 years before entering the priesthood?


All men with homosexual inclinations are supposed to be celibate
for three years prior to entering the priesthood.

As far as heterosexual men go ... these men are not married and
therefore are all supposed to be celibate when they are studying
for the priesthood. When a heterosexual man who is studying
to be a priest 'falls' and has sexual relations, it is up to the superior
of that order to decide if he can continue with his studies, just as it
would be up to the superior of the order to decide if a homosexual
man who 'falls' and has sexual relations can continue. It can take
eight years for the process, depending on which order you go into.

Technically all heterosexual men who are in the process are not
supposed to be having sexual relations during those years. So by
requiring homosexual men not to have relations during those years
it kinda makes it all the same.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
~ 1-2% of men have gay inclinations.
~ 33% of pedophilia crimes are committed by gay men.


Are you serious???

~ 1-2% of men have blonde hair.
~ 33% of pedophilia crimes are committed by blonde-haired men.

reducing the number of blonde-haired men in the preisthood will reduce the number of pedophilia crimes in the priesthood.


33%? That means most "pedophilia crimes" (67%) are committed by straight men! The priesthood should get rid of the straight men!

Besides, I cannot find ANYTHING in either of your links that support the information you stated.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I thought sexually active men have always been 'banned'
from the priesthood.

Yep. Of course, not everyone has followed this rule, but the
answer is yes, the rules do ban any active sexual activity.


... the Catholic Church does kind of see homosexuality and
pedophilia as qualtatively the same thing, psychological disorders. As long
as either guy doesn't acton his perverse desires, it's cool for him to
be a priest...


You can be a homosexual and be a priest.
You can't be an ACTIVE homosexual.
Pedophiles are a different from what I understand.
They are ACTIVE. I don't think you can have inactive
pedophiles. (someone correct me if I'm wrong). A
pedophile is someone who has actually acted on his/her
inclinations. I don't think someone can just have pedophilia
inclinations ... to actually be called a pedophile you have to have
acted. Right?


A person with same sex attraction is allowed to be a priest.
A person with pedophilia isn't.

Of course, some slip through the process, as we all have sadly seen.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 09:19 AM
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Quotes are from the bloomberg link:

The 21-paragraph paper, which was approved by Pope Benedict XVI, said that potential priests battling with their sexual identity must demonstrate that they have ``overcome'' their ``tendencies'' at least three years before being ordained as a deacon, a rank just below a priest.


How does the Church discrimiate between a married man who becomes a deacon and a man who becomes a deaon on his way to the priesthood?


Today's condemnation of homosexuality as ``intrinsically immoral and contrary to natural law'' comes as the 78-year-old pontiff, head of 1 billion Catholics worldwide, faces criticism for scandals involving pedophile priests in the U.S.

The new guidelines, which do not apply to existing clergy, don't specify how would-be priests can prove their homosexuality was a passing phase. ``An adolescent not yet complete'' was cited as an example of a ``transitory problem.''

``Instead of paving the way for witch-hunts and purges of gay seminarians, the church should concentrate on rooting out child sex abusers,'' said Peter Tatchell, a founding member of the British gay rights group OutRage, in a statement today.


I don't see how this new ruling will help weed out pedophiles. I'm sure some gay men are pedophiles, just as some straight men are.
But, not all gay men are pedophiles and I think this is the message that is implied. The Church considers both act unnatural.

Since celibacy has not been a universal rule during the entire history of the Chuirch. it behooves the Church to make a change and allow priests to marry.
For God's sake, we have had Saints who were married. Being married does not mean a person can be less devotional, holy, or vocation-oriented. If anything, it would allow a priest, if he so wishes, to enjoy the blessings of a wedded life--perhaps making him a much better priest.

And, they wonder why people drift from the Church :shk:

[edit on 30-11-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The priesthood should get rid of the straight men!

And have just women priests? hmmmm. You may be
on to something!
Actually, if you want to be
garunteed to have priests who won't 'sin' ... perhaps
we need to look outside of our solar system.

I cannot find ANYTHING in either of your links that support the information you stated.

Journal of Sexual Research has it for sure.
www.sexscience.org...
I'm looking for a link to the 'up to 33 %' ...


[edit on 11/30/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
How does the Church discrimiate between a married man who becomes a
deacon and a man who becomes a deaon on his way to the priesthood?

You just answered your question. A married man who becomes a
deacon stops at the deaconate level. That's as far as he goes,
unless his wife dies, then he can continue to the priesthood.
A deacon can not remarry if his wife dies. He is allowed to be
married only once.


it behooves the Church to make a change and
allow priests to marry.

Being married doesn't change a person's orientation.
Being married won't stop people who are pedophiles.
Being single doesn't cause someone to become gay.
Being single doesn't cause someone to become a pedophile.


we have had Saints who were married.


Married people have a different calling from God than priests do.
Sure, married people can be just as holy, if not holier, than single
priests. But they have two different callings from God.

At one point in scripture people who were single and who wanted
to do 'God's work' were told not to get married because married
people have to split their time between doing God's work and
taking care of the family. Honestly, if I was on my death bed and
in need of final confession and my last rites ... I wouldn't want to
be calling the priest only to find out he couldn't come because
he was at his kid's baseball game or something.

Being a priest is not just a job. It's an entire way of life and it's
a CALLING. It isn't a career. It's much more.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 10:04 AM
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Yeesh! Does no one else see the absurdity of forcing sexual animals to abstain from sex forever, no matter what their sexual preference?

I can't think of anything more likely to drive someone insane or make a person less qualified to be advising anyone about how to live their lives, especially when it come to family relationships and other areas of humanity of which they have limited or no experiance at all.

I believe that the damage these warped men and others like them have done to human society over the years is nearly immeasurable.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Pedophiles are a different from what I understand. They are ACTIVE. I don't think you can have inactive pedophiles. (someone correct me if I'm wrong). A
pedophile is someone who has actually acted on his/her inclinations. I don't think someone can just have pedophilia inclinations ... to actually be called a pedophile you have to have acted. Right?



I know I'm verbose at times, but I kind of wish you'd read my posts when we're haviing such an in-depth discussion. I read all of yours AND check your links. I kind of lose my desire to debate when I feel I'm not being 'heard'. Sorry.


Simply put, Child Molestation (the act) is many times the manifestation of pedophilia (the desire):

From my first post:
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Just FYI: Pedophelia vs.Child Molestation

Pedophilia is a psychological disorder that does not require, and usually does not involve, a criminal act. The pedophile might keep his desires a secret. He may never go public or share his fantasies with anyone. At times, they will even marry a single mother to gain or continue access to her children. Pedophiles can be very determined and single-minded in their efforts to stay close to children. Maintaining access to children at all costs is one of the defining trademarks of pedophilia, which will be discussed later.

Child molesters, however, can have many different motivations for their crimes. And those motives, surprisingly, are often not of a sexual origin.


So, pedophilia in the priesthood actually isn't a problem. It's the child molesters, the criminal act of molesting a child that they have to be concerned about.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Yeesh! Does no one else see the absurdity of forcing sexual animals to abstain from sex forever, no matter what their sexual preference?


Yes, I see it. However, priesthood is a choice. A man chooses to give up his carnal practices (however ill-advised). He is not 'forced' into the priesthood. He goes in knowing what he's in for.

I totally agree with the rest of your post. I think it's insane. A priest is the LAST person I would go to if I needed counseling. Fortunately, being a Catholic is also a choice.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 10:52 AM
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How many knew that there are in fact married Catholic priests?

LINK




Finally, concerning married Episcopalian clergy becoming Catholic priests, "the Holy See has specified that this exception to the rule of celibacy is granted in favor of these individual persons, and should not be understood as implying any change in the Church's conviction of the value of priestly celibacy, which will remain the rule for future candidates for the priesthood from this group." In other words, an ordained Episcopalian minister would make a profession of Faith and be received into the Catholic Church, and thereupon receive the Sacrament of Confirmation. He would then take appropriate courses which would enable him to minister as a Catholic priest.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
I cannot find ANYTHING in either of your links that support the information you stated.

Journal of Sexual Research has it for sure.
www.sexscience.org...
I'm looking for a link to the 'up to 33 %' ...


I don't see anything on that link, either. I'm not going to hunt it down for you. You've stated all kinds of statistics but given no sources to back them up. What gives?

If it's just your opinion that gay man shouldn't be inthe priesthood, that's one thing, but giving all this 'data' as if there's a logical basis to your opinion and throwing out some links that you think might support you is just, well... poop-a-licious.

I'm still waiting for the links you promised, but you just kinda went away... I think I get the message.


[edit on 30-11-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
How does the Church discrimiate between a married man who becomes a
deacon and a man who becomes a deaon on his way to the priesthood?

You just answered your question.

NO, I didn't answer my own question and I know that about the deaconate. But if a man must be celibate to become a deacon, how does that work for married men who become deacons? They have to have separate bedroom from their wives during their studies for three years? :shk:
Or, does the Church have different rules for different people? For example, do straight men have to swear off women for three years?



Being married doesn't change a person's orientation.
Being married won't stop people who are pedophiles.
Being single doesn't cause someone to become gay.
Being single doesn't cause someone to become a pedophile.

You take my comment completely the wrong way.

Allowing priests to marry has nothing to do with what you posted.
Allowing priests to marry, returning to an earlier time on the Church, would allow many married men to acknlowledge their potential vocations.

The Church needs to clean house and get with it. Address the pedophile problem, now.
Catholics need to think for themselves, not just take what the Church says as gospel.



[edit on 30-11-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]



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