On page 196: "Almost everything that was known about the Wenceslas Mine had been handed down from Sporrenberg"

Bear this in mind when we take in anything Witkowski has to say. If he cannot offer up hard evidence of what Sporrenberg wrote/said, then it's all hearsay.

Or, let him come up with better evidence on the ground at the site.

fred

Originally posted by bank teller
So like, if the main testing was done down the bowels of a now flooded mine shaft, how do we know it was done down the mine shaft since it's all flooded?

Did I miss something or what? Where is it written in anyone's book or report that someone knows for sure it was done deep underground? And, when did those shafts get all filled up? Right after the war? It's too murky for me to make sense of.....so far....I don't think even Witkowski went into a flooded mine shaft.....

In the book, The Hunt For Zero Point, it says that the bell was in tested underground in a mine shaft, which is now flooded.

The Wenceslas Mine, where the Bell ended up, had
been requisitioned by the S S as part of a neighboring underground
weapons complex, code-named Riese—"Giant."

Riese, only part-completed by the end of the war, was an attempt to
transform an entire mountain into an underground weapons production
center. The many tens of kilometers of galleries that had been tunneled
by the end of the war had been clawed from the rock by inmates drafted
in from the nearby concentration camp of Gross-Rosen. Modern
excavations of Riese show that the S S had been attempting to link it to the
Wenceslas mine via a tunnel almost ten kilometers long.

Page 188 - The Hunt for Zero Point

The chamber in which the experiments took place was situated in a
gallery deep belowground. It had a floor area of approximately 30 square
meters and its walls were covered with ceramic tiles with an overlay of
thick rubber matting. After approximately ten tests, the room was dismantled
and its component parts destroyed. Only the Bell itself was
preserved. The rubber mats were replaced every two to three experiments
and were disposed of in a special furnace.

Page 192

After the war, when the Russians eventually made it into these hills, they would have found an abandoned complex given over to some quasi-military purpose, a mine shaft that had been flooded, possibly deliberately, and little more.

Page 197

____________________________________________________________

Originally posted by bank teller
On page 196: "Almost everything that was known about the Wenceslas Mine had been handed down from Sporrenberg"

Bear this in mind when we take in anything Witkowski has to say. If he cannot offer up hard evidence of what Sporrenberg wrote/said, then it's all hearsay.

Ahem and ? The whole book is hearsay What's your point exactly ? We are talking about what is written in the book, which is what I'm adressing.

[edit on 29-12-2005 by mad scientist]

You said it so clearly. Without hard proof/evidence, then that section of Cook's book is speculation. Same for Witkowski. Listen, I want to believe lots of things but I know the difference between belief and adequate proof of a real event or thing. There might be a mountain of circumstantial evidence pointing to all kinds of things and we are constantly led to make conclusions that are based on the same height of assumptions. I would prefer to not assume anything. What I know for a fact is this: my friend Gerold went to the site. He took readings and good photos. I know of someone who was born in the adjacent village. These things I know for sure. I do not know for sure what Cook and Witkowski say happened. They themselves are not sure but they hint and assert that these things probably happened. I don't think they have supplied adequate documentation to prove their case. When they do I'll be the first to jump on their bandwagon. I promise.

Fred

What I am saying is the ' Henge ' structure wasn't the main theme in the story of the Bell, it was the mine. So, even if the Henge was or wasn't the base of the cooling tower isn't any proof that it didn't exist. that was only the theory of the Polish guy.
All teh other information supposedly came from that SS General captured by the NKVD.
Now if someone could actually descend into the shaft, that should prove either way, if the story of the Bell has any truth.

Originally posted by mad scientist
What I am saying is the ' Henge ' structure wasn't the main theme in the story of the Bell, it was the mine. So, even if the Henge was or wasn't the base of the cooling tower isn't any proof that it didn't exist. that was only the theory of the Polish guy.
All teh other information supposedly came from that SS General captured by the NKVD.
Now if someone could actually descend into the shaft, that should prove either way, if the story of the Bell has any truth.

Tim Ventura's web site report stresses the Bell over the mine by about 10,000%. Cook's book (it's at home....) talks about the mine but again repeats alot of speculation about the Henge. Witkowski points out the so-called ceramic tiles which Cook claims he showed him. When my friend Gerold was on the site this past summer there was not even a small trace of ceramic tiles. So, what gives?

Yes, if someone could penetrate the flooded areas to some degree then we'd all know much more. But, I suspect that it is very dangerous to think of doing and is probably quite illegal by the Polish authorities. There are, as I have said, many, many kilometers of tunnels in the mountains of that part of Poland that all have sealed entrances. These were either dynomited by the escaping SS men or were blown up by the newly arrived Russians. When Stalinist Russia took control of Poland they put such a fear into people that if they asked the wrong questions even about the German war efforts, they would disappear in the middle of the night and reappear in Siberia. So, people just froze in fear and asked no questions. It is only after the fall of the Soviet reality that Poles have dared ask or start talking about what happened during the war.

I was surprised to read that the Wenceslas mine site had slave labor. That seems to be in conflict with other info I've heard, but I could be wrong about that.

All in all, more research is needed before we can speak clearly about the Henge and all the other underground facilities.

Cheers.

fred

Hi all,

I'm new here -- in fact, I joined specifically to post on this topic, which I find fascinating.

Last night, my wife and I watched a documentary hosted by Nick Cook, entitled iirc "An Alien History Of Planet Earth." It was, apparently, produced by and broadcast on BBC3 last year, under a different title. Although I haven't read Cook's book, I surmise that the program was essentially a TV adaptation of his printed work.

Anyway, I wanted to raise a few points that might be of interest to everyone here, based on my viewing of last night's program.

- Someone asked whether Cook had actually visited the Wenceslas site. In fact, the first half hour of the program had quite a bit of footage of Cook and Witkowski at the site. This includes a segment where Witkowski shows Cook the "Fly Trap" apparatus and where Cook actually climbs down into the conduit through which, Cook postulates, power lines ran from the generating plant to the "Nazi Bell" experimental facility deep underground.

In addition, Witkowski takes Cook and his film crew into the Wenceslas Mine. One scene shows Witkowski and Cook in a flat-bottomed boat, paddling through flooded tunnels "several kilometers" from the mine entrance! Although it is obvious that the tunnels had, indeed, been part of something more than just a coal mine, none of the shots show anything that suggests just what sort of facility (e.g. manufacturing, reasearch, etc.) might have existed on the site.

Personally, btw, I don't think you could have paid me enough to wander (by boat!) that far into the Wenceslas site. As Witkowski tells Cook, the Nazis had blasted the tunnels leading even deeper into the mountain, either destroying or permanently entombing the facilities (and perhaps the people manning them) within. He does not, however, explain why he considers the remaining tunnels safe enough to venture so far within.

Even more disturbing, at least to me, is the possibility that the Wenceslas site is contaminated with nuclear and/or chemical waste. Even if the tunnels concealed "just" a Nazi weapons-assembly complex, it seems safe to assume the presence of toxic chemicals -- and probably lots of them. I guess the fact that Witkowski's paddle didn't dissolve in the flooded tunnel was good enough for him to forge ahead :-)

- Regarding the "cooling tower" issue: During the program, Cook shows a WWII Allied reconnaissance photo of the structure in question. It was, apparently, Allied intelligence officers who dubbed the structure the "fly trap" upon viewing the photos. Fwiw, the photo doesn't show a steam plume rising from the structure, which of course is something one would expect to see above an active cooling tower -- although it would not be surprising if the Germans did not operate the power plant during the day, for precisely this reason.

Perhaps more interesting is the fact that Allied intelligence officers found the structure noteworthy enough to give it the "fly trap" monicker. Would a cooling tower have rated so much attention, especially since the facility's power plant is also clearly visible, some distance away from it? In any case, it seems to me that a third-party, expert analysis of this photo would settle the matter, especially given the digital photo-enhancement methods that are now available.

- Someone already noted this, but I think it's important enough to reiterate: Neither Cook nor Witkowski allege that the above-ground structure contained the "Nazi bell" device itself. The conduit leading from the power plant, however, turns deep underground not far from the structure; as a result, Cook suggests that *something* requiring a lot of electricity was going on directly below. Of course, Cook's conjectures continue a long, long way past this point, to say the least...

If anyone who saw the program thinks I'm misrepresenting or missing anything, btw, I would welcome corrections/comments to my take on it. Thanks!

Originally posted by Count
but I don't find it at all surprising that an published author/researcher doesn't have time to answer all emails which demand proof or evidence. It could be that I'm reading too much from that single sentence, and (obviously) I'm one who "wants to believe"

I'll get back to this after I get off from work.

Re: the Nazi Bell / Tesla Device, the book Brotherhood of the Bell provided all the evidence, such as it was, within the book as well as the companion "Black Sun" tome. If the author ignored a request for evidence it could easily be due to his initial reaction of "did you actually read my damn book even?"

I got the similar situation years ago when I wrote a controversial book on Ancient Rome and then had two years worth of people, mostly cornfield university academics, posting straw man arguments and demanding proof of my assertions... all of which documentary proof was in my book.

Could be the same thing rather than a damning silence, just a damn' silence.

maybe it was of that size for cooling properties and water was wired through the high power system to keep it cool?

Fred Houpt aka Bank teller wrote:

What Gerold was able to do is contact Witkowski many times by email and Witkowski confirmed that only he saw the supposed documents in Polish archives and due to the situation at hand in the days that he saw them he was unable to get photocopies of them. So, for now he has no hard evidence other than his testimony.

You need to remember that whilst we in the west had photocopiers in every library and every office in 1998, Poland was a country impoverished by communism and struggling to catch up with modern office technology.

The 'bell' does not exist now and might not have ever existed. What does exist at that site in southern Poland is decaying buildings, a strange Henge structure that once held something, underground tunnels and paths in the forest that are largely grown over. Much of what went on there is not fully known to this day.

Wrong again Bank Teller. Sporrenberg's trial was not the only testimony to the Bell. Aside from Sporrenberg was the report of SS Haupt Schuster kept in a western archive at Berlin Document Centre.

There was the postwar testimony of Dr Voss to Tom Agoston and the Argentine intelligence reports only declassified in 1993.

Now another source has turned up in the recollections of Greg Rowe from 1960-62 of a Peenemunde scientist Otto Cerny.

Cerny did give an account of a structure which sounded like the henge structure. He said a bunch of powerful magnets surrounded the Bell like a circle of stones on a hoop like device.

What a cooling tower was doing where the Henge now sits is maybe not so hard to imagine because the area is littered with industrial buildings in various degrees of decay. We know that the area had all kinds of above and below ground manufacturing and so there was a strong need for electricity.

What manufacturing ?
We know the area had all kinds of manufacturing ?
If you know Bank teller then please advise us, because it was the eentrance to a coal mine. There was no manufacturing there.

Gerold does not make a claim that he cannot support. He just drew the logical conclusions that any one of us would have made.

Really ?
Then Gerold should have no difficulty supporting his claim should he ?
I look forward to Gerold advising us what the alleged manufacturing was there ?

Dragnrider I can tell you what the disc like object with a stream of gas coming off it downwards was. It wasn't a UFO.

It was a close up of the single plate fuel mixer nozzle for the EMW type 39a rocket engine on a V-2/A-4.

During WW2 Peenemunde scientists developed a an 18 nozzle type 39 spray head for the engine's combustion chamber. Thiel and Schilling both struggled to perfect this nozzle head.