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Why Then, Keep Secrets?

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posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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Put on you best thinking cap for "outside the box" brand thinking.

In your eyes, what would have to occur in order for you to know the truth and keep it from the rest of humanity?

What scenario (s) would justify (in your view) the suppression of any information concerning UFO/Aliens?

In my view, such secrets being justified, are only justified by a handfull of scenarios. Among them:

1) Assuming time travel is possible
2) Assuming that some sentient beings (possibly humans) survive/endure to achieve the capability of time travel.

If time travel is possible and the human race endures/survives to the day we acheive such technology, then we are currently enduring the reprocussions of influences from the future.

If time travel is possible and anyone else (celestrial neighbors) obtain or have obtained the capability to achieve time travel, then we are currently enduring the reprocussions of the influences of others, others whose technology is vastly superior to our own.

Before you totally debunk this concept within your own mind, take a look at what history makes perfectly good sense to you:
5,200 B.C. Mankind is using beasts of burden to get from point A to point B.

7,200+ years later .. ... .. . ..

1901 A.D. Mankind is still using beasts of burden and horse drawn carriages to get from point A to point B.

1902 A.D. Mankind begins mass production of the Ford Model-T.

67 years later . .. . . .

1969 A.D. Mankind is walking on the moon.

Ya. Makes perfectly good sense to me, too.

In either case, it could be validated if anyone (at least one) has prophesized a future event in a past tense context. Has this happened?

So:

Try to think a little outside of the box here, and use a state of mind that transends "Self Preservation", "Self Preserve", (Self Before Serve).

What scenarios would you think justify the suppression of information concerning UFOs or Aliens / Alien technology?




[edit on 28-11-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]




posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 03:40 PM
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Good topic.

I think that your time travel scenario is just as plausible as extraterrestrials, though I think that the progression being made is natural. The extraterrestrial scenario is another one that would be kept secret. Why? Because of the technology involved. Governments would want to keep other countries from finding out what they know or what they don't know. I think some of the information is "leaked out" on purpose, but is made up to deceive the other side. Regardless, I think the government knows more than they let on. This may be against your request to go beyond self-preservation, but self-preservation is the driving force behind the way people think, so it has to be part of the equation.



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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If the US (or any other) government were to say to the world... "hey, we are being visited by extraterrestrials that are flying about our skies and doing who-knows what without our consent, and theres not a damn thing we can do about it."
The ignorant masses would panic and there would be mass disorder, I think.


Also, what if the aliens basically told the leaders that are aware of their existance to keep quiet and to quiet everything about them, or else...

[edit on 28-11-2005 by Unplugged]



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by Unplugged
Also, what if the aliens basically told the leaders that are aware of their existance to keep quiet and to quiet everything about them, or else...
[edit on 28-11-2005 by Unplugged]


If thats the case then if it was revealed to the majority of humanity after getting over the shock they would try and unite against ET.
Then the Aliens would probably have to blast us off the face of earth. From a human aspect the loss of money from lack of wars between countries and whatever would be billions, maybe trillions. There's a finacial aspect too.



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 04:23 PM
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I have a variety of scenarios I've worked on in support of such theories. Strictly from a fictional point of view of course as that allows for free creative thinking. In regards to aliens, one key reason would be the destabilization of religious/spiritual foundations accross the globe. The reasons are many but I'll isolate one. One key concern would arise if aliens held no religious beliefs or favored a religion that ran counter to mankinds. Worse if aliens projected distant involvement/interference with any part of mans evolution on Earth.

There are people on this forum who are convinced that Aliens are fallen angels. If the information above was made public and governments were known to have supressed such information, the results of such actions would be devestating.



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 05:04 PM
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I think that your time travel scenario is just as plausible as extraterrestrials, though I think that the progression being made is natural.

Exactly, but compared to what? (Referring to "Natural Progression") There is no other bases for comparison, is there?


Regardless, I think the government knows more than they let on.

I think they are letting on, but most people are oblivious to it. The human mind must abide by the law of association when confronted with new stimuli through our senses. All science fact, was first science fiction, until proven true in the eyes of observers. I also believe they do not have the capability to silence the truth, nor the means in which the truth is being dispursed amongst the inhabitants of Earth.


This may be against your request to go beyond self-preservation, but self-preservation is the driving force behind the way people think, so it has to be part of the equation.


We are assuming that visitors from other worlds (during any time) will have the same genetic disposition as we do: The "Prime Directive" of "Self Before I Serve", aka "Self Preservation".

[edit on 28-11-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by nullster
In regards to aliens, one key reason would be the destabilization of religious/spiritual foundations accross the globe. The reasons are many but I'll isolate one. One key concern would arise if aliens held no religious beliefs or favored a religion that ran counter to mankinds. Worse if aliens projected distant involvement/interference with any part of mans evolution on Earth.


If interference with mankind was what resulted in religion, then why make it so easy to both prove and disprove the existance of God?

God does exist:
Everything humanity has learned about the human brain tells us that due to the way the human brain operates (law of association,etc.) the human mind was never capable of developing such an abstract and intangible concept of a perfect entity such as GOD. Our ponderance of death and our fear of the unknown were simply insufficient to serve as such a catalyst to activate the human brain into doing what it does not do.

Conclusion: God must exist, or the concept itself was introduced to man from an external source.

God does NOT exist:

1) One of the purported definitions of Atheist is: One who does not subscribe to the belief in a higher being, nor acknowledges the possibility of any higher power.

2) Most monotheistic beliefs (Jewish, Christianity) tell us there is no God, other than God, and God's first commandment itself tells us God is it. so, under the definition (1 accepted definition) of Atheist, then God is an Atheist.

3) If the purpose of Christianity (or other monotheistic faiths) is to convert atheists into Christians who believe Christ was/is God, and the term "Christian" itself means to be like Christ. Therefore:

Conclusion: Atheists are being converted into Christians who believe Christ is God, and are striving to be more like Christ, and Christ was God, therefore Christianity is converting atheists into people who are trying to be atheists. And, there God simply does not exist, at least not how they perceive God.

But, then going back to the possibility of a time travelled altered reality, how could one send a message back in time safely encoding it, and delivering a message at the same time?

Something said of the Ark of the Covenant was: "Any army that has it cannot be defeated".

I'm not sure this necessarily describes a weapon. Think about what current warfare focusses on. Lines of Communication is one of the first targets of any successful campaign.

What if the Ark of the Covenant was simply a time travel device large enough to send only information. Then if an army was outflanked in the original battle, they could just send a message back in time to themselves, and know they would be outflanked. Of course, only 1 person at a time would ever know what it could really do, or else what good would it do?

There are reports (I assume biblical) that Moses told his brother Aaron that the first 5 books were encoded by God, and must be preserved.

So, what if the first 5 books are the lock, but also the key to the very lock that it is?

For instance: "In the beginning there was the word"

meaning: Language

For instance: "The meek will inherit the Earth"

meaning: Lower Case Letters.

For instance: "Everthing in Satan's dominion is opposite of the Kingdom of Heaven." and "Humanity is currently under Satan's Dominion"

meaning: Reverse reading and writing from left to right to right to left.

For instance: "Blessed are the children"

meaning: phoenetics are more important than correct spelling

For instance: "Alpha and Omega"

meaning: A & O interchangeable?

Then you may be able to look at syllables and see something different:

Let's look at the Great Pyramid (One of humanitys' greatest Enigmas)

Who is acredited with its construction?

Kufru and Cheops?

Kuf ru Cheops

Kuf = (Hopefully you can figure this one out, but F#@K will suffice)
ru = ur, or your
Cheops = Spoech, or Speach.

We would end up with the original builders of the Great Pyramid being acredited to:

F#@K YOUR SPEACH.

Which would coincide nicely with the Tower of Babyl story, if it were in Babyl, that is.

Just some random ramblings. I wouldn't say I concretely believe this, but it is an example of how the bible could be the code for showing us what is in the bible that is coded. As well as other things . .. . ..... perhaps.



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If interference with mankind was what resulted in religion, then why make it so easy to both prove and disprove the existance of God?


God in most religions (Specificaly Christianity) is not infered as an interference with man. God is the reason for everythings existance or as it is put the creator of "Heaven and Earth". Few if any religious faithful would accept the notion aliens and not God were the source or development of creation. The mere suggestion would be an affront to many religions all over the world, specificaly Christianity. Try lobbing that idea in the Bible Belt and see what returns.

For the reasons/descriptions I've already stated, any "Beings" that would hold a contrarian religious belief or no belief at all would be reason for governments or whomever involved to keep the info from getting out. Again I'll point out that there are those that would already point to aliens as "fallen angels" looking to lure the religious faithful away from their church.



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher


I think that your time travel scenario is just as plausible as extraterrestrials, though I think that the progression being made is natural.

Exactly, but compared to what? (Referring to "Natural Progression") There is no other bases for comparison, is there?

No, but we look at how technology evolved. More specifically, look at the progression of science. It started out slow because it took a long time for knowledge to spread. Humans actually had higher achievements in Greek times than the Middle Ages. But with poor documentation, that knowledge was lost. The Church was suppressing science during the Middle Ages, which is another reason knowledge did not spread. It was the invention of the printing press that changed it all. Knowledge started spreading, thus technology increased. We soon realized that the technologically advanced countries are the ones that win wars; so then advanced technology became a matter of survival. Now with the Internet, knowledge will increase exponentially from where we are today. So I would not attribute any leaps in technology to outside help. There is a logical explanation for it.





Regardless, I think the government knows more than they let on.

I think they are letting on, but most people are oblivious to it. The human mind must abide by the law of association when confronted with new stimuli through our senses. All science fact, was first science fiction, until proven true in the eyes of observers. I also believe they do not have the capability to silence the truth, nor the means in which the truth is being dispursed amongst the inhabitants of Earth.

Are you referring to the government keeping secrets, or the visitors keeping secrets? I took for granted you meant the government. Again if you’re referring to outside help, I personally don't think they are. If they are helping us, they are not doing a very good job of it.





This may be against your request to go beyond self-preservation, but self-preservation is the driving force behind the way people think, so it has to be part of the equation.


We are assuming that visitors from other worlds (during any time) will have the same genetic disposition as we do: The "Prime Directive" of "Self Before I Serve", aka "Self Preservation".

I would expect that any race would have come into being under similar circumstances, therefore having the same basic instincts. The only other way that a race would exist is to come from beings like us in the form of genetically engineered or artificial intelligence. Then they would not be bound by these instincts.

But if they weren't, then why are they so elusive? If they were helping us, why not be more direct? I think they stay away because they are afraid of us and do not interact unless they are in complete control. That is a sign that they do have the same basic instincts of fear and survival.

The prime directive theory doesn't wash with me either. If they are not supposed to interact with us, then why do they come and appear in the sky, yet stay out of reach? They do interfere with us, just by their presence and some say abduct people.

The only other reason I can think of is that they are curious, but know the consequences of direct interaction. It may be because of biological reasons, or social disorder. I don't agree that there would be a break down of religion either. Every day there are catastrophes that could be avoided if there was a God, but they still happen and it is times like that that people turn to religion and believe even more.

I think that when we do learn the truth it could be something entirely different, but until we know, all we can do is speculate.



posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 10:32 AM
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Conjecture and Speculation, Conjecture and Speculation.

Of course we are not discussing absolutes, just a dialogue to try and explain what circumstances would have to occur, what scenarios would have to occur to explain and justify the actions and behaviors of both Earth's intelligence agencies, governments and those who operate UFOs (assuming they are not humans from our time).


Originally posted by Hal9000

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher


I think that your time travel scenario is just as plausible as extraterrestrials, though I think that the progression being made is natural.

Exactly, but compared to what? (Referring to "Natural Progression") There is no other bases for comparison, is there?

No, but we look at how technology evolved. More specifically, look at the progression of science. ........... So I would not attribute any leaps in technology to outside help. There is a logical explanation for it.



Regardless, I think the government knows more than they let on.




Are you referring to the government keeping secrets, or the visitors keeping secrets? I took for granted you meant the government. Again if you’re referring to outside help, I personally don't think they are. If they are helping us, they are not doing a very good job of it.


I'm referring to the government and the unspecified entities (if not human). It is just as easy to state they are not doing a very good job, as it is to state they are doing a very good job. Whose to know how much their interactions and direct/indirect actions and behaviors have helped or hurt us?




I would expect that any race would have come into being under similar circumstances, therefore having the same basic instincts. The only other way that a race would exist is to come from beings like us in the form of genetically engineered or artificial intelligence. Then they would not be bound by these instincts.

But, humans have shown total disregard for their personal well being at times where it did not benefit them at all, but they put themselves in harms way, and demonstrated a reverence for other life over their own. So, does this mean that the human race may be genetically engineered or a bio-engeneered artificial intelligence? (Not being sarcastic, just presenting a rhetorical question, I don't require, nor expect an answer to this last question). But a good question it is! So, what is it in us that gives us this duality? One part of us saying "Self Preserve", the other that causes us to disregard that genetic command that exists at the cellular level?


But if they weren't, then why are they so elusive? If they were helping us, why not be more direct?


I think they have been more direct than people are ready to admit is even possible. Since people have a tendency to compartmentalize information, perhaps they don't have the capacity yet to clump it all together and see it all as having no degree of seperation, whatsoever.


I think they stay away because they are afraid of us and do not interact unless they are in complete control. That is a sign that they do have the same basic instincts of fear and survival.


With reports of UFOs going back before written language, their structured idea of control may be different than we can percieve. Hard to believe any human would spend literally thousands of years observing and interacting with strange being on another world, so what would compell other beings to do the same?

Another alternative answer to your questions is they do have as much control as they can have, within the confines of the laws. both our laws and possibly the laws of physics and constraints placed upon them by time travel, and those who give them the authority to be here in the first place.


The prime directive theory doesn't wash with me either. If they are not supposed to interact with us, then why do they come and appear in the sky, yet stay out of reach? They do interfere with us, just by their presence and some say abduct people.


Abduct is a harsh word with negative conotations. No one who has related such stories were truly "Abducted", because they were returned. Therefore they were merely borrowed. And they have claimed "We have every right to do this", as reported by one such "Abductee". Scratch that. Instead of "Abductee" we should call them "Borrowee". Anyone care to second this motion, then we can vote. .....


The only other reason I can think of is that they are curious, but know the consequences of direct interaction. It may be because of biological reasons, or social disorder. I don't agree that there would be a break down of religion either.


"Be not afraid" is what the angels of old said. I'm pretty sure organized religion and the spiritual beliefs of the overwhelming majority of people on this planet will have to adapt to new facts, which may test their doctrines to the limits. If their interactions with us have been since say ...... about 40,000 B.C., Then many people may want to know what was going on prior to the beginning of our own written history around 5,000 B.C.


Every day there are catastrophes that could be avoided if there was a God, but they still happen and it is times like that that people turn to religion and believe even more.


And everyday there are catastrophes that have been avoided and their effects negated. And these deeds go unnoticed, and unrecognized by the vast majority.


I think that when we do learn the truth it could be something entirely different, but until we know, all we can do is speculate.


Conjecture and Speculation, Conjecture and Speculation.

Of course we are not discussing absolutes, just a dialogue to try and explain what circumstances would have to occur, what scenarios would have to occur to explain and justify the actions and behaviors of both Earth's intelligence agencies, governments and those who operate UFOs (assuming they are not humans from our time).



posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I'm referring to the government and the unspecified entities (if not human). It is just as easy to state they are not doing a very good job, as it is to state they are doing a very good job. Whose to know how much their interactions and direct/indirect actions and behaviors have helped or hurt us?

What I meant is that if "they" wanted to help, they could offer direction if they wanted. For example: the "Day the Earth Stood Still" scenario, where they come down and tell us we are destroying ourselves. We still have wars, we still have starving populations, and we still have disease. So if they are providing help, it isn't working. Personally, I don't want their help. I think we need to solve these problems on our own. If we don't, then we don't deserve to survive. I know it sounds harsh, but it is how natural selection works.

I can think of one way "they" may have been detrimental. I think some of the miracles that occurred and are written in the Bible may have been actual encounters. These miracles give people faith, and this IMHO is a distraction from advancement.



But, humans have shown total disregard for their personal well being at times where it did not benefit them at all, but they put themselves in harms way, and demonstrated a reverence for other life over their own. So, does this mean that the human race may be genetically engineered or a bio-engeneered artificial intelligence?

I would classify these acts as survival. Someone is trying to save someone else from certain death. For example: a parent saving a child is instinctive so to perpetuate the race.



Abduct is a harsh word with negative conotations. No one who has related such stories were truly "Abducted", because they were returned. Therefore they were merely borrowed. And they have claimed "We have every right to do this", as reported by one such "Abductee". Scratch that. Instead of "Abductee" we should call them "Borrowee". Anyone care to second this motion, then we can vote. .....

That is true. Anyone that is truly abducted, would never come back to tell the tale. Some refer to it as visitations.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by Hal9000

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I'm referring to the government and the unspecified entities (if not human). It is just as easy to state they are not doing a very good job, as it is to state they are doing a very good job. Whose to know how much their interactions and direct/indirect actions and behaviors have helped or hurt us?

What I meant is that if "they" wanted to help, they could offer direction if they wanted. For example: the "Day the Earth Stood Still" scenario, where they come down and tell us we are destroying ourselves.


Exactly what we are talking about. What scenarios justify their lack of doing so?

What could be the reasoning for them not just coming down and saying blatently to all that :"We are here because .. . .. . . "?

What is it that prevents them from presenting themselves?
Us? Our rules? Them? Their rules? Other forces? Nature?

Why wouldn't they . . .....?



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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The secret that many are hiding is tht they cannot live without some sort of conspiracy. So they create one surrounding the government and aliens/ufos. They then persist with this theory dispite a lack information to cooborate any such claims.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by Frosty
The secret that many are hiding is tht they cannot live without some sort of conspiracy. So they create one surrounding the government and aliens/ufos. They then persist with this theory dispite a lack information to cooborate any such claims.


And yet, the last dozen presidents of America have addressed this very issue (aliens/UFOs) .. ...... .

What was their purpose for doing so?
What was their intentions?
What was their motivation?



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by Frosty
The secret that many are hiding is tht they cannot live without some sort of conspiracy. So they create one surrounding the government and aliens/ufos. They then persist with this theory dispite a lack information to cooborate any such claims.


There is not a lack of information , only a lack of absolute undeniable proof. Information that corroborates these claims is present in large quantities. For instance the U.S. Air Forces own Blue Book and France's GEPAN/SEPRA projects were government investigations into the UFO Phenomena.





>What I meant is that if "they" wanted to help, they could offer direction if they wanted. For example: the "Day the Earth Stood Still" scenario, where they come down and tell us we are destroying ourselves. <



Exactly what we are talking about. What scenarios justify their lack of doing so?


Why do you need to justify inaction?

Almost any scenarios that don't include coming down and telling us anything would suffice I would imagine.





[edit on 30-11-2005 by lost_shaman]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by nullster
Few if any religious faithful would accept the notion aliens and not God were the source or development of creation. The mere suggestion would be an affront to many religions all over the world, specificaly Christianity. Try lobbing that idea in the Bible Belt and see what returns.


Perhaps their reluctance to even entertain the concept is what hinders humanity as a whole from knowing the truth.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by lost_shaman

Why do you need to justify inaction?


What inaction? Their actions and behaviors demonstrate their intentions, if one can ascertain the reasoning behind the actions & inactions, then speculation may not be necessary.



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 10:00 PM
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Esoteric Teacher I agree , but all we can say is they don't talk to us publicly.

Did they talk to the U.S. officials in the 50's ? I don't know , I've never seen conclusive evidence .

I have doubts about abductee accounts.

So I can only say that as far as I know they play tag with Planes and follow people around in the Rain Forest and startle unsuspecting people like me here in North Texas.

Edit: Well that is not all I can say about them , but communication wise they seem to posses the ability to make themselves available to do that should they choose to do so. It is the fact that communication seems to be low on the list of priorities for UFOs for whatever reason at least as the Public is concerned.

Unless you consider formations of UFOs forming in full view of the Shuttle Cameras a form of public communication? Or Phoenix Lights maybe? There are several events such as UFOs over D.C. '52 that are questionable.


[edit on 30-11-2005 by lost_shaman]



posted on Nov, 30 2005 @ 10:10 PM
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To keep people from panicking? Or keeping religion alive maybe. Keeping people from evolving?

Money and War is my guess. I have thought that some of the conspiracy was more money and for advanced technology.

Maybe to preserve the aliens from the people. So people wouldn't shoot them or hurt them. People might not be able to excpet that aliens created everything and they are God. Again for religion beliefs.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist06
To keep people from panicking? Or keeping religion alive maybe. Keeping people from evolving?


Excersizing authority to have a say so in how humanity evolves?


Money and War is my guess. I have thought that some of the conspiracy was more money and for advanced technology.


You sparked a thought in my head. Which question will provide us a more useful answer:

Who are they? or . . .. .. . .
What are their intentions?




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