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Do Jews go to heaven?

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posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 06:17 PM
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judaisms gods are the talmud, the kabbalah, and racial self-worship. judeo-christianity is an oxymoron. before christ there was the faith of the israelites as it gradually decayed and was subverted by corrupt teachings as were transmitted by the pharisees and sadducees.

this corruption was greatly escalated when a portion of the israelites rejected the messiah, after which their leaders made their way to babylon, where the corrupt oral occult 'tradition of the elders' was committed to writing and compiled as the mishnah, comprising the first portion of the talmud. it was here that judaism was born.

it is the talmud, not the bible, which is the system of orthodox judaism.

judaism was not viewed as the repository of the spiritual truths or knowledge of the old testament, but as a post-biblical, babylonian cult totally at variance with biblical christianity.

[edit on 29-11-2005 by Nagell]




posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 10:39 PM
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it is through the talmud with it's anti-gentile law and jurisprudence that jewish supremacists have justified the suffering they impose on the palestinian people. the talmud specifically defines all who are not jews as non-human animals.

some examples:

* sanhedrin 58b- if a gentile hits a jew, the gentile must be killed.

* sanhedrin 57a- a jew need not pay a gentile the wages owed him for work.

* baba kamma 37b- "if an ox of an israelite gores an ox of a canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a canaanite gores an ox of an israelite... the payment is to be in full."

* baba mezia 24a- if a jew finds an object lost by a gentile it does not have to be returned (further affirmed in baba kamma 113b).

* sanhedrin 57a- when a jew murders a gentile there will be no death penalty. what a jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

* baba kamma 113a- jews may use lies("subterfuges") to circumvent a gentile.

* yebamoth 98a- all gentile children are animals.

* abodah zarah 36b- gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

*kiddushin 66c- "the best of gentiles -- kill him; the best of snakes -- smash its skull; the best of women -- is filled with witchcraft.



posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 11:46 PM
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Don't you just love it when Christians claim the KJB is the literal word of God, then twist and shape the Word to fit their shallow version so that they can insure their place in heaven.

Good luck!!



posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa
Don't you just love it when Christians claim the KJB is the literal word of God, then twist and shape the Word to fit their shallow version so that they can insure their place in heaven.

Good luck!!


Wow...That was a very vague statement about a group with no supporting evidence...Who's using the KJB, first off, who's twisting the Word to fit their shallow version (?) to put themselves into heaven? Was this specifically addressing something on this thread, or was it a general bash against some Christians somewhere in the world who do this, made in such a way as to imply it was someone here on this thread?

[edit on 11-30-2005 by junglejake]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Could anyone - absolutely anyone at all show a verse in the Greek NT where it says that people need faith in Jesus Christ to be granted salvation.

It simply isn't there.





John 14:6: legei autw Ihsouv, Egw eimi h odov kai h alhqeia kai h zwh; oudeiv erxetai prov ton patera ei mh di' emou.

url


Which means:

Iesous/ Jesus said. I am the way and the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me/ except through me.

Where is faith mentioned?

Is it means faith, why isn't the word 'pisti' - belief/faith used?

No trick questions here..

I just want you to question your assumptions.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 11:39 AM
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Hi Simon,
You didn't respond to my post, so I'll quote myself from page 2.



Originally posted by just me 2

John 3:16 (in Greek)
Outwv gar hgaphsen (5656) o qeov ton kosmon, wste ton uion ton monogenh edwken, (5656) ina pav o pisteuwn (5723) eiv auton mh apolhtai (5643) all' exh (5725) zwhn aiwnion.

(Thanks for the link JJ!)



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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John 3:16 ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

^KJV is pretty much spot on.

For those who like to assume things;

There is nothing in this verse that says those that do not believe will not receive everlasting life, is there? As long as you actually read what it says.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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2 Thessalonians1:8-10 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."



John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Look them up in your greek Bible and you should have something comparable.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by just me 2
2 Thessalonians1:8-10

John 3:18

Look them up in your greek Bible and you should have something comparable.


2 Thessalonians 1:8-10

εν πυρι φλογος διδοντος εκδικησιν τοις μη ειδοσιν θεον και τοις μη υπακουουσιν τω ευαγγελιω του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου

οιτινες δικην τισουσιν ολεθρον αιωνιον απο προσωπου του κυριου και απο της δοξης της ισχυος αυτου

οταν ελθη ενδοξασθηναι εν τοις αγιοις αυτου και θαυμασθηναι εν πασιν τοις πιστευουσιν οτι επιστευθη το μαρτυριον ημων εφ υμας εν τη ημερα εκεινη

The word translated as everlasting is once again 'aionion', the word for punishment is 'tisousin', which is better translated as penalty.

The word 'aionion' stems from the Greek word 'aiona/aiones' or century/centuries - 'aionion' simply means for centuries to come and is still used in the same context today. To translate is as everlasting (an immeasureable amount of time) is innaccurate.

John 3:18

ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο δε μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου

The word translated as condemn(ed) is 'kekritai' which is more accurately translated as to sentence or to pass judgement.

There is still nothing that links lack of faith in Jesus to eternity in hell.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 05:29 PM
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The word translated as everlasting is once again 'aionion', the word for punishment is 'tisousin', which is better translated as penalty.


The word 'aionion' stems from the Greek word 'aiona/aiones' or century/centuries - 'aionion' simply means for centuries to come and is still used in the same context today. To translate is as everlasting (an immeasureable amount of time) is innaccurate.


There is still nothing that links lack of faith in Jesus to eternity in hell.


I got this from www.studylight.org. (regarding the word "everlasting" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9)

aiÎwñniov
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

www.studylight.org...§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=John%25203%3A18&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=3&ncc=3< br />
mod edit: fixing link


[edit on 1-12-2005 by parrhesia]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 06:02 PM
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Your source is inaccurate. 'Aionion' is never used in that context, it means an unknowable amount of time, yet it is a finite and measurable amount of time. Countable in other words. I say this as someone whose mother tongue is Greek, I talk Greek at home and have been taught Ancient Greek since I first attended Primary school. There's no guesswork involved, the Greek word for 'forever/ an eternity' is 'panta' and that is the word that would have been used if God had wanted to imply that punishment was 'everlasting' or 'forever'.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Your source is inaccurate.


Can you back that with a link to a legitimate lexicon as just me 2 did? We could go back and forth saying, "no, you're wrong and I'm right because I say so," but that's not going to further the conversation very much. What makes Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary inaccurate and your source accurate?

Also, I would say John 3:16 is pretty clear in saying faith is required, unless you think faith and belief are two totally seporate things.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:01 PM
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junglejake is absolutely correct. The eternal covenant God made with Abraham did not have a provision that negated it due to Christ fulfilling a role for the world. The covenant God made with Abraham was unconditional on the large picture (i.e. toward the Jews), and depended only on the faithfulness of the individual within the Jewish people.

The covenant God made with Abraham was unconditional to the "people" who are Jews, and it has not been withdrawn, negated, retracted or subjugated in any manner due to Christianity.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:09 PM
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if that is the case, and the jews do have a Herrenvolk status (ironic that). why did jesus bother to preach at all? the israelites had degenerated to a point where a new covenant had to be made and it stated; "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by Nagell
if that is the case, and the jews do have a Herrenvolk status (ironic that). why did jesus bother to preach at all? the israelites had degenerated to a point where a new covenant had to be made and it stated; "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."


No man will come unto the Father except through him. There's no contradiction here, there's just a lack to see the fullness and greatness of God. God is large enough to reconcile all. The everlasting covenant made between God and the Israelites via Abraham will hold. And it will be reconciled when the Messiah comes. You just haven't thought it through yet.

We don't have to understand how God does things. We only have to understand He can....and He will....and it will be marvelous.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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And p.s., you answered your own question. The everlasting covenant was with the Israelites only. Christ came for the rest of the world.

That's why he bothered preaching.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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Exactly Val, you hit the nail on the head.

What is so hard for people to understand on this one. Any religion that excludes others from salvation has a fatal flaw. It's like you missed the whole point.

This one isn't that hard to see.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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Where does John 3:16 say faith is required? Where does it say belief is required? Does it say those without belief or faith will face everlasting punishment?

No, it doesn't.

@ junglejake

1 Timothy 2:3-6

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.




Does this passage mean what it says? If it does, then how can anyone face everlasting punishment? If it doesn't mean what it says, then why does it say it?

What about;

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



??

For some reason 'aionion' is translated innaccurately in all Ancient Greek translation tools I've found. I'm Greek, I use the word on a daily basis - there's no confusion here.

If someone told you the word 'bitch' meant female dog - they could easily find justification for this view in a dictionary, however you would know as someone who speaks English, that the word 'bitch' is used in another, often derogatory context as well.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:42 PM
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Here's my first question to you...


Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

1 Timothy 2:3-6

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Why did you only bold the part that supported your argument? Let's bold the rest of the thought so that we don't take text out of context and make a pretext...

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Seems that he (Christ) did this because it was acceptable in the sight of God, from which any salvation to anyone must come, and that it was done that ALL would be saved AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.

I think there's a dependency there. One that you really have to unbold in order to neglect. All CAN be saved, if they come unto the knowledge of the truth!



For some reason 'aionion' is translated innaccurately in all Ancient Greek translation tools I've found. I'm Greek, I use the word on a daily basis - there's no confusion here.

If someone told you the word 'bitch' meant female dog - they could easily find justification for this view in a dictionary, however you would know as someone who speaks English, that the word 'bitch' is used in another, often derogatory context as well.


Point taken! The word you use on a daily basis - with the meaning you apply on a daily basis - is not the female dog that you admit all Ancient Greek tools you have found are discussing...now isn't that just as logical as your argument? At one point in English, bitch never meant anything but a female dog.

hmmmm



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 07:51 PM
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yes, the israelites. judaism is not the religeon of the old testament. the new covenant was for all.

by terming the old testament religion of yahwehism as 'judaism' an inevitable and inexorable connection is established between the religion of those who rejected jesus as the messiah, and the old testament religion of his father, yahweh.

with this we are given the distinct impression that modern judaism bears within it the seeds of the religion of the old testament, that it is the old testament religion without christ.

this is a grave lexical and hermeneutic error.

judaism was a man-made tradition that flourished among one segment of the offspring of the fourth son of the patriach jacob(the tribe of judah).

'jew' is a corrupted form of judah. it is a reference to 2 of the 12 tribes of israel, judah and benjamin. it does not even appear in the bible until II kings 16:6 and then again in 25:25 and II chronicles 32:18.

paul's allusion to the jews in this context is instructive: "And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers" (galations 1:14)

the hallmarks of the "Jews' religion" according to paul, are two-fold: persecution of god's church (I thessalonians 2:14-16), and allegiance to the "traditions" of men.

the pharisees asked jesus why his followers disobeyed the talmud (then known as the 'tradition of the elders' and not yet in written form), by refusing to engage in 'ritual' hand-washing: "Why do the disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread."
"But Jesus said unto them, 'Why do ye transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" (Matthew 15:2-3)

how can judaism be the root of christianity, when according to paul, it is a religion of man-made traditions and according to jesus, judaisms traditions of men made the law of yahweh of "none effect"?


[edit on 30-11-2005 by Nagell]



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