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OP/ED: The mystery of mind control

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posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Deleting information on computers is easy, but will technology and mind control techniques allow humans to delete memory inside their brain? Pavlovian conditioning, drugs, and hypnosis are some tools that may allow for such mind altering abilities. I believe mind control through such methods as Pavlovian conditioning, drug usage, and hypnosis is possible, but some people may disagree. This involves the issue of mind over matter. Can our brain overcome outside influences such sexual suggestive tv commercials to buy certain products? If so, what about more subtle and insidious usage in technology such as neurochips implanted in patients with alzheimer's disease for medical research? These questions allow more food for thought, to form your own opinions on this subject.
 


So is mind control myth or reality? "'Mind control' is a made-up term", says Professor E Mark Stern of Iona Collage in New York, author of The Other Side of the Couch. "But yes, it is possible to totally influence a person's inner world."

"But then there are things like cults - there, mind control happens when a cult wins over another person's consciousness through hypnotic-like inducements including 'love bombs', a form of praise, overseeing an inductee's every action, and eventually using shame and the threat of being expelled by the cult as a means of controlling them."

Mind control is a relatively recent concept. It first emerged in the aftermath of the Korean war, when it was claimed that the Chinese had carried out mind control experiments on US prisoners of war, as depicted in the 1962 film The Manchurian Candidate.

Since then mind control, or "brainwashing", has been used to explain many different phenomena, from our ad-led consumer culture to some people's willingness to ditch everything and sign up to weird millenarian cults.

Related News Links:
www.nicolelislab.net
www.eetimes.com




posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 10:26 AM
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Nice read! I accidentally voted NO bias on this article. Sorry


Yeah, mind control is interesting. I believe it can happen just tell someone somethign enough and it may become true to them. Same with torture do it enough and most will say whatever you want.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 02:00 PM
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I wouldnt call much of the things mentioned "mind control" but rather willful submission to force and stress. To have real mind control would require unwillful submission to someone, which cannot be done currently with a aware, concious subject who is purposely resisting. Basically you can torture them into doing as you say, and gonig along, and perhaps influencing them, but not controlling them.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 02:09 PM
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well i have to agree that "mind control" is a made up term, but the power of suggestion is a great one. an example of "self mind control" would be like the monks that can set themselves on fire and not even flinch ad they die.

if you or someone else tells you something enough, you will come to believe it.

my 2 bits

--Kit.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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Sometimes you see captives identifying with their captors; obviously the stress has something to do with breaking down a person's defenses is some way.

But inasmuch as no one really knows how memory works, i.e., where in the brain a particular memory resides, it'd be pretty difficult to selectively remove memories, I think -- especially is you ascribe to the view that memory is analogous to holography.

There're a lot of things in my past it'd be nice to forget (in 60 years you can screw up a LOT), but if we don't have the memories of our errors, then where is the moral awakening and learning-from-our-mistakes?



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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Very interesting OTS, that brings up a very interesting question. What would happen if certain memories were erased? Would we still have the memory of the lesson that erased memory gave us? Would it be morally and ethically right to erase an abusive childhood memory for an unhappy member of society? Would it necessarily make this individual a happier person? These are a few questions we must ponder.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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Nice post. I agree that Mind Control is not a reality, but is more so an "influence" of an idea.

You cannot make someone perform something on someone that has no will to do it, but you CAN make someone turn their no into a yes. It is all related to influencing the mind, and having another to want something. The downside of such practice is when it is implemented without someone's knowledge, (ex: subliminal messaging) and when purposed for enslavement of one's will to another.

[edit on 26-11-2005 by E_Pluribus_Unum]



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 10:37 PM
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But if we erase the memory, then the feelings from it will still be there, or the reactions to certain stresses. Like if you were sexually abused as a child, and then later were very repressed, you would want to figure out why. Sooner or later you would find a way to recover the supressed memory.

I personally don't think that we can be forced to do something we wouldn't be able to do normally. For instance, if I was told to go out and kill someone, then I don't believe that I would be able to since I wouldn't be able to normally without some VERY serious justification.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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Good point Zap, See, that was one of the points I was been pondering about, if the memory was to be erased, would the effect caused by that memory be erased too? And would the memory be 100% erased?


[edit on 113030p://666 by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy]



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 11:07 PM
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The reaction to what happened to you would become like a muscle memory over time. If you were able to IMMEDIATELY erase the memory, and it wasn't TOO traumatic, then you might be able to erase the reaction to it. However, after a certain amount of time, you wouldn't be able to control your reaction to the stimulus that created the memory. You would react without even thinking about it or realizing that you were reacting.

I'm going to use an example from my cat, because it fits in what I'm saying. One of my cats had a previous owner who beat the crap out of her, for climbing the furniture. One day, after we had had her for over a year, and NEVER laid a hand on her except for petting, and being nice to her, I raised my hand to run it through my hair. I happened to be standing over her when I did it, and she flinched very noticably. It had been programmed into her that when a hand was raised in a certain way, it was going to hit her, and when I raised my hand in the same way, it was an automatic reaction that she flinched. It would be the same with a person. Over time certain reactions are learned and programmed into us, whether we think about it or not.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 11:27 PM
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Zap, this reminds me of examples of Pavlovian conditioning, and muscle memory.
For example, when my history teacher turns on the overhead, everyone in my class gets out their pens and starts rapidly writing down the notes off the overhead onto their paper without even thinking about it. Why do they do this? Because these students and myself were conitioned to conform in the certain manner the school has taught us to. My question to you is, what is the difference between Pavlovian conditioning, and muscle memory? What has your cat learned? Muscle memory or Pavlovian conditioning? Maybe a bit of both?



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Here are a couple of definitions of the difference between muscle memory, and pavlovian responses.

But after a while, the "seeing-thinking-doing" gradually becomes "seeing-doing" because your muscles seem to "know" and "remember" just what to do. What you're learning now is speed, i.e. how to perform the task carefully and quickly. That's muscle memory.

Scientists call this "kinesthetic memory" or "neuro-muscular facilitation" and they speak of "sensory-motor" learning, since you are combining sensing input, i.e. what you see with your eyes, with motor output, i.e. what you do with your body.
www.simlog.com...

Pavlovian Conditioning

Pavlovian conditioning is an important form of learning that involves the pairing of stimuli independent of an organism's behavior. The key stimulus and response elements of Pavlovian conditioning are:

Unconditioned stimulus

This type of stimulus unconditionally elicits a response, also referred to as a respondent. For example, a puff of air to the cornea of the eye is an unconditioned stimulus that produces a blinking response.

Unconditioned response

This type of response occurs to an unconditioned stimulus without prior conditioning. The blinking response after a puff of air to the cornea of the eye is an example of an unconditioned response.
www.psychology.uiowa.edu...

With Pavlovian Responses it's "If THIS happens, then THIS will happen." With Muscle Memory, it's more "I want to do this, so my body should do this." if that makes sense. Over time your muscles learn to react a certain way to things you do.

With the reaction to some kind of trauma your muscles will eventually learn to react to things going on around you. Like with my cat. Pavlovian Responses can be unlearned, relatively easily, with counselling. Muscle memory is harder to "unlearn".



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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To influence constant usage of a reaction, there has to be some benefit to the subject. And everyone having instincts of survival, conditioning plays an important role in everyday life.

For example: When Zap raises his hand to scratch his head, his cat flinches to brace for an impact (that may happen). Also When LoD said that people would automatically take notes without order to, that is because they would like to save themselves some time.

However, conditioning in general can become a very negative impact on your life. It may cause you to assume to much, and this may hinder the very process you were trying to help yourself with. For example lets say that someone turns on an overhead, and students get ready to take notes, when all the teacher was doing was cleaning the overhead.

On memory erasing, I would believe that the subject is induced to believe that he should forget what he knows for his own good, for his own survival. This may be very true in cases such as fabricated assassins, and allowing themselves to forget what they know about killing, who they killed etc in order to save themselves if they are to be questioned about what they have done. Hypnosis like this may allow victims of posttraumatic stress to forget past events, and allow them to go on with normal life.

I recall LoD telling me about a neighbor of his, who was an American assassin, and that he couldn't even sleep with his own wife, because his condition to kill others may cause him to kill her in his sleep, as a reflex. This is an example of how a condition can be negative on your life.

As Darwin said, in his theory for evolution, that it wasnt the smartest or the strongest who would survive, but rather the ones most adapted to change. This supports the idea that conditioning is negative. One must be ready to adapt to new factors as they grow, or be left in the past.



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 06:39 PM
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There are some very good questions being asked here, on a very interesting topic. I'm not sure my question even belongs here, but here goes.

I have seen individuals that were totally influenced by other individuals to the point where I couldn't figure out where one person ended and the other person started. It was never an "equals" situation; one person was always the stronger in some obvious way, usually older and bigger.

The weaker person could totally live within a world that contained only the two of them; almost like a nursing baby, but these were adults.

What were the limits that the weaker person would not go past? I don't know if there were any.

These were always people who had very little, if any, formal education. I've seen two cases like this in my life.

Mind control? Or something else, maybe instinctual level?



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 08:03 PM
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If you have ever heard of a "pecking order" this sounds like what you are talking about.

Similar to a pack of wolves, there's an Alpha male that rules them all, and they all seem to know their places. That is the way our own society is, making us no different from a pack of wolves sadly.

If you don't think there is a preconcieved class structure, just look at public schools. We have: preps, rednecks, nerds, band geeks, goths, losers, and they just all seem to know their place within their own cliques. Who is superior, who has the most clout in a group is largely decided upon the ego and the power of a person.

It is not very often you see the elite class associating with trailer trash, unless it be when they are arresting them.



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Or the elite class might talk to the tailer trash only if they wanted their votes, swearing they grew up broke and had 5 ex-wives too.


[edit on 083030p://000 by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy]



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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You might want to consider the largest perpetrator of mind control, the commercial advertising industry. Look at the number of people camping out just to buy an X Box 360 last week. This got to get mine first attitude that people have or the got to be in a hurry or I'll get left behind attitude. Are in my opinion forms of mind control.



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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Well,if mind control dosen't exist there has sureley been alot of money and horrible human experiments to see if it does exist...
Three words people:

Dr. Ewan Cameron



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 02:04 PM
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I have seen individuals that were totally influenced by other individuals to the point where I couldn't figure out where one person ended and the other person started. It was never an "equals" situation; one person was always the stronger in some obvious way, usually older and bigger.

The weaker person could totally live within a world that contained only the two of them; almost like a nursing baby, but these were adults.


This is called co-dependence, and the relationship is just as important and necessary to the dominant individual as the subordinate.

This thread is dancing around the edges of what mind control is all about, imo.

The key to mind control is 'compartmentalization', kind of like the key to getting caught up in a movie is 'suspension of disbelief'.

Emotional trauma is induced, usually via extreme physical (sometimes sexual) or emotional abuse rising to the level of torture to the point that a person 'dis-associates'. In this state, a person is completely open to suggestion, almost like under hypnosis, only more powerful. At this point, the 'handler' creates a 'compartment' independent of the rest of the subject's conscious mind. The purpose of the mind-control is inserted into this compartment, and a 'trigger' (usually an obscure word or phrase) is left attached to the compartment via the subconscious. The subject is unaware of the compartment at the level of its conscious mind, and goes about business pretty much as usual. When the trigger is used, the compartment is activated, and the individual goes about completing the task ordered by the mind control.

Anyone ever see the episode of "The Three Stooges" where (I think it was) Moe would go off every time somebody said 'Niagara Falls'? "Slowly I turned...... inch by inch...... step by step...... And then I gave him one of these! and one of these! and one of those!" (As he pokes Curly in the eyes and hits him on the head and punches him in the stomach)

Another example is attack dogs, the highly trained kind. They are as sweet and nice as the friendliest dog, until their handler uses a certain word or phrase (usually in German) and points out the intended target. Then they go beserk, and straight for the throat, or other vulnerable area within easy reach of their snapping jaws.

See the difference between true mind control and Pavlovian response or the power of suggestion?



posted on Nov, 28 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499
You might want to consider the largest perpetrator of mind control, the commercial advertising industry. Look at the number of people camping out just to buy an X Box 360 last week. This got to get mine first attitude that people have or the got to be in a hurry or I'll get left behind attitude. Are in my opinion forms of mind control.


This goes back to what I said again, its not really making somebody do something against their own will, but rather making them believe that they want it.

Basically Microsoft and Mr. Bald Head marketed 360 in a way that it was like "IF U WATCH MTV U MUST GET 360!!! IT IS SO COOL, IF YOU DO NOT BUY THE PREMIUM PACKAGE U ARE NOT COOL!!! ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS ARE GETTING ONE, WHY NOT U??!?!? ARE U NOT COOL OR SOMETHING?!?!?!?"

(please excuse my crude all caps typing*)

And thus, we have a mad rush of zombies saying: "MUST BE COOL, MUST HAVE 360!!!"

Why do people want it so bad? Microsoft made them want it!



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