I'm at work now so I can't check the books, but wasn't "the bell" the actual apparatus which was tested, and not the henge-like structure?

ie. even if the henge is shown to be a cooling tower base, that in itself doesn't mean that the bell experiment itself didn't exist. So it wouldn't be correct to say that "Nazi Bell" is debunked. Or am I picking nits?

Based on a quick read of the article linked above, it seems that the main 'beef' of the author is to show that others who have used Cook/Witkowski research have been too quick to state their theories as established facts etc. and not to say that the whole theory presented by C and W is false.

In my opinion having evidence of a power station located can be taken as proof that something requiring lots of power was done at the site, and the nature of it is still unknown to us.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the statement made by Gerold Schelm (the author of the article) that he had contacted Mr. Witkowski but "he was unable to produce any evidence so far". I couldn't find any information about the author with a quick Google search which wasn't in some way related to the article, so I don't know what his qualifications would be - but I don't find it at all surprising that an published author/researcher doesn't have time to answer all emails which demand proof or evidence. It could be that I'm reading too much from that single sentence, and (obviously) I'm one who "wants to believe"

I'll get back to this after I get off from work.

Very interesting find. The article does, in my opinion, clearly point out that the 'Henge' is a cooling tower base, and not an apparatus used to support the nazi bell.

According the author of this article, Nick Cook made claims such as the bolts on top of the Henge being used to suspend the Nazi Bell when it deffinately appears that they were actually used to support the cooling tower.

However, I guess the argument could be made that the Nazis needed some kind of structure to support the 'Bell' and that the base of a cooling tower fit the bill.

Just because something is typically used for a specific purpose, does not mean it is always used for that purpose. I mean, who hasn't used a butter knife as a flat head screw driver when in a pinch

But, I think that the author of the article debunked Nick Cooks claims about the Henge being used to support the Nazi Bell (but it doesn't necessarily mean the Nazi Bell never existed).

EDIT: Spelling

[edit on 11/28/2005 by DCFusion]

the main reason i went with the " nazi bell debunked " tagline was 1 to get attention , and 2 to highlight the fact that the prime " evidence " for the " bell " was the anomylous ` henge ` .

to paraphrase C&W " we dont know what the henge is ................. so it must be evidence of some experiment for which there is no other evidence "

the cooling toower theory shows just how little research C&W seem to have done

and while i am kicking cook - has he not heard of cites , idexes , foot notes or ANY of the common tricks good authors use to help us objectivly read thier books ???

The 'bell' does not exist now and might not have ever existed. What does exist at that site in southern Poland is decaying buildings, a strange Henge structure that once held something, underground tunnels and paths in the forest that are largely grown over. Much of what went on there is not fully known to this day.

Yes, one of Gerold's main points is that people accept as "fact" almost anything that is put into print in either books or internet sites. This is then repeated by other authors who are even more lazy in their attitudes towards what is "real". And on and on and before you know it, Google has thousands of hits that repeat a complete fabrication. That's a point that should be taken seriously.

What Gerold was able to do is contact Witkowski many times by email and Witkowski confirmed that only he saw the supposed documents in Polish archives and due to the situation at hand in the days that he saw them he was unable to get photocopies of them. So, for now he has no hard evidence other than his testimony. That's a hell of a stretch for us to accept as "fact". We expect that Witkowski, a self published author to come up with his evidence and so far for the Henge, he has provided nothing more than talk. In fact he might have seen something but until the rest of us get our hands on the documents his claims get downgraded as merely claims and not facts. The situation on the ground in Poland does NOT support Witkowski's claims.

regards,

Fred Houpt

Originally posted by Count
I'm at work now so I can't check the books, but wasn't "the bell" the actual apparatus which was tested, and not the henge-like structure?

ie. even if the henge is shown to be a cooling tower base, that in itself doesn't mean that the bell experiment itself didn't exist. So it wouldn't be correct to say that "Nazi Bell" is debunked. Or am I picking nits?

Based on a quick read of the article linked above, it seems that the main 'beef' of the author is to show that others who have used Cook/Witkowski research have been too quick to state their theories as established facts etc. and not to say that the whole theory presented by C and W is false.

In my opinion having evidence of a power station located can be taken as proof that something requiring lots of power was done at the site, and the nature of it is still unknown to us.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the statement made by Gerold Schelm (the author of the article) that he had contacted Mr. Witkowski but "he was unable to produce any evidence so far". I couldn't find any information about the author with a quick Google search which wasn't in some way related to the article, so I don't know what his qualifications would be - but I don't find it at all surprising that an published author/researcher doesn't have time to answer all emails which demand proof or evidence. It could be that I'm reading too much from that single sentence, and (obviously) I'm one who "wants to believe"

I'll get back to this after I get off from work.

Honestly: I loved Cook's book and Witskowski's claims really get the blood going.. However, after the excitment is over, the serious head scratching begins. Is any of this true, you have to ask? What have the authors provided to suport the claims? Cook could have gone to Poland and frankly I forget now if his book claims that he actually went to the Henge site. If he did go how come he did not see the other site that Gerold saw and draw the instant conclusion that the bases of both sites looked identical? How come Witskowski who lives in Poland didn't see the connection?

It is clearly known and documented that German scientists were ahead on a technological level on every possible level except for nuclear during the war. They invented all kinds of things that the allies did not have. There is all kinds of talk about wonder weapons and the like. The Henge that Witkowski describes might have existed but maybe not at that site? Maybe it did not exist. We cannot make a solid claim except to say that the Henge sure as heck looks like the base of a cooling tower. Anyone could see this. So, more work, more research is needed before I'll "believe" that there was such a thing as a Nazi Bell.

regards,

Fred Houpt

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
the main reason i went with the " nazi bell debunked " tagline was 1 to get attention , and 2 to highlight the fact that the prime " evidence " for the " bell " was the anomylous ` henge ` .

to paraphrase C&W " we dont know what the henge is ................. so it must be evidence of some experiment for which there is no other evidence "

the cooling toower theory shows just how little research C&W seem to have done

and while i am kicking cook - has he not heard of cites , idexes , foot notes or ANY of the common tricks good authors use to help us objectivly read thier books ???

Originally posted by DCFusion
Very interesting find. The article does, in my opinion, clearly point out that the 'Henge' is a cooling tower base, and not an apparatus used to support the nazi bell.

According the author of this article, Nick Cook made claims such as the bolts on top of the Henge being used to suspend the Nazi Bell when it deffinately appears that they were actually used to support the cooling tower.

However, I guess the argument could be made that the Nazis needed some kind of structure to support the 'Bell' and that the base of a cooling tower fit the bill.

Just because something is typically used for a specific purpose, does not mean it is always used for that purpose. I mean, who hasn't used a butter knife as a flat head screw driver when in a pinch

But, I think that the author of the article debunked Nick Cooks claims about the Henge being used to support the Nazi Bell (but it doesn't necessarily mean the Nazi Bell never existed).

EDIT: Spelling

[edit on 11/28/2005 by DCFusion]

I have to comment this as well:
It was not Cook in the first place who claimed that the bolts on top of the Henge were used to suspend the Nazi-Bell, it was Igor Witkowski:

"Witkowski had pointed out to Cook some metal bolts, which were visible on the top of the structure, right above every column. Witkowski concluded, that those bolts once had absorbed the physical force of a heavy apparatus that must have been placed in the middle of the structure."
as you can find in my article close to the photos about those bolts. The original source for this information can be found in Nick Cook's book "the Hunt for Zero Point", Witkowski's conversation with Cook is written there in detail.

And finally, I didn't debunk Cook's claims about the "Henge", it were Witkowski's claims, Cook only reported this conversation in his own book.

Golf Sierra

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
the main reason i went with the " nazi bell debunked " tagline was 1 to get attention , and 2 to highlight the fact that the prime " evidence " for the " bell " was the anomylous ` henge ` .

to paraphrase C&W " we dont know what the henge is ................. so it must be evidence of some experiment for which there is no other evidence "

the cooling toower theory shows just how little research C&W seem to have done

and while i am kicking cook - has he not heard of cites , idexes , foot notes or ANY of the common tricks good authors use to help us objectivly read thier books ???

Please don't use such such head lines to get attention. It is very misleading and puts me in the situation that I have to clarify that I didn't debunk the Nazi-Bell story, but the Henge theory.

This is how misunderstandings are creating. Some other guests here on this board will take it not as a head line, but will get the wrong message "The Bell story is bogus" and tell this to others, and we know that this thread was about the "henge"-theorie, not about the Bell-story itself.

Golf Sierra

Interesting reading, but I'm not convinced. If I remeber the book correctly teh ' Bell ' was tested several hundred , meters down in the mine shaft. As far as I know Cook never made any references to the bell being tested in the ' Henge '. He only thought that the test rig was built to test powerful engines, which he thought was the ' Bell '.

What exactly is the nazi bell?

mnmcandiez,
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It is in your best interest to post more substantial replies

I just read Nick Cooks book over the weekend and I do not recall him making any statments that he presented as "truth" that the base was the "smoking gun" for the bell. My impression was that he went to the site just like this guy did and saw the same things and drew no conclusions other than the location seemed very remote and ideal for the type of testing a secret facility would conduct. In his book he states the experements were conducted deep in a mine shaft inside of a container lined with ceramic tiles. So reading the article I think the author jumps to far in claiming he has disproved anything. He makes a point about the base and speculates it could be a test stand thats it.

If the base was indeed a base for a cooling tower that tower could have just as easily been used to provide cooling water to the bell deep inside the mine shaft. The "factory" may have begun its life as just that a manufacturing facility. During the war it becomes a testing or enginerring facilty. I think the base could have been used as a test stand and maybe it was a tower. Maybe it was a tower that became a test stand. I think the author jumps to the same conclusion he accuses IW of leaping too but on the far end of the belief spectrum. You based your acceptance on this being a water tower on the suggestion of one guy who you happen to rubn into at the site. So you jump in the car and rush off to this power station and BANG here is a big cooling tower that looks like the bell test stand so you jump to the conclusion that this must be an old cooling tower and could not have had a duel use.
Bottom line is no one knows for sure what went on there and what was done with the facilities. But do not accuse Nick Cook of jumping on the IW bandwaggon because I did not get that impression from his book at all and I do not think he ment to convey that. I think he went to great lengths to show that the loxcation had nothing there and only speculation as to what the facilities were used for. I think he did this to convey the extent that the Nazis went to clean the location and remove any evidence of what they did. He re-enforces this with the dramitization of the killing of the 62 scientist who worked on the project. His entire book is about the old saying of "where there is smoke there is fire". He shows all of the old evidence of the Foo Fighters and Nazi anti-grav experiments and then shows how there were statments made by highpowered aerospace personel after the war that indicated that the US had recovered some form of exotic propulsion system from the Nazis and then the trail goes cold.
I think the evidence is indeed short but that does not mean there is no evidence. What it means is that we may just have to wait till someone else is on their deathbed and confesses.

Good post Grenadier. I don't have the book in front of me right now, so if I'm off by a few facts then I can be corrected.

I'll tell you all an odd story. There is a guy I know who just so happens to come from the little village in what is now Poland where the Henge site is. Small world. So, I told him about it and showed him photographs. He knew of the site only more recently and he tells me that during the war, the Germans had basically two types of facilities in this part of what was then known as the Sudatenland. There were the clearly obvious buildings and then there were the deeply hidden ones. Of the hidden ones some but not all were buried deeply in the mountains, carved into the hills with many killometers of tunnels, almost none of it explored post-war. Of the hidden above ground, the Henge site is one such site. The local people in the villages around that area knew nothing of it's existence because they were not employed there and it was so secret that they were built deep in the forests with hard to see roads. That is why Gerold had so much trouble finding it. This was a deliberate design.

Now, what happened at that site is still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. If there was underground research there and it was nuclear, you'd think that it would leave at least a measurable trace behind; but Gerold found nothing out of the ordinary. That's just a point to consider. He also saw no ceramic tiles. They might have all been stripped away but then again I think it is Witkowski who claims that they were there to see. So, if so, where are they now? It is true that the Henge structure might have had a duel role. However, what is so clear is that its structure is a duplicate of the existing cooling towers. So, for the Henge to be something else, that would have held up a so called Bell with it's enormous weight, etc., is not impossible but it stretches my belief that it just so happened to use the identical substructure of a cooling tower.

Finally, Tim Ventura has updated his report on the so-called Nazi Bell and this time his views are much more clarified. He says much more about the research going on at SARA and the mysterious nature of John Dering.

There might have been a replication of some such bell device in the USA but no one on the outside has seen it. No one on the outside of spooksville knows what became of Kammler. No one (other than Witskowki) claims to know whether there was a bell at the Polish site. So, much more has to be looked into.

We should all be careful what we claim we believe in. Gerold provided an alternative explanation to something that might have been built. Time will tell if he's right.

Regards,

Fred Houpt

Originally posted by bank teller
That's just a point to consider. He also saw no ceramic tiles. They might have all been stripped away but then again I think it is Witkowski who claims that they were there to see. So, if so, where are they now? It is true that the Henge structure might have had a duel role. However, what is so clear is that its structure is a duplicate of the existing cooling towers.

The Bell testing room was several hundred meters underground in a mine shaft, which has been flooded ever since. So it is impossible to check it out unless your a qualified mixed gas diver.
The ' Henge' structure was only a minor part of the story and is probably so prominent because it is the only thing left of the facility that he could take a picture of. It would be a mistake focus on this structure, especially when he makes it clear in his book the testing was conducted deep underground in the mine shaft.

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by bank teller


The Bell testing room was several hundred meters underground in a mine shaft, which has been flooded ever since. So it is impossible to check it out unless your a qualified mixed gas diver.
The ' Henge' structure was only a minor part of the story and is probably so prominent because it is the only thing left of the facility that he could take a picture of. It would be a mistake focus on this structure, especially when he makes it clear in his book the testing was conducted deep underground in the mine shaft.

So like, if the main testing was done down the bowels of a now flooded mine shaft, how do we know it was done down the mine shaft since it's all flooded?

Did I miss something or what? Where is it written in anyone's book or report that someone knows for sure it was done deep underground? And, when did those shafts get all filled up? Right after the war? It's too murky for me to make sense of.....so far....I don't think even Witkowski went into a flooded mine shaft.....

fred