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NEWS: Venezuela And Spain Sign Controversial Arms Deal

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posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
Chavez is almost as popular as Che Guevera in large segments of the Rural population.

A tyrant can capture the people by brute force or by lavish gifts. The most powerful ones have been the ones that gave the public the most gifts.

Now that chavez has the wild support of the masses, he moves to secure militant dominance. No surprise. And under the guise of a internal 'war' for the public benefit.




posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by namehere
bh, no, EVERY communist government is repressive, the "but its not true communism" excuse is just that, an excuse, history proves it is indeed repressive.


Venuzuela isn't communist. Chazez was elected with 59% of the vote. They have free markets etc. I suggest those crying communist ought to get themselves out of the black and white world of US politics.



posted by zappafan1
Propaganda?.... probably not; more likely the feelings of the 41% (probably more) that didn't vote for him. Actually, he does kind of look like he's had a peni* in his mouth... or was it a cigar?


So in venuzuela, where someone wins 59% of the vote, it's ok to say he isn't democratic as 41% opposed him?

then, I ask, what about any other "Democratic" country? Blair got just over 35%(of those that bothered to vote), Bush got just slightly over 50% (of those that voted)....How does that compare?

I find it funny that some US citizens here (and elsewhere) seem to get some sort of perverse pleasure from screaming COMMUNIST!!!! from the rooftops and interfering in other countries affairs.

The guy is doing good within Venuzuela (I haven't heard of anything bad, unless you count redistribution of oil wealth to the poor as bad) and was democratically elected, which was verified by many international organisations, inlcuding the Carter Centre, as a free and fair election.

I ask this. USA, what is your problem? And crying about "socialism" isn't going to cut it.

[edit on 29/11/05 by stumason]


............................................
Mr. Chavez is a vocal supporter of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and other revolutionaries, and has encouraged the Iraqi insurgency. U.S. intelligence estimates there are now 15,000 Cuban officials in Venezuela.

The arms deal with Russia does not call only for AK-47s. Russia will also supply MiG-29 fighters and attack helicopters. Additionally, U.S. intelligence believes the AK-47 buy may eventually reach 300,000 rifles.

The sources say they fear the Russian-provided AK-47s will be used to arm what may become little more than street gangs assigned the task of enforcing loyalty to Mr. Chavez.

"He's consolidating a dictatorship," said a senior U.S. official. "It's a Cuban-style dictatorship. He's arming loyalists and setting them lose to intimidate people at the city block level."
................................................

OK.... lets just say Chavez is Marxist/Socialist, both of which mean redistribution of wealth, which nevers works because it limits personal freedom, which IS a bad thing.

OK... gasoline is only 16 cents in Venuzuela... but the "poor people" still can't afford it. Why are they poor, because Socialism never works.
Oh yeah.. you can certainly trust the Carter Center... NOT! Jimmy Carter, the man who gave the world a nuclear North Korea (with a little of Clintons help).

[edit on 1-12-2005 by zappafan1]



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 05:41 PM
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Mr. Chavez is a vocal supporter of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and other revolutionaries, and has encouraged the Iraqi insurgency. U.S. intelligence estimates there are now 15,000 Cuban officials in Venezuela.


So? Your point is what exactly?



The arms deal with Russia does not call only for AK-47s. Russia will also supply MiG-29 fighters and attack helicopters. Additionally, U.S. intelligence believes the AK-47 buy may eventually reach 300,000 rifles.


Venezuela, just like the US, the UK or even Andorra has the right to self defence and to buy their weapons off whoever they so choose. That is none of the US, or anyone else's business quite frankly.



The sources say they fear the Russian-provided AK-47s will be used to arm what may become little more than street gangs assigned the task of enforcing loyalty to Mr. Chavez.


That "source" is speculative and opinionated. What he (or she, as the "source" is never provided) calls "street gangs" is a reasonably well disciplined and trained Civil Defence forces.

BBC




But retired General Alberto Muller, a military analyst who is close to Chavez government officials, says Venezuela's new reserve is similar to the US's own Army Reserve and civilian forces in many nations.

"The ideal would be like Switzerland, where every citizen has his weapon in his home," Mr Muller says.


Also, it is an internal Venezuelan matter, nothing to do with the US at all.



OK.... lets just say Chavez is Marxist/Socialist, both of which mean redistribution of wealth, which nevers works because it limits personal freedom, which IS a bad thing.


Really? The UK is socialist, in fact Labour was founded on communist ideals. Vut how it is implemented can vary wildly as can the results. In Venezuela, there are some very good initiatives aimed at boosting personal wealth, responsibility and lifting the country out of it's poverty.

BBC




OK... gasoline is only 16 cents in Venuzuela... but the "poor people" still can't afford it. Why are they poor, because Socialism never works.


Hmmm, very fuzzy logic you have there. venezuela, up until Chavez came to power in 1998, was run by a very small elite who concentrated the vast majority of the countries Oil and mineral welath into their own pockets.

Now, under policies introduced by Chavez, the people are being given the opportunity to make money for themselves and they, for the first time ever in many cases, have far more opportunities than ever before.

It is because of this that the "opposition" (read former Oligarchs and their lackies backed by US money) keeps putting out lies and disinfo about Venezuela. If Chavez was such a dictator, would he allow the opposition to run their own Radio and TV stations? No.... but he does.



Oh yeah.. you can certainly trust the Carter Center... NOT! Jimmy Carter, the man who gave the world a nuclear North Korea (with a little of Clintons help).


Hmm, well, that quote kind of illustrates your political leanings and shows no amount of proof to the contrary will change your mind...

"Yee-haw! We gone done blown up Bagh-Dad, now lets go blown up them commies in Vene-watcha-ma call it.....Yee-haw!"

Indeed.....



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
Really? How did you come to this conclusion? The Venezuelans I've been talking too paint a far different picture of public sentiment down there(which is also why they are up here as they are Businessmen and Capitolists aren't that popular in S. America atm), Chavez is almost as popular as Che Guevera in large segments of the Rural population.

[edit on 28-11-2005 by sardion2000]

Well, i guess you are talking to those that are with Chavez, i work in the oilfield business as a field engineer, and when we go to training we get people from all over the world, i have met several people from Venezuela.

Once we decided to play a joke on a fellow engineer from Venezuela, she was back in her country and we sent her an instant message telling her that our president, Bush, could kick Chavez's butt, she got all paranoid telling us to stop saying that on that channel, that they could be under surveillance.... i guess it is one of the tricks that Chavez learned from castro, because castro does the same thing.

Everyone of the engineers, or specialists, I talked to from Venezuela tell me that at first, it is true that most people voted for him, but the rest of the elections were probably rigged. Actually, there is one person that i know who is pro-communist...pro-Chavez...and he happens to be one of my bosses.....

He knows my stand on the issue, but it is company policy not to talk about politics, to avoid conflicts. We have had some fights between people, as for example when a DD (Directional Driller) was chocking the life out of an MWD (Measurement While Drilling ) engineer, because of differences in political affiliations. The MWD engineer wasn't me though.


BTW....Che Guevara was an assassin bastard.... He was put in a pedestal, as a martyr, by the "revolutionaries"...it was done for the cause....but he was still an assassin bastard....

When castro needed someone killed Che Guevara would do it. No matter who it was.

Che Guevara was known to get the entire family of castro's opponents, and he would shoot the men in the head in front of the family, he wouldn't care if the kids were watching, in fact he made them see it as an statement. That's no exageration, but that's not something that the "revolutionaries" would like people to know about that bastard of Che Guevara, or about the other bastards that they like to put in pedestals and proclaim they fight for the people....

If you want to find out who Che Guevara really was, go to Miami, Florida and ask any Cuban/Americans that are living there.


BTW, going back to the topic, I think that the member who said this was done to control the people of Venezuela is right.

One of the latest moves by Chavez was to hire 1 million of his supporters and put them in the military, his next step will probably be to fire the old military personel, so he can avoid any possible overthrow of his regime. This was another trick that castro taught him.

[edit on 2-12-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by stumason



Mr. Chavez is a vocal supporter of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and other revolutionaries, and has encouraged the Iraqi insurgency. U.S. intelligence estimates there are now 15,000 Cuban officials in Venezuela.


So? Your point is what exactly?
Reply: watch what happens over the next few years, and you'll see.



The arms deal with Russia does not call only for AK-47s. Russia will also supply MiG-29 fighters and attack helicopters. Additionally, U.S. intelligence believes the AK-47 buy may eventually reach 300,000 rifles.


Venezuela, just like the US, the UK or even Andorra has the right to self defence and to buy their weapons off whoever they so choose. That is none of the US, or anyone else's business quite frankly.
Reply: Quite true. However, what he does with those weapons is our business, and that of many other countries as well.



The sources say they fear the Russian-provided AK-47s will be used to arm what may become little more than street gangs assigned the task of enforcing loyalty to Mr. Chavez.


That "source" is speculative and opinionated. What he (or she, as the "source" is never provided) calls "street gangs" is a reasonably well disciplined and trained Civil Defence forces.

BBC

Reply: No, they are there to prevent those who would upset Chavez's apple cart.




But retired General Alberto Muller, a military analyst who is close to Chavez government officials, says Venezuela's new reserve is similar to the US's own Army Reserve and civilian forces in many nations.

"The ideal would be like Switzerland, where every citizen has his weapon in his home," Mr Muller says.


Also, it is an internal Venezuelan matter, nothing to do with the US at all.
Reply: It will, and others as well.





OK.... lets just say Chavez is Marxist/Socialist, both of which mean redistribution of wealth, which nevers works because it limits personal freedom, which IS a bad thing.


Really? The UK is socialist, in fact Labour was founded on communist ideals. Vut how it is implemented can vary wildly as can the results. In Venezuela, there are some very good initiatives aimed at boosting personal wealth, responsibility and lifting the country out of it's poverty.

BBC
Reply: Read Maudibs post, above. Also, "government" cannot lift people out of poverty; It's an idea that has failed here, and most everywhere else. only people, themselves, can do that. But it requires freedom to do so. It is the efforts and production of "the people" that lifts a country out of poverty, but that only happens whae the people gain from the wealth that was produced.




OK... gasoline is only 16 cents in Venuzuela... but the "poor people" still can't afford it. Why are they poor, because Socialism never works.


Hmmm, very fuzzy logic you have there. venezuela, up until Chavez came to power in 1998, was run by a very small elite who concentrated the vast majority of the countries Oil and mineral welath into their own pockets.
Reply: And the same will happen under Chavez.

Now, under policies introduced by Chavez, the people are being given the opportunity to make money for themselves and they, for the first time ever in many cases, have far more opportunities than ever before.
Reply: Not enough.

It is because of this that the "opposition" (read former Oligarchs and their lackies backed by US money) keeps putting out lies and disinfo about Venezuela. If Chavez was such a dictator, would he allow the opposition to run their own Radio and TV stations? No.... but he does.
reply: The output from those media outlets remains to be seen.



Oh yeah.. you can certainly trust the Carter Center... NOT! Jimmy Carter, the man who gave the world a nuclear North Korea (with a little of Clintons help).


Hmm, well, that quote kind of illustrates your political leanings and shows no amount of proof to the contrary will change your mind...
Reply:I can prove the quote above. I'm right smack dab in "the center". It is the left who abhore the facts.

"Yee-haw! We gone done blown up Bagh-Dad, now lets go blown up them commies in Vene-watcha-ma call it.....Yee-haw!"
Reply: That inane comment indicates no research on the accomplishments.

Indeed.....



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