Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
[It's called Dereliction of Duty and cops can be charged with it, too. It's called "reasonble standard of care" and "negligence". One of which the government, and thus its organs, owes you and the other is the crime they are charged with when they fail to provide it.

bring that up with the people that left, not nagin

Hello Superdome. "Sorry, that was the last bus to leave. The rest of you will have to take shelter in the Superdome, WHERE I WILL BE JOINING YOU, where we have food, water and medical personnel. Not to mention Family Services..."

Are you reading what I post?

im reading what you post and well apparently your saying the same thing as before, when i answered you the first time.

Hello playbook. Do you know what Forward Planning is? How many days warning do you have when a Hurricane flattens Cuba?

Mayor: "Hmm, what are the possibilities that it might hit us?"

Lackey: "I don't know, boss. Let me call the storm centre."

Mayor: "What are our precautions?"

Lackey: "Let me call the police chief, the fire chief and the CMO and check the playbook and get back to you."

What it appears happened:

Mayor: "Is my private jet fuelled and ready to go?"

you do remember how quickly katrina started up OVER THE GULF right? it wasnt nearly that much of a threat til then.

Why haven't you already got them?

you would if you could transport them to the superdome. if they are already there then you should be asking the person whos in charge of doing that why its not done. is nagin in charge of making sure supplies are at the superdome during something like this? i doubt he had the time to go down there check and come back himself. you cant solely put the blame on him for this plain and simple

So the US has no compulsory requisition policy?

again are you expecting the mayor to go down and break open the stores and start transporting it? nope your expecting the chain of command to work when it didnt. somewhere along the line things fell apart with people who werent doing there job, maybe that includes the mayor, maybe it doesnt. i have a question though, were you down there right before, during, and/or right after the hurricane? if not how can you even be sure what happen?

I realise Americans are fundamentally stupid and ungrateful people, but some of them might be thankful you saved and LOOKED AFTER them.

jamming them into the superdome when the chain of command fell apart leaving you in a severe lack of supplies would make me pretty ungrateful as well. for all you know i might have had a better chance to make it in my home had i been left there. for those that dont have a home obviously evaccuating them would be priority number one. or getting them in the superdome. they should have been the only ones put in there in the first place though. the supplies would have lasted longer as well.

But they weren't relatively safe in their homes, were they?

And, in case you haven't noticed, not all US residents own homes, let alone live in one.

And every evacuation guide tells you what to carry. So you give a list of what people should bring to the Superdome. Like toilet paper, tinned milk, bottled water and biscuits. and a couple of blankets if you can.

Then you have the Fire Departemnt bring in its barbecues and emergency lighting and you lighten the load a little for those sheltering. Provide a few acoustic guitars and soon you'll have choruses of Kum-by-ah distracting the people from the howling winds outside.

If you live in a Hurricane zone why does the city not a have an emergency management department of its own? One whose job it is to co-ordinate this kind of stuff?

All I saw was blame being shifted around after the horse had bolted.

Four people were involved here, everybody, anybody, somebody and nobody.

Everybody was responsible, anybody could have taken responsibility, if somebody had taken responsibility nobody would have had to resign.

But NOBODY took responsibility.

basically like i said it was a failure on many levels, why try to blame one man when its obvious he isnt the only one at fault. where was FEMA with the supplies for after the hurricane which caused the most problems. the actual hurricane wasnt the problem, it was FEMA and their job doing afterward which caused many problems. sending back water which walmart brought i would hardly consider even logical. there are many to blame...but does it really solve anything for you? make you sleep better at night knowing you can point your finger and say "that was his fault"? doesnt help me nor the thousands of other people that are attempting to recover or lost a loved one.

Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
[It's called Dereliction of Duty and cops can be charged with it, too. It's called "reasonble standard of care" and "negligence". One of which the government, and thus its organs, owes you and the other is the crime they are charged with when they fail to provide it.

bring that up with the people that left, not nagin

Nagin is their boss. They work for him.

Are you reading what I post?

im reading what you post and well apparently your saying the same thing as before, when i answered you the first time.

Clearly you aren't answering. Or you could tell me why there was no NO emergency management department. Not to mention all the other things.

I will say it again, and this time try and listen,

"Hello Playbook."

Hello playbook...

Oh, would you look at that!

...Do you know what Forward Planning is? How many days warning do you have when a Hurricane flattens Cuba?

you do remember how quickly katrina started up OVER THE GULF right? it wasnt nearly that much of a threat til then.

Oh, that's okay then. It's unreasonable for the city to go up an alert level the moment a tropical storm forms..."Oh come on, man, this is, like, the fiftieth one this year, do I have to go check out that warehouse again? On Sunday."

Why haven't you already got them?

you would if you could transport them to the superdome. if they are already there then you should be asking the person whos in charge of doing that why its not done. is nagin in charge of making sure supplies are at the superdome during something like this? i doubt he had the time to go down there check and come back himself. you cant solely put the blame on him for this plain and simple

You still haven't given me a compelling reason for why New Orleans, or Tallahassee, Miami, Mobile etc, don't have a warehouse full of palletised loads of supplies such as water, tinned food etc, ready for just such an emergency. Said pallets can be loaded onto trucks by forklift, transported across town and unloaded by forklift into the parking garage, which I assume is under the 'Dome (possibly not the best situation given NO's below-seal level circumstances, I admit), from where city workers can distribute them to the citizens sheltering in the 'Dome. I'm sure the Red Cross would volunteer to help in the distribution, they're nice like that.

If DHL can track my parcels all the way across the world why the hell can't the US Government keep their eye on a few bottles of water?

So the US has no compulsory requisition policy?

again are you expecting the mayor to go down and break open the stores and start transporting it? nope your expecting the chain of command to work when it didnt. somewhere along the line things fell apart with people who werent doing there job, maybe that includes the mayor, maybe it doesnt. i have a question though, were you down there right before, during, and/or right after the hurricane? if not how can you even be sure what happen?

I've lived through bushfires in Australia. I have family who have lived through tropical cyclones. Why don't you check the history of Darwin circa Christmas 1974 for an example of how these things should be managed after the event.

You bet I'm expecting the Chain of Command to work, that is the ONLY thing it gets paid for. If it can't do its job it should resign. In Japan the mayor would have committed Harakiri. Gruesome, but honourable.

Speaking of Japan, why don't you check out their disaster preparedness.

Forward planning enables you to cope, that's what it is for. You haven't given me a single reason that excuses ANYBODY, not just Nagin, for failing to forward plan. Do you know what the word "contingency" means?

I realise Americans are fundamentally stupid and ungrateful people, but some of them might be thankful you saved and LOOKED AFTER them.

jamming them into the superdome when the chain of command fell apart leaving you in a severe lack of supplies would make me pretty ungrateful as well. for all you know i might have had a better chance to make it in my home had i been left there. for those that dont have a home obviously evaccuating them would be priority number one. or getting them in the superdome. they should have been the only ones put in there in the first place though. the supplies would have lasted longer as well.

Had it been properly Forward Planned then nothing would have fallen apart. Which part of this don't you get?

The fault doesn't lay in the week leading up to Katrina, it lies in the years leading up to Katrina.

If you live in a Hurricane zone why does the city not a have an emergency management department of its own? One whose job it is to co-ordinate this kind of stuff?

All I saw was blame being shifted around after the horse had bolted.

Four people were involved here, everybody, anybody, somebody and nobody.

Everybody was responsible, anybody could have taken responsibility, if somebody had taken responsibility nobody would have had to resign.

But NOBODY took responsibility.

basically like i said it was a failure on many levels, why try to blame one man when its obvious he isnt the only one at fault. where was FEMA

At no point do I excuse FEMA, Brown or Bush. Go read my earlier posts. But they are not the "point" people on this. Nagin is.

You still can't answer this:

Why didn't New Orleans have a comprehensive and drilled Hurricane plan?

Why didn't Louisiana have a comprehensive and drilled Hurricane plan?

Why didn't FEMA (and therefore the US Government) have a comprehensive and drilled Hurricane plan?

The greatest factor in the "digital divide" is not money or internet access, it is illiteracy, a problem that is rampant in New Orleans because the public school system in worthless.

[edit on 2005/12/6 by GradyPhilpott]

thats the whole thing though, no one was really prepared or saying this is a high alert. nobody cared enough till it was too late. i didnt see bush yelling immediate evaccuation.

its not his job, sure, but hes president so he should have at least cared.

FEMA is incompentent and totally undependable when it comes to gettings supplies to people. this is where alot of the real problems came in, the lack of action after the hurricane, rather then during it. its more then just nagins fault for the aftermath of the hurricane where i feel the most problems occured.

why did FEMA turn away walmart truck donating water?

Hey man, what's your problem? Nagin is a fine man, and he has been doing his best to try and bring back this city from the satrt. He was here through the entire thing, stuck it out thick and thin. I feel like he is one of the only politicians who actually cares about us. Meaning, Nagin may be a politician, but he also has a heart.

He cares about us and this city, and all he wants to do is make it better, your going to demonize him for that? This is a GOOD thing for this city, it will help us get back on our feet. Not only is it an opportunity for the city, but this kind of thing could do great things for the nation and even the world, IMHO.

Please, the man has enough trouble already, all he wants to do is help us, the last thing he or any of us need is someone calling him an idiot for the things he is trying to do.



--Kit.

[edit] I might add, if you want to flame someone for the state of this city, flame the people who are sitting on their arses doing nothing, don't flame the men and women who are out here doing their darndest to try and help us.

[edit on 6/12/2005 by Kitsunegari]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The greatest factor in the "digital divide" is not money or internet access, it is illiteracy, a problem that is rampant in New Orleans because the public school system in worthless.

[edit on 2005/12/6 by GradyPhilpott]

Embrasse mon tcheue

I'm not sure what you want me to kiss, but I'm pretty certain that insults in any language are forbidden.

I wholeheartedly agree Grady, the public schools here are worthless. Though I can't say much better of the catholic schools.

Schools in general here are worthless.

--Kit.

Do you live in Orleans Parish? Are you in the area now? What is your assessment of the recovery situation? I've only talked to a couple of people, but it seems pretty grim.

[edit on 2005/12/6 by GradyPhilpott]

Howlrunner,

Please understand that it was not until late in the afternoon on Friday before Katrina's path had changed and was heading towards the city. The storm came in during the early morning of Monday. How do you get millions of people out of danger? Even if school buses were used, the traffic was a nightmare. Nagin was BEGGING people to leave but, unfortunately they either didn't have the money or transportation or family to help them or they just didn't believe it was really coming. A storm of this magnitude has never occured in NO. Betsy was a Cat 3 and there was still extreme flooding.

Regarding the food - while the stores were not opened the police were not stopping people from taking essentials. When FEMA and REd Cross did finally show up, we had food, water and ice.

I have lived in southern Louisiana my entire life and have never experienced anything remotely like this. When the lights went out, I figured we would have power in a day or two. It was 13 days and I was one of the lucky ones. A friend was without power for 5 weeks!

This country, state, city was not prepared for this storm. I don't understand why FEMA wasn't waiting in Texas to drive in as soon as the storm was gone. It was truly a frightening experience.

And I agree with the other writer who seems to be from NO (sorry, I forgot your name), Nagin did the best he could do and at least he stayed and was on the radio along with other officials giving updates.

Also remember our communications were completely down and unfortunately, some of the stories reported as fact were rumors.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Why didn't New Orleans have a comprehensive and drilled Hurricane plan?

Why didn't Louisiana have a comprehensive and drilled Hurricane plan?

Why didn't FEMA (and therefore the US Government) have a comprehensive and drilled Hurricane plan?

I lived in New Orleans for twenty-two years. There are plans in place for storms, but mostly, people are encouraged to store supplies, board up and get out. I rode out every storm in all those years, usually in very sound, multi-storied buildings.

The truth is that Katrina was worse than Betsy and Camille combined and since it has been nearly forty years since a really bad storm hit New Orleans, I think a lot of people were in denial about how bad it could be. All the worst case scenarios I ever heard had the hurricane coming up the river like threading a needle, which I guess sounded pretty unlikely. In this case, the worst case scenario was much less bizarre.

As someone pointed out, there was a major effort to get everyone out in time, but there was not enough time, enough vehicles, or enough highway to get it done. This does not take into account all those people like me who lived in New Orleans and did not own a car and could not or would not leave.

All the failures that occurred, in my humble judgement, were human failings in the face of an overwhelming natural disaster. Couple that with the national media broadcasting to the world that New Orleans had dodged a bullet when in fact the city was under water. Of course, they were oblivious. They were all in the French Quarter and had no idea where the 9th Ward is or even what it is. Add to that the destruction of the communication infrastructure and it makes for utter chaos.

Of course, things could have been better. Nagin could've been Superman. Kathleen Blanco could have been Wonder Woman and Michael Brown, Batman, but that's not the population we draw elected and appointed officials from.

Katrina really was the storm that was never supposed to happen, but it happened to a "city that care forgot."

Grady pretty much hit it on the head. This was just a no one was expecting to ever really happen.

There wasnt enough time, but if you guys think there was write a timeline of it down and see if its possible. i doubt it would be given the number of people that were there, number of busses, and time given. if you beg to differ, prove it.

this storm was more then anyone person could handle, so is it right to put the blame on any one person?

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Grady pretty much hit it on the head. This was just a no one was expecting to ever really happen.

Why the bloody hell not? New Orleans is on the Gulf Coast. That's hurricane territory. Plus it's below sea-level, that's automatic worst-case-scenario by itself. Automatically you should be twice as prepared for disaster as the rest of the coast.

Fatal bushfires on the scale of Ash Wednesday have only ever happened once, on Ash Wednesday, but the various Fire services were prepared for them, there were mistakes, firefighters died, people panicked and died, towns were overwhelmed, but people were expecting the fires to happen...firefighters were driving their appliances for twelve hours to join the fight. The scale of it overwhelmed everybody, but they didn't shut down under stress, they kept working. That doesn't appear to have happened in NO, and if it did, then who the hell is running Nagin's media relations? 'Cause he should be lookin' for a new job.

this storm was more then anyone person could handle, so is it right to put the blame on any one person?

Your system of government makes a single man responsible, but I've said before and I'm saying it again, I'm not putting the blame on any one single person.

And I don't believe this storm was more than any one person could handle.

It's hardly of a similar scale and a relatively poor analogy, but Rudi Juliani had no warning, his disaster management HQ was destroyed and he managed his town's crisis no problem.

You say Ray was there, the whole time, on the radio etc, well why the hell wasn't that being highlighted? If he was, then he was severely let down by his people. Why wasn't he on a direct line to the President the morning after Katrina passed and every morning after that giving a sit-rep?

The fact is, Katrina was a systemic failure, and that is unforgivable.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

Originally posted by Lady Lily
Howlrunner,

Please understand that it was not until late in the afternoon on Friday before Katrina's path had changed and was heading towards the city. The storm came in during the early morning of Monday. How do you get millions of people out of danger? Even if school buses were used, the traffic was a nightmare.

Alright, this is a small, but specific issue and it directly relates to my criticisms.

Millions of people got themselves out of danger, they owned cars. No problem.

My criticism is of the thousands left behind. Those too stupid to leave (I'm being harsh, I know, but I can also acknowledge that Grady's continued survival through the years points to staying not being a wholly moronic decision) are not immediately my problem. They become my problem the morning after the hurricane has passed.

The other thousands, the homeless, those too poor to own a car, those whose friends had no room in their cars, those whose extended families could not help. Those are the people I say should have been bussed.

As for traffic. Hobart is a city of 1/4 million and to relieve its congestion its lanes reverse during peak-hour. That means that on a 4-lane road, during morning peak-hour 3 lanes go into the city and during evening peak-hour 3 lanes go out. During the rest of the day it's 2 lanes each way.

So, why weren't both sides of the highways being used for outbound traffic? I've seen one photo (e-mailed to me, so I'm not sure of it's accuracy) of traffic appearing to be following the "right-hand side of the road" law. Why? You've just halved the volume you can move.

Originally posted by Mizar

Nagin used to be CEO of COXcommunications which is the major providor of cable, brodband internet and telephone services in then south/ louisiana.

DING! DING! DING! And we have a winner for "What's this really all about?"

The fact is that there's no such thing as "free" wireless internet access. There is, however, government subsidized wireless internet access.

Nagin just set up a deal to funnel a goodly sum of money from government coffers to whichever internet supplier wins the contract.

I'm sure he'll be looking for employment fairly soon, so it'll be good for him to be owed a few favors...

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The fact is, Katrina was a systemic failure, and that is unforgivable.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

I dont know what you saw from down in Australia but I personally was not horrified by the scale of damage or some such but by the way the situation went straight to hell after the storm had passed.
People looting, breaking windows, attacking each other, armed mobs etc was what was most shocking!
Also the fact that the dead were not tendered to nor did anybody care about the next person, their was no Mr homeboy- Nagin telling people what to do nothing. In effect Katrina wasnt a disaster in destruction but a disaster in leadership.
Prepared or not, the city would have been flooded anyway and you can tstop that kind of destructive power no matter what. What you can do is to make the process easier by rising up to the occasion and sticking together, helping each other. That needs a leader, there was no leader for the people there, nagin was too busy telling the media - "someone needs to get their a$$ on the plane....." If you cant help yourself nobody can help you.
Homeboy-Nagin should have become the leader they looked for, he wasnt, he had become the whinning schoolboy that was a liability. Complaining to the camera is useless, what he should have done was gain order and control the mobs instead he let it go straight to hell .
I feel that was the most depressing thing about the Katrina disaster, the way people were left without hope.

Comparing Australia to the US is rather foolish I would think, Austraila which is so thinly populated would not suffer even half the damage with something twice as powerful as Katrina. If a cities like canberra, sydney etc were to face a force 5 typhoon with the same kind of local leadership in the same time frame, I think you would find the same situation there.
What happened in NYC was that their leader rose to the occasion and in NO that just didnt happen. That makes all the difference. Granted the scale was different but still it is the attitude that matters.

How much power do you think this guy has? if i recall hes the mayor of NO not the governer of LA. She should have been the one making the real organization considering the scale of this hurricane. Not just for NO but everywhere, and she should have excepted the government help which she didnt want to. Nagin cant send in the national guard i dont think. he can say "we need the national guard" but ultimately its not his decision.

also it was a failure on many levels, not just one. everyone is equally at blame, stop looking for a scapegoat already.

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The fact is, Katrina was a systemic failure, and that is unforgivable.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

I dont know what you saw from down in Australia but I personally was not horrified by the scale of damage or some such but by the way the situation went straight to hell after the storm had passed.
People looting, breaking windows, attacking each other, armed mobs etc was what was most shocking!
Also the fact that the dead were not tendered to nor did anybody care about the next person, their was no Mr homeboy- Nagin telling people what to do nothing. In effect Katrina wasnt a disaster in destruction but a disaster in leadership.

Which is a systemic failure, a failure of the system...

Comparing Australia to the US is rather foolish I would think, Austraila which is so thinly populated would not suffer even half the damage with something twice as powerful as Katrina. If a cities like canberra, sydney etc were to face a force 5 typhoon with the same kind of local leadership in the same time frame, I think you would find the same situation there.
What happened in NYC was that their leader rose to the occasion and in NO that just didnt happen. That makes all the difference. Granted the scale was different but still it is the attitude that matters.

Google Canberra Bushfires...

And find out what the population concentration of Sydney/Newcastle/Wollongong is...There's nothing thin on the ground about it, that's for sure...

My point, and my only real point here, is that New Orleans wasn't prepared. That's criminal. Sydney is prepared for bushfires, Canberra, Melbourne, Adelaide...They are prepared, at the beginning of summer people's minds turn on the little part that says "fire danger warning". We even get those on the tv and radio every night for the next day.

As for Rudi vs Ray: Rudi came out of it looking like he'd never stepped in anything unpleasant...Nagin came out of it appearing to be looking for someone to blame. Now, those who were there say Nagin was doing his job, well then he needs a new press officer, 'cause I couldn't see it.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
also it was a failure on many levels, not just one. everyone is equally at blame, stop looking for a scapegoat already.

What do you mean many levels?
Once the Fedral govt came in with the food and the troops that is when things began to stabilise and slowly improve. If it hadnt been for the Federal Govt, their would still be mobs of armed men looting NO because Nagin cant control them and the Governor of Louisiana was too busy wonderstruck to be able to do anything.
Its easy to say, everybody is to blame when everybody knows that only one person is to really blame. Their is no place for diplomacy in a disaster.