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Indian Air Force : News, Pics and Discussion thread

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posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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True, captor is a non-AESA radar, but this radar is only installed for IOC deliveries, If India wanted AESA equipped Typhoons it could have them, as that is included in the 'tranche 3 standard' spec which all Typhoons will adhere to even if the tranche 3 production run itself doesn't go ahead. (no decision taken at this time)


EF is literally smoked in this department by all of the compitition....Russian IRST's (like the new one on the Mig-35) are considered better than the PIRATE. Quite honestly, apart from cool sounding acronyms (CAPTOR, PIRATE, JOUST, PIMAWAS, DASS, ACS, etc ... etc ... its never ending ) the EF's present sensor and avionics suite fails to impress.


Can you show any comparison between PIRATE and Russian IRST's? How are they considered better? Seeing as no one but the partner Air Forces has any experience at all of the PIRATE system how reliable can these opinions be?

The Typhoons avionics and sensor suite are second only (and comparable in many areas) to the Raptors, if they fail to impress you it can only be because you know nothing about them.

Remember too that buying Typhoon (or Rafale) might well give India access to the Meteor BVRAAM, currently the most advanced missile in its class with no US rival yet formally launched (development wise - not fired
)

[edit on 6-12-2005 by waynos]




posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 10:02 PM
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Well acess to the Meteor might have alredy been secured ..


The European MBDA Consortium has made persistent offers to integrate the Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM 80+ nautical miles range) with the Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi-30MKI fighters.

A transfer of technology arrangement in relation to the Meteor BVRAAM may prove to be the optimum logical step. Subject to critical decisions, in the long run the Meteor and Astra BVRAAM may complement the Russian ultra-long-range (400-km+) R-172 BVRAAM and R-73RDM2 or possibly Israeli Python 4/5 Near Beyond Visual Range/Within Visual Range (NBVR/WVR) AAMs in the IAFs formidable and fearsome AAM inventory.


full article >>

In addition, MBDA is also the technical partner to India's DRDO in the development of the indigenous Astra BVRAAM (range 100+ km; alredy test fired a few times).

In addition, India will also in most probability be getting AASM's as well ...



France and India are discussing the integration of modular air-to-surface weapons on the Indian air force's Sukhoi Su-30MKI and MiG-29 fighter aircraft.

Sagem Defense and Security, part of the Safran Group, is discussing an agreement with India covering the Armament Air-Sol-Modulaire (AASM) range of precision-guided weapons now in development for the French air force.

A Sagem official says the company has been in talks with India for a "few months" concerning a possible AASM purchase. The French company already provides some avionics systems for India's Su-30MKIs.

Were a deal to be struck, it would not be the first time for India to integrate a foreign weapon on its Su-30MKI. New Delhi has already selected a version of the Israeli Rafael Popeye medium-range air-to-surface missile. Indian interest in the AASM also underscores a gap in Russia's own weapons inventory, which has no comparable system.

The Su-30MKI likely would carry six AASM weapons on two triple-store launchers. The MiG-29 would be fitted with 4-6 rounds. Russia would qualify the weapon, with the Ahktubinsk test center a candidate for firing trials.

Several guidance options eventually will be available for the AASM including radar and imaging infrared seekers. All variants would use an inertial measurement unit coupled with GPS, with one low-cost version using only an IMU/GPS package. The French air force is slated to start taking delivery of the first batch of AASMs in late 2006 or early 2007. It has placed an initial order for 3,000.

The AASM has a range of up to 50 km. using a high-altitude launch, with a fly-out range of 15 km. from a low-altitude release. Wing-kit and solid rocket motor range extension options are also in the pipeline. While the basic AASM kit is for a 500-lb. bomb, it could be comparatively easily modified for either 1,000- or 250-lb. munitions.
Source : AWST
aviationnow.ecnext.com...

Since India has in its posession 100% of the MKI's radar, avionics source codes ... integration of these will not be difficult.

[edit on 6-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 10:30 PM
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Boeing offers tradeoffs to clinch fighter deal


HUMA SIDDIQUI
Wednesday, December 07, 2005 at 0000 hours IST

NEW DELHI, DEC 6: US-based Boeing is preparing to get a head start over its rivals in the race for the 126 medium range combat aircraft that the Indian Air Force is planning to induct.

While other foreign contenders are confused over the “offset” norms
, Boeing claims it has the requisite product range and technology to meet the government’s guidelines on defence equipment procurement.

Under the new guidelines, 30% of the total cost of any deal above $70 million will be used as “offsets,” which means that the foreign vendor will have to buy defence or other specified equipment from Indian industry.

In this connection, Boeing has for the first time entered into a “dialogue” with the IAF for the innumerable options it has to offer, vice president of Boeing F/A-18 programme Chris Chadwick, told FE.

Mr Chadwick pointed out that the Hornet Industrial Team (GE, Raytheon and Northrop) are exploring different sectors of the industry including military, biotech, IT and aerospace—where there are a lot of opportunities.

Last week, Boeing had said they had very comprehensive discussions with the IAF on selling and co-producing F-18 Super Hornet fighter planes ahead of the request for proposals (RFPs) that are expected to be issued shortly.

full article >> www.financialexpress.com...

Oh Boy! ... the heat is on



posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 10:38 PM
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US media reports indicate Bush administration’s clearance for possible transfer of sensitive radar technology like Raytheon AN/APG-79 AESA radar of the Super Hornet to India

link

____



: Speaking at an update on the Super Hornet, Chris Chadwick, vice-president F/A-18 Program with Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, said the US and Indian governments were holding talks over what technology could be released for the approaching competition for 126 multirole fighters.

The Block 2 includes advanced systems such as the APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array, Advanced Targeting FLIR and Multi-Functional Information Distribution System. Co-production with India is likely.

"We know they're interested in co-production and technology transfer," he said. "We're willing to entertain all these different options."

www.flightinter... national.com/Articles/Boeing+plans+Super+Hornet+offer+to+India.html




posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 11:21 PM
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Lockheed Martin are offering a "fully loaded" variant of the F-16 exclusively to India. This variant is an improvement of the block 60 that was sold to the UAE.


US aviation manufacturer Lockheed Martin has offered to build "exclusive" F-16 fighters for the Indian Air Force, much superior to any existing fighters in service world over.

".. we are prepared to make upgraded F-16s to India's specifications with complete transfer of technology
" Mike Kelly, senior executive of Lockheed Martin.

"We are ready to develop new Block 70 for the IAF," the Lockheed Martin official said.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com...
_________


...The UAE is the only customer so far for the Block 60, but Lockheed is not ruling out offering the aircraft to India. “We don’t have a firm understanding of the requirement yet, but we will offer a couple of different configurations with a range of capabilities up to the Block 60’s radar and systems,” says June Shrewsbury, F-16 programme general manager.
...
Lockheed Martin is flight testing the next step in capability for the F-16E/F Block 60 fighter. While the expanded Standard 2 capability is being flight tested, the final Standard 3 is in design. “Development is on course,” says

Standard 2 adds capability, including the internal forward-looking infrared and targeting system, integrated electronic warfare system, additional modes for the APG-80 active-array radar and automated modes for the digital flight control system.

“Standard 2 and 3 are for the most part software only,” says Franks, “although there is additional alternate mission equipment and weapons at Standard 3.” The final standard also includes additional automated modes. “We are developing and flight testing Standard 2, and in the middle of designing Standard 3, with the pieces coming together at the suppliers,” he says. Standard 2 will be available “in the first part of 2006”.

full article >>

and this seems to be the reason ....

The potential for 126 jets is a significant program," said Tom Jurkowsky, a Lockheed spokesman. "If we don't get any more F-16 orders by 2005, we would have to take action to close the line. India is a market we want to pursue."

link

The block 60 features :

> Its range is extended with addition of fuselage mounted conformal fuel tanks and wing tanks.
> Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 "Agile Beam Radar" AESA radar
> Northrop Grumman AN/ASQ-28 IFTS (Internal FLIR and Targeting System)
> F110-GE-132 turbofan, rated 32,500 lbs thrust
> New Modular mission computer has a processing throughput of 12.5 million instructions per second and provides sensor and weapons integration.
> ALQ-165 electronic countermeasures system, also known as the Airborne Self-Protection Jammer (ASPJ)
> New electronic warfare management system
> Fiber-optic avionics data bus
> Up to eight chaff/flare dispensers,
> New advanced friend or foe detection system
> New pilot-aircraft interface by incorporating three advanced 5-inch by 5-inch color displays.

The block 70 might have the M4.2+ avionics added to the above list as well >>

The F-16 is a compact, multirole fighter aircraft designed to be highly maneuverable in air-to-air combat and air-to-surface attack. There are several versions of the F-16 used by the United States, including the Block 40 and Block 50.

The Block 40 F-16 primary mission fills the air-to-surface attack role, while the Block 50’s primary mission is destruction and suppression of enemy air defenses.

The M4.2-plus avionics upgrade combines both combat roles into a single fighter aircraft. The upgrade is being completed using spiral development, meaning all program stakeholders, including developmental testers, contractors and operational units work together early in the process to ensure testing is conducted more efficiently. This helps align operational objectives and is geared toward providing mature, stable systems to the warfighter as quickly as possible.

"The M4.2-plus upgrade achieves the goal of the Air Force's F-16 Common Configuration Implementation Program to support common aircraft equipment and core avionics software capabilities," said Shauna Urwiller, Global Power Fighters program manager from the 416th FLTS.

www.af.mil...

The block 70 seems to be one hell of an awesome package.....since tech transfer is mandatory for the MRCA tender, it will be hard for India to say no to all those technologies.




Infact Lockheed Marting displeyed these latest F-16's in Indian Air Force Markings at Aero India 2005 >> here are the links (pics are large)

F-16 in IAF colours


Underside

______

IAF air chief marshal's views :



Maintaining that "F-16s are very much in contention", Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi today said the Government is expected to issue Request for Proposals (RFPs) to prospective parties on purchasing 126 fighter aircraft.

Asked about the possibility of F-16s bagging the deal, he said: "That possibility exists. Of course, we have asked them for information; so, it's very much in contention."

He termed the recent second Indo-US air exercise at the IAF's Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal a "great learning process". "From military point of view, it's a great learning process; they (Americans) learnt from us and we learnt from them."

"We get to exercise with different kind of equipment..We have exercised F-16s and AWACs; that's the big advantage to India," said Air Chief Marshal Tyagi, who described F-16s as "decent aircraft",.


www.outlookindia.com...

______



NEW DELHI: Armaments major Lockheed Martin, in the race to supply 126 combat jets to India, is eyeing several other opportunities to sell aircraft and hardware worth bns of dollars to the country's armed forces.

"I'm telling my colleagues in the US that there's a new opportunity here almost every day," Royce Caplinger, managing director of Lockheed Martin, told IANS.

"The Indian government's request for proposals should be issued before the end of the year and we are anxious to get on and compete. We have a team standing by and the US government is preparing as well," Caplinger said.

"The IAF has the Mirage and MiG-29 in its inventory and likes them but the F-16 represents the latest and greatest that the US has to offer. The platform may be old but the technology, weapon systems and cockpit are the latest."

"We have competed with the other fighters and we can win this bid."


Noting that the F-16 was in service with 24 countries, Caplinger said Lockheed Martin would have "no problems" with offering co-production of the jets in India. "We are trying to be pro-active about this deal and have already visited Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to look at their (production) facilities," he said.

By choosing the F-16, Caplinger said, India would also get "on the path" to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
currently being developed by Lockheed Martin.


full article >> economictimes.indiatimes.com...

_____

Look at what Richard Kirkland, vice president of Lockheed Martin says in this interview:

"My vision of the future is that one day India is going to be flying the F-35. I truly believe it.
There is no comparison for the F-35—the French don't offer it, the Russians don't offer it. It only exists for US partners. One day the US and India will co-develop what's going to be next."


203.200.89.68...

__________
In addition, LM displayed F-35's at Aero India 2005 earlier this year in Indian Air Force colours !


View pic of L/M's display of F-35 in IAF colours

___

Added later : another weaponised F-16 in IAF colours >>

[edit on 7-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:33 AM
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Another "hard to believe" article from an obscure source .... the website claims this is an "intelligence report"


Take this with more than a grain of salt..



Dassault warns pullout from warplane deal

6 December 2005: France’s Dassault Aviation has threatened to withdraw its bid from the proposed one-hundred-and-twenty-six multi-role combat aircraft deal unless the Indian defence ministry finalises the choice by 31 March 2006.

Blaming bureaucratic hurdles, Dassault says it would keep production lines of its aircraft offered to the IAF, the Mirage 2000-V, open for three years in case the deal goes through, otherwise, it would be inseparably committed to the French government’s joint-strike fighter programme for the air force and navy. (is that the Rafale
)

Top sources
said that the French government has approved Dassault’s stand, and added that without a quick decision, the aircraft price indicated in the request for proposal response would be scaled up.


In any case, the French have indicated a maximum production life of eighteen to twenty years for the Mirage 2000-V, whose technology would be entirely transferred, to meet IAF requirements, but the Indian defence ministry believes Dassault is employing pressure tactics to speed the deal, but it would be approved only in the normal course.


link

[edit on 7-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 04:39 AM
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Now .. getting to some local news ..


HAL, L&T plan JV to make aircraft parts
Agencies

Mumbai, Dec 5:State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plans to float a joint venture company with engineering major Larsen and Toubro to make aircraft components.

"We are in discussion with L&T... They have submitted a proposal, and we are evaluating it... We want to have a memorandum of understanding first," HAL Managing Director AK Saxena said.

Both the companies plan to have a joint development of composites, parts, and components for aircraft. L&T wants to make major sub-assemblies for both airframe and aero-engines.

"A lot of orders are coming in, and we are seriously thinking about a major participation from the private sector industries, who are capable of delivering quality outputs," he said.

The Bangalore-based aircraft maker recently floated a 50:50 joint venture with French-aeroengine major Snecma for civilian aircraft engines. As per the understanding, HAL will manufacture compressor blades, while Snecma would provide forging and the machining would be done jointly, he said.

Referring to aircraft projects, Saxena said the company would commence limited series production of Intermediate Jet Trainer once they get a firm order from the Indian Air Force.

"We have already ordered for AL-551 higher-power engine from Russia. We developed two prototypes, which are undergoing operational trials," Saxena said.

Designed and developed by HAL, IJT will replace the Kiran basic jet trainer of the IAF starting from 2007-08. IJT would replace more than 200 Kiran aircraft including those 16, which forms the famed Suryakiran aerobatic team of the IAF.

"We have completed the design studies and have agreed on all other formalities. India needs about 45 MTAs and we are just waiting for a firm commitment from the Russian side," he said, adding that both the companies would start the cargo version first with a capacity to ferry 18 to 20 tonnes.

HAL plans to fly the first prototype within 26 months after getting a formal approval from the government.

IAF wants 45 of these aircraft while the Russians were looking for 60 or more. Both the companies were looking for more than 100 orders to start the project to make it commercially viable.

Official sources said the project would be finalised during the Prime Minister's ongoing Russia visit.


full article >> www.centralchronicle.com...



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by waynos
If India wanted AESA equipped Typhoons it could have them, as that is included in the 'tranche 3 standard' spec which all Typhoons will adhere to even if the tranche 3 production run itself doesn't go ahead. (no decision taken at this time)


What is the present status of the AMSAR AESA ? ... there are no recent news reports on it as well ... and for the past year or so its gone into "stealth mode"


The present tranche 1's have almost no A2G capability ... when are the tranche 2's and 3's planned ?

Since the competition is throwing AESA radars with tech transfer, it would be hard to see an airplane with a mechanically scanned radar coming close to securing the tender.

The block-70 F-16 comes with the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 AESA
The block 2 F/A-18 comes with the Raytheon AN/APG-79 AESA
The Mig-35 will come with the Elta EL/M-2052 AESA or a Russian AESA
Even the Gripen offer comes with the impressive NORA.

check this out >>


[SIZE=3]NORA – ACTIVE ELECTRONICALLY SCANNED ARRAY[/SIZE]
Ericsson’s future airborne radar is Not Only a Radar, NORA
, but also a complete electronic warfare system including jamming and data communication. The new radar will use an Active Electronically Scanned Array, AESA, built up with approximately 1000 individual transmit/receive modules. The antenna, mounted on a single-axis platform, will give well over 200 degree coverage in azimuth. NORA will offer superior performance by virtue of a number of core capabilities at Ericsson – beam agility, beam widening, multi-channel processing, target-specific waveforms and low radar cross-section.

In addtion it also offers :
-High resolution air-to-air and air-to-ground modes
-Outstanding tracking performance
-Comprehensive ECCM
-High Reliability
-Full support for AMRAAM missiles
-Modular construction

[SIZE=3]MIDIS – MODULAR, MULTI-FUNCTIONAL DEFENSIVE INFORMATION SYSTEM[/SIZE]
A new dimension in electronic warfare: MIDIS is a highly modular and multi-functional defensive information system that meets the requirements for situation awareness, survivability and sensor fusion in tomorrow’s dense and complex signal environment. MIDIS introduces new principles for signal selection and adaptive processing allied with state-of-the-art technology of Ericsson’s in-house integrated Microwave MultiChip Modules (MMCM).


^^A new dimension in electronic warfare: MIDIS is a highly modular and multi-functional defensive information system.

[SIZE=3]MACS – MODULAR AIRBORNE COMPUTER SYSTEMS[/SIZE]
Developed for the Gripen fourth-generation multi-role fighter, the Ericsson MACS is a standardized, highly modular multiprocessor real-time computer concept designed for severe airborne environments with their real-time applications. MACS meets all the requirements for demanding airborne situations and provides:

- High real-time performance
- Modular functionality and performance
- Low weight, volume and power consumption
- High reliability


^^Developed for the Gripen fourth-generation multi-role fighter, the Ericsson MACS is a standardized, highly modular multiprocessor real-time computer concept designed for severe airborne environments with their real-time applications.



Here's a GREAT Gripen cutaway (1.5 MB jpg file !)

link


At this stage, even the Gripen offer seems to be more advanced than the Eurofighter one



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 06:39 AM
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AMSAR is currently in the testing stage, scheduled to run until 2008. How about answering my questions? You keep knocking the Typhoon without giving any facts whatsoever, just saying 'it doesn't seem that good' isn't really enough.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by waynos
How about answering my questions? You keep knocking the Typhoon without giving any facts whatsoever, just saying 'it doesn't seem that good' isn't really enough.


My apologies for my rather poky language .... i really appreciate the Eurofighter greatly ... but i am not fully convinced about its dominating superiority as claimed and advertised. Here's why :

> Captor is Mechanically Scanned and is atleast 2 generations behind behind what the rest of the competing airplanes in the MRCA have to offer
> The TVC project for the EJ200 appears suspended. Even if the project is still on, it may not enter service (after all the testing, etc) in another 7 years. The Mig-35, Su-30 MKI feature 3D and 2D TVC alredy.
> Russians claims their new IRST - OLS 32 are the best in the world .. perhaps my arguments were a bit biased as well ... i take back my words about the pirate
> The Mig-35 will have (most likely) an avionics mix of the best of Russian, French, Isreali & Indian avionics...surely this is as good as the EF's
> The weapons that France, Russia and Israel (for the Mig-35) and America ( for F-16 and 18) are offering are better than those the EF will have.
> With 3D TVC surely the Mig-35 is more manuverable than the EF
> New Russian RAM's can significantly bring down the RCS of the Mig-35 to the EF's standard (that's what the guys at Mig say atleast)

Apart from the EJ-200's supercruise and excellent metallurgy technologies, there is nothing better or revolutionary that the Eurofighter has to offer (atleast it appears to me that way right now).

In addition, the Eurofighter's price tag is unjustified with reference to what it offers in the context of the competing airplanes and their price tag's.

Lastly, the export history of the Eurofighter in Singapore, Greece is also discouraging.

No offence intended. Cheers.


[edit on 7-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
> Captor is Mechanically Scanned and is atleast 2 generations behind behind what the rest of the competing airplanes in the MRCA have to offer


Why 2 generations? Clearly AESA types are more modern and more advanced, but that is only the actual scanner itself, the rest of the radar is no different on either type and I've not seen anything that says the technology of this radar is behind any other, much less '2 generations'. Particularly in the field of range, multiple target scanning and tracking, target prioritising etc.



> The TVC project for the EJ200 appears suspended. Even if the project is still on, it may not enter service (after all the testing, etc) in another 7 years. The Mig-35, Su-30 MKI feature 3D and 2D TVC alredy.


That is a fair point about the Russian fighters, but again I have seen no indication that the EJ200TVC development has been suspended. Besides exactly how relevant might that technology actually be in the face of 'off boresight' missiles and helmet mounted sights, where turning the plane itself is not such a big deal?

IF the Typhoons TVC upgrade has been suspended (and I say again I don't know if it has) then I would suspect something like that may be the reason. But yes, If India MUST have it then the Russians jets are the best bet. But if India MUST have it why are they then considering the F-16, 18 and Mirage 2000?



> Russians claims their new IRST - OLS 32 are the best in the world .. perhaps my arguments were a bit biased as well ... i take back my words about the pirate


OK


> The Mig-35 will have (most likely) an avionics mix of the best of Russian, French, Isreali & Indian avionics...surely this is as good as the EF's


Maybe it is, but even so, that doesn't make the Typhoons set up 'bad' or 'poor' does it? That sounds like 'if its not absolutely the best then it must be rubbish' when surely the worst you could say of it would really be that it 'is not a decisive factor'. However whether the rival systems are better, worse or as good can surely only be guesswork for us?



> The weapons that France, Russia and Israel (for the Mig-35) and America ( for F-16 and 18) are offering are better than those the EF will have.


Again, How do you know this? There is no US equivalent of the Meteor yet (though one is to be developed), the AIM9X is no 'better' than the ASRAAM, in its early guise the Typhoon uses US supplied AIM-120''s until the Meteor is ready. Much A2G ornance is either US supplied or developed jointly with France3 so that statement must surely be false?

ALARM? Storm Shadow? I suggest you think again.



> New Russian RAM's can significantly bring down the RCS of the Mig-35 to the EF's standard (that's what the guys at Mig say atleast)


So the Russians are aiming to get where the Typhoon is now? That makes them better? The RAF applied RAM to the Tornado fifteen years ago, things move on.


Apart from the EJ-200's supercruise and excellent metallurgy technologies, there is nothing better or revolutionary that the Eurofighter has to offer (atleast it appears to me that way right now).

In addition, the Eurofighter's price tag is unjustified with reference to what it offers in the context of the competing airplanes and their price tag's.

Lastly, the export history of the Eurofighter in Singapore, Greece is also discouraging.


So that fact that is has some things that the competition don't have doesn't count in its favour, while the things they offer that the Typhoon is getting too makes them superior?

That makes sense


Can't really argue about the price, it is quite an expensive machine, but I don't think its more expensive than the F-18, which it is superior to, and its extra expense over the F-16 and Mirage are justified in its far greater capability. The MiG 35 is a special case as Russian prices are artificially low and if cost was the overrriding factor then the MiG is what I would buy.

You can't seriously take Singapore and Greece inro consideration here as they were both political decisions (as Indeed India's choice might well turn out to be) and not related to aircraft performance at all. Greece is still buying the Typhoon don't forget, it just delayed the purchase and made an interin buy of F-16's, Austria has bought the Typhoon.

If decisions relied on who else has bought a plane, then nothing would ever saell as somebody always has to be first.

BTW, I took no offense at all at your earlier posts, I just wanted to open up the debate so I could tell what your views really were and I could answer them, as I have tried to here




[edit on 7-12-2005 by waynos]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy



India May Buy Tu-22M3 Long-range Bombers that it has leased

Russia may offer India the purchase instead of lease of long-range Tu-22M3 bombers, an informed source in the defense industrial complex reported on Monday to Interfax-AVN.

“The corresponding offer, as is expected, will be made to India’s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, during his visit to Moscow,” he said.

According to the source, “India will be offered Tu-22M3 missile carriers from Russia’s air force existing fleet which will undergo pre-sales export preparation.”

Source: 05.12.05, Interfax



___

Tupolev TU-22M Backfire

Origin: USSR
Type: medium strategic bomber and maritime reconnaissance/attack aircraft
Max Speed: 1,147 kt / 1,321 mph
Max Range 4,000 km / 2,485 miles
Dimensions: span 34.30 m / 112 ft 6.5 in
length 39.60 m / 129 ft 11 in
height 10.80 m / 35 ft 5.25 in
Weight: max. take-off 130,000 kg / 286,596 lb
Powerplant: two 20000-kg (44,092-lb) afterburning thrust turbofans of unknown designation
Armament: two 23-mm GSh-23 two-barrel cannon in a radar-controlled tail barbette; provision for 12000 kg (26,455 Ib) of disposable stores, including nuclear weapons and free-fall bombs carried internally, or two AS-4 'Kitchen' missiles carried under the wings, or one AS-4 'Kitchen' missile carried semi-recessed into the lower fuselage, or up to three AS-6
Operators: India(2006), Russia, Ukraine
www.combataircraft.com...


Russia waits for India's response to bomber proposal


PAVEDNIKI (Moscow Region), December 7 (RIA Novosti) - India has not yet replied to Russia's proposal to sell the Tu-22-M3E Russian bomber, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said Wednesday.

"The Indian side has not provided a reply since we made the proposal a day ago," Ivanov, who is also Russia's defense minister, told journalists.

Russia proposed that India buy the planes instead of leasing them. "Leasing won't work due to a number of technicalities," Ivanov said.

India and Russia have a long history of military cooperation. The two countries are currently working on contracts worth $10 billion. Notable deals in recent years include a contract for the modernization and sale of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier and deals on Sukhoi fighters and the T-90 battle tank.

In Tuesday's bilateral talks with President Vladimir Putin, the Indian prime minister said that the two countries were considering plans to build a multi-purpose transport plane and a fifth-generation fighter.

en.rian.ru...


[edit on 7-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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MOSCOW, December 6 (RIA Novosti) - Russia has signed a contract with the Indian Navy to deliver 16 MiG-29K Fulcrum D fighters, a MiG official said Tuesday.

Addressing an international economic forum on Russia-India strategic cooperation in the 21st century, Mikhail Globenko, head of the company's regional marketing and sales department, said the fighters were equipped with special systems that had been developed and manufactured in India.

"It is important that the deal outlines the idea of setting up a consignment warehouse and a technological service center in India," Globenko said, adding that this move would help provide timely and uninterrupted supplies of spare parts to India.

"We intend to do the same for the planes that we supply to the Indian Air Force," he said.

Globenko also elaborated on the modernization plans for the MiG-29 for the Indian Air Force. Russia has supplied these planes to India since the 1980s, and the 650 planes represent the core of Indian combat aviation.

The program also envisages upgrading the MiG-29s to multipurpose planes.

Globenko said there was good potential for modernizing the MiG-27 Flogger. Upgraded to include a new AL-31F engine, the fighter will soon undergo test flights. The engine increases the fighter's capacity by 22%-27% and considerably improves its takeoff-landing and maneuver capabilities while preserving fuel.


Globenko said cooperation between MiG and India had been established more than 40 years ago and had been continuing smoothly since then. Globenko said MiG still considered its partnership with India to be strategically important.

en.rian.ru...



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 11:20 AM
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I guess these would replace Sea Harriers, yes?

Anyu thoughts on my reply about the Typhoon? You do change direction quite often in mid discussion.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
Why 2 generations?


Well Modern radar generations proceed as : Mechanically scanned > Electronically scanned > Passive Elactronically scanned > Active Electonically Scanned


Clearly AESA types are more modern and more advanced, but that is only the actual scanner itself, the rest of the radar is no different on either type and I've not seen anything that says the technology of this radar is behind any other, much less '2 generations'. Particularly in the field of range, multiple target scanning and tracking, target prioritising etc.


The Captor is by far the best mechanically scanned radar there exists ( the LCA's MMR that flew a few days back is 2nd best imho)

Although the Captor has values of tracking range and the number of targets that can be engaged simentaneously compareable to phased array radars, it lacks the range, flexibility and tracking capability of AESA's.

For example : The Israeli Elta EL/M-2052 AESA can track 64 targets !!!

Check this out >>


An Active Electronically Steered Array (AESA) takes the concept of using an array antenna a step further. Instead of shifting the phase of signals from a single high power transmitter AESA employs a grid of hundreds of small "transmitter-receiver (TR)" modules that are linked together by high-speed processors.

Each TR module has its own transmitter, receiver, processing power, and a small spikelike radiator antenna on top. The TR module can be programmed to act as a transmitter, receiver, or radar. The TR modules in the AESA system can all work together to create a powerful radar, but they can do different tasks in parallel, with some operating together as a radar warning receiver, others operating together as a jammer, and the rest operating as a radar. TR modules can be reassigned to any role, with output power or receiver sensitivity of any one of the "subsystems" defined by such temporary associations proportional to the number of modules.

AESA provides 10-30 times more net radar capability plus significant advantages in the areas of range resolution, countermeasure resistance and flexibility. In addition, it supports high reliability / low maintenance goals, which translate into lower lifecycle costs. Since the power supplies, final power amplification and input receive amplification, are distributed, MTBF is significantly higher, 10-100 times, than that of a passive ESA or mechanical array. This results in higher system readiness and significant savings in terms of life cycle cost of a weapon system, especially a fighter.

The use of multiple TR modules also means failure of up to 10% of the TR modules in an AESA will not cause the loss of the antenna function, but merely degrade its performance. From a reliability and support perspective, this graceful degradation effect is invaluable. A radar which has lost several TR modules can continue to be operated until scheduled downtime is organized to swap the antenna.

kuku.sawf.org...


That is a fair point about the Russian fighters, but again I have seen no indication that the EJ200TVC development has been suspended. Besides exactly how relevant might that technology actually be in the face of 'off boresight' missiles and helmet mounted sights, where turning the plane itself is not such a big deal?

Sure BVR is critical and is the most important aspect....but is that an excuse to defend an airplane with inferior manuverability ?

Is it wise to overlook WVR so blatantly ? Can it be deemed sane to assume that a Eurofighter (if purchased) will never have to face other airplanes in WVR ??

In BVR too, the other airplanes have much more BVR ability than the Eurofighter ... the Meteor has alredy been offered and will in most probability be integrated into the Mig-35 or the Mirage-2000-5 ... if any of the two are chosen....the AESA radars of the F-16's, F-18's, Mig-35's will give them more than an edge in BVR (in addition to the best American/ Russian+French+Israeli missiles)



Maybe it is, but even so, that doesn't make the Typhoons set up 'bad' or 'poor' does it? That sounds like 'if its not absolutely the best then it must be rubbish' when surely the worst you could say of it would really be that it 'is not a decisive factor'. However whether the rival systems are better, worse or as good can surely only be guesswork for us?


No, it doesn't make the Typhoon poor... its avionics are advanced to say the least ... but that hardly matters if it is participating in a compition, when its inferior to that of the other competing airplanes



Again, How do you know this? There is no US equivalent of the Meteor yet (though one is to be developed), the AIM9X is no 'better' than the ASRAAM, in its early guise the Typhoon uses US supplied AIM-120''s until the Meteor is ready.


Like the article reads -- the Meteor is available to India from MBDA irrespective of the platform (infact MBDA are hardselling it for the Su-30 MKI !) ... the Mig-35 and the Mirage-2000-5 will surely have it if chosen.

There is no system that is equivalent of the the R-172 ramject powered super BVRAAM - and the Mig-35 will have it if chosen.

Not to mention new Mica's, Magic's, etc.

Further Israeli Python 5's are better than both the Aim 9x and the ASRAAM...Mig has alredy expressed its willingness to integrate these into the Mig-35.



ALARM? Storm Shadow? I suggest you think again.

Dont forget that France has offered the Armament Air-Sol-Modulaire (AASM) range of precision-guided weapons for the Mig-29 and the Mirages.

Also what about the Israeli Popoeye and the SPICE, and the PB-500-A1 LGB, the Israeli Sky Sheild offensive air-to-ground jammer system for use in SEAD .... and the impressive American JDAM's ? and the ever improving Russian A2G ordinance ?



So the Russians are aiming to get where the Typhoon is now? That makes them better? The RAF applied RAM to the Tornado fifteen years ago, things move on.


The Russians are alredy there now ... their new RAM reduces the RCS by over 15 times. New Indian Navy Mig-29 K's for the new carrier are alredy coming with these new RAM coatings.

That negates out the Eurofighter's lower RCS advantage as well.


So that fact that is has some things that the competition don't have doesn't count in its favour, while the things they offer that the Typhoon is getting too makes them superior?

So its the Typhoon that playing catch-up ! AESA, TVC, etc getting onto the Typhoon are only distant plans ... while the rest have it right now...that does make them superior.

By the time the Typhoon gets all that ... imagiene what else the others would have added ..

The Typhoon getting these goodies that the rest are alredy fielding in the distant future will increase the alredy extreme price of Typhoon...


You can't seriously take Singapore and Greece inro consideration here as they were both political decisions and not related to aircraft performance at all.

Sure Singapore's F-15 buy was politically motivated ... but that still does not explain the exit of the Eurofighter prior to that of the Rafale ( which has also somehow sneaked into the Indian MRCA tender-like the Typhoon)


[edit on 7-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
I guess these would replace Sea Harriers, yes?


No, it is for a new super carrier from Russia - INS Vikramadithya that will arrive in 2008. The Viraat along with the Sea Harriers (now upgraded with Israeli radars, communication & French navigation equipment & Israel's Derby BVRAAM's) will float on upto 2009-2010 ... when it will retire and give way to the indigenous carrier ADS with Naval LCA's.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:23 PM
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You have quoted many instances there where the opposition is excellent, but still there is nothing (AESA and TVC apart that is actually better than what the Typhoon has, that is my point, you were saying they were all better, not simply 'as good'. You also misunderstood one of my points, off-boresight missiles and helmet mopunted sights are nothing to do with BVR, which I never mentioned. They are striclty WVR devices that make absolute agility less important because the pilot simply has to look a the opposing fighter rather than point the plane at it.

You say there is no equivalent to the R-172 ramject powered super BVRAAM, well, I don't knoe the specifics of this missile but you do realise that the Meteor is a ramjet powered BVRAAM don't you?

One tack you use is confusing me, you say that the Typhoons weapons are inferior but when I named them you simply say India could buy them anyway. I'm sure India could, but that doesn't change the fact that they are Typhoon weapons.

I don't doubt that the weapons offered by France, Russia and the USA are superb at what they do, but there is nothing to say they are better than anything the Typhoon might carry, whereas you say they are inferior. That is my only objection here.


So its the Typhoon that playing catch-up ! AESA, TVC, etc getting onto the Typhoon are only distant plans ... while the rest have it right now...that does make them superior.


And yet what about the stuff that Typhoon has that none of the opposition has? Again you simply disregard all this. Clearly you don't particularly want the Typhoon for India, and that is fine. No problem. But don't try to dress it up as an impartial comparison when it is clearly anything but as many of the 'faults' you are finding appear to have nbeen pulled from thin air.


Agin, no offense taken at anything you have said, it is simply your opinion and I don't work for Eurofighter


[edit on 7-12-2005 by waynos]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:39 PM
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I think one thing both of you are not considering is the long term certainty of these products. If the Europeans or the Americans get the contract the Indians would have to play ball their way to keep all those planes flying but with the russians, they dont need to do anything except pay them and maybe not interfere in chechneya. The Europeans and the US would expect India to follow the Western path on international policy and given the Indian track record they arent likely to play that game for very long. The Indians are known to be unpredictable/uncontrollable and that is one of the main reasons that the US and India both two very large democratic nations with similar ideology are so far apart internationally. Regardless of the recent US-India courting.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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You have a point there but whats with this need to 'control' foreign powers? Not only your post here, but also one in the Iran thread too. It strikes me as a manifestation of 'American Imperialism' that other countries are always complaining about. Maybe they have a point after all? I think India has less to worry about on that score with Europe than with America, but I agree that it is hardly a concern at all with Russia.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
You say there is no equivalent to the R-172 ramject powered super BVRAAM, well, I don't knoe the specifics of this missile but you do realise that the Meteor is a ramjet powered BVRAAM don't you?


Well, the range of the R-172 is far greater than what the Meteor has to offer. The R-172 super BVRAAM has a range of about 400km !!

India can have both the Meteor and the R-172 if it so desires.


One tack you use is confusing me, you say that the Typhoons weapons are inferior but when I named them you simply say India could buy them anyway. I'm sure India could, but that doesn't change the fact that they are Typhoon weapons.

Well surely the same weapon are equally effective ... perhaps you misunderstood me.

What i meant the planes that India can choose (like the Mig-35) can have Typhoon weapons + additional latest Israeli and French that the typhoon cannot have + Russian weapons that the typhoon wont have


I don't doubt that the weapons offered by France, Russia and the USA are superb at what they do, but there is nothing to say they are better than anything the Typhoon might carry, whereas you say they are inferior. That is my only objection here.


Clarification posted ^^


And yet what about the stuff that Typhoon has that none of the opposition has? Again you simply disregard all this.

i cant think of anything beyond supercruise.


Clearly you don't particularly want the Typhoon for India, and that is fine.

Well i'd pick a typhoon to take on an F-15 anyday ... but IMHO the Typhoon is not the best choice for India...and the Tyhpoon package that India can have IMHO is far from the best ... IMHO the Mig-35 is the logical choice.

However, the British lobby in India has its roots deeply rooted in the core of Indian decision making bodies...and the Tyhpoon deal might be clinched just like the Hawk deal when the Mig-AT and the L-159B were the front runners and the Hawk was even almost rejected by the IAF evaluators.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



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