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UK Now Most Violent Developed Nation in the World

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posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by stumason
There he is, sitting in the states, fearing those Terr'ists or Ay-rabs, clutching his gun close to his side because he claims he needs it for self defence and he has the gaul to say we are a more violent society?


Oh, so you were brainwashed by the Michael Moore movies? Well, good for you! Strong opinions, after all, boost ego and improve mental health, so I am glad you ate up his lies.

How you can you guys make such a point about the violence here in the US and then call him paranoid, make fun of him for wanting to protect himself? Which is it? Are we a violent bloodthirsty nation or not?

You know, I am starting to be convinced that you are right! Brits should not own guns. There seems to be enough of you over there who go off their rockers. You know, the only things I remember about my very brief trip to your country was that there was pidgin crap everywhere and within a minute being outside the airport a saw 3 people pissing on the street. Didn’t see any violence while there, but everybody was probably out at a soccer game beating the crap out of each other or something.

I am with you, my British friends! No guns for Brits!!!

Besides, you would have to pass an Andy Law: Everyone gets one bullet in his shirt pocket, just so we don’t have any gun-phobes over there allowing their weapons to walk across the room or leap out of their hands and shoot them in foot. I can also imagine that your youth population would go down, from all the people who get nervous around a gun (because guns want to kill you) and are to scared to learn how to use it properly and accidentally shoot their children in the face (something that almost never happens in our gun-culture, because we know how to operate them.)

Anyway, I'm with you guys; keep guns out of British hands!


To be completely honest, we dont want Yanks like you here either! You clearly have absolutely no idea from your view of england out the back window of your taxi what it is really like but thats not really surprising, how many Yanks have any clue what the world outside Yankland is like anyway.

We dont want guns because they are completely pointless, they are designed for one thing only and that is to kill people.

I support Guns for americans, you keep killing each other! It means there is one less to join the army and murder brown children.




posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 08:41 AM
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Originally posted by arnold_vosloo
The problem is you yanks simply can't understand anything other than justice down the barrel of a gun and never will.

You are absolutely correct, and I appreciate the compliment. You walk up to any young woman with a broken jaw, a bruised face and child she didn’t ask for in her belly and ask her if she could go back and strap a gun to her waist that day and you know what the answer will be. Justice down the barrel of gun? You’re damn strait.

BTW, your little "just down the barrel of a gun" phrase may sound appalling to those who share the same momyfied, I’ve seen to many movies and never actually picked one up gun-fear ignorance as you do, but it wont work on anyone who isn’t afraid of a little piece of plastic and steel.




Also I though you Yanks consider the Un a corrupt and useless organisation?
You actually thought that all 300 million Americans were anti-UN? Do you think that all 300,000,000 Americans think the same thing? You need to get of the house (or country) more.



I can walk through any parts of my local towns and cities after dark without any fear of attack.
So can I, due to my belief in justice down the barrel of a gun. I can even take my girls with me! My 10 year old shoots well, and my 7 year old can handle a .22 pistol
!!! After all, if I am going to have guns lying all over the house, they may as well be able to stand with me if need be.


The simple fact is that crime is dropping in every report issued int he past few years. Yes there is an increase in violent crime in this same reports but the number of actual crimes are no more than they have ever been.
So, in a discussion about violent crime in the UK, your position is that violent crime is not going up, and "actual" crimes are going down, however violent crimes, which are not actual crimes, are on the rise? Do you even understand that?


It's just than more crimes are reported

Yeah, because more crimes are being committed! Makes sense, no?


and more crimes are now classified as violent crime than before.
So what are you saying, that your government was hiding its violent crime rate by not properly classifying violent crimes?



We discuss violent crime, gun death, rape, murder, children dying and war and you make your little laughing face not once but 8 times, as if you get some sort of twisted pleasure from all this? Yeah, and we are sick for wanting to protect our families. You need help.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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So can I, due to my belief in justice down the barrel of a gun. I can even take my girls with me! My 10 year old shoots well, and my 7 year old can handle a .22 pistol !!! After all, if I am going to have guns lying all over the house, they may as well be able to stand with me if need be.


Wait. So you train your children to shoot? And you leave your guns lying all round the house? Well, that definetely shows parenting skills thats for sure.



Yeah, because more crimes are being committed! Makes sense, no?

Well, what about taking into account false accusations? Crimes disproved? People accused of violent crime but found not guilty? A more indepth study would be welcome.

To be quite honest, America have more people. So more die. Why aren't they the worst? Such a bastion of democracy they are.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
Wait. So you train your children to shoot? And you leave your guns lying all round the house? Well, that definetely shows parenting skills thats for sure.


Your knee-jerk reactions are insulting and irresponsible.

Why? Why is that bad parenting? Oh, it must be the 21 children per year who are accidentally killed by a firearm in our 300,000,000 person society. My children do not have to play with their firearms, because they are not some mystery. Do you hide kitchen knifes from children? If you did, and made some big deal over them, they would seek them out. Guns are common in my home, and as such they are just another uninteresting thing around the house to my children.

By teaching my children how to shoot, I am able to teach them how to safely handle guns as well. My children know how to properly clear a weapon as soon as they pick it up, to make sure there are no live rounds in the weapon. If an intruder enters my home while I am gone and makes it past my (very mean) dogs, they will have to deal with my 10 year old daughter, and trust me she will not hesitate to shoot if that intruder doesn’t listen to her.

I am able to leave my home with the knowledge that my family is safe. I will never put a lock on any of my guns.


Well, what about taking into account false accusations? Crimes disproved? People accused of violent crime but found not guilty? A more indepth study would be welcome.
Oh, now we are going to talk about the numbers behind the numbers? Well, lets talk about the hundreds of thousands of people that deter a violent criminal with a gun without a shot being fired or the percent of all those American shootings that were justifyable.



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
People can 'play' with percentages and stats all they like (what does this term 'violent assault/crime' actually mean, hmmm? ABH, GBH? Hospitalisation? Charges brought? Unknown assailant or know?).

But I note that no-one has taken me up on a comparison between the UK's approx 850 total murder rate annual deaths and the firearm murders of the ten largest US cities alone (never mind the actual numbers for all of the US or the USA's total murder numbers!).

Just as many American's can't get their heads around an unarmed Police service 'losing' only 12 Officers to the gun in 20yrs so it is with the rest of our people in our relatively gun-free society.
Each incident is shocking and tragic but we simply do not have that many incidents.

(and a link to the study you are commenting upon would be nice, Winchester)

.......oh, and as for 'apathetic'?
If you mean when are 'the people' going to start rising up to demand they can be armed in a similar manner to Americans?

There is absolutely no sign of that whatsoever.

Stop kidding yourself, it isn''t going to happen.

Far too many of us value the benefits of our relatively gun-free society and want to keep it that way.


[edit on 24-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]


Yet you play with numbers all the time when they suit you. Hmmmmmmmmm.

I have alot of British friends who have told me that walking through New York City was far less stressful and dangerous than walking through say, Wolverhampton, Tottenham, or any place else they live.

My husband, who is British, has told me often during his stay here how calm and civilized the streets are here. We are moving back to England on Monday because of business he must attend to, but he has told me the violence is insane. We have roamed some of the worse parts of Seattle together, yet he was quite surprised he was never attacked or threatened.

I was surprised too. I always thought the Uk was supposed to be more "civilized" than we are.

But I shall agree with other posters. Gun ownership tends to make people alot more polite. The things people over there have told me happen, like random beatings and filmed attacks are less likely to happen here. After all, the due you go happy slapping on could be packing some serious heat. Works for me.

My husband said the sentancing there is too lax, too many unenforced or ridiculous laws, and youth out of control contribute heavily.



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Yet you play with numbers all the time when they suit you. Hmmmmmmmmm.


- Well if you think I've been 'playing' with the numbers and want to take up a specific point (as opposed to just making an unsubstantiated accusation) I'll happily debate and stand over what I've said.

Unfortunately some want to turn this into the usual dreary bashing the gun-free UK and 'pissing contest'.
That isn't where I am coming from at all but I will contest wrong and inaccurate facts.

I can and have provided links to dispute this nonsensical portrait of the UK some are trying to show.

The fact is that despite arms being relatively freely available there are, contrary to previous claims, higher rates of murder, assault and rape in the US (the incidence of murder is about three times that of ours, rape is about twice that of the UK, assault is much closer but still higher in the US).

www.nationmaster.com...

Does this mean murder, rape or assault is common in the UK?
No.

Equally it doesn't mean it is 'common' in the USA either.

It isn't perfection here (who ever said it was, anywhere?) but I hope you enjoy a happy and hassle-free stay in the UK.

[edit on 27-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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I dislike guns. They are used for killing, nothing else. As it is in your constitutional right to have them, then have them, but we Brits will not. Why? Because guns breed guns. You can mention all the sorts of gun control and all that, but it won't make society safer. In Scotland, we are now trying to ban air guns because of a death of a toddler getting shot in the head by a drunken 27 year old.
news.bbc.co.uk...

I severely doubt that there is much of an argument to have guns in Britain. We are violent but you are too. Don't kid yourselves and pass judgement on us. Plus the normality that seems to follow the death of officers on duty in the U.S. seems almost common place. No outcrys or anything. Whilst in Britain, Sharon Beshenivsky causes wide-spread condemnation and warrents front page news. Let deaths as these always shock and not become as commonplace as in the U.S.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
I dislike guns. They are used for killing, nothing else.


You really should try watching the Olympics sometime, or going Skeet shooting, or maybe deer hunting (oops - that's now classed as murder in the UK).

As for guns breeding guns, you have a gun law that confiscated all legally owned pistols in the UK, and yet by the government's own statistics there are now more guns in Britain than before the law was passed - so the statistics would appear to show that anti gun laws, in fact, breed guns. An equally ridiculous notion.

As a resident of the most violent western nation (Scotland) according to the UN study, you may not WANT guns, but it sounds like you NEED them.

How about the trial introduction of lawfully owned firearms in one problem Scottish city, do you think crime would go up, or down. There is plenty of precedent to show what would happen.



posted on Dec, 1 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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That depends on a number of factors Win. Who would be using these guns? How would it be used responsibly? Would it really keep crime down? Would a police officer willfully shoot at someone who is carrying a knife or is running away? Would they hesitate? I don't know to be quite honest. It perhaps should be more thought out, and to see if the postives outweigh the negatives. And then give it a trial period in some bad area. However, it should be pointed out, that some nutjobs like to attempt suicide from cop. I just remembered a story when that almost happened.
news.bbc.co.uk...

A trial period might be a good idea, instead of a complete arming of the police. See if it could actually work. I'm not sure it'd work, but I'm also not sure if it would fail either. It's evens really.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:03 AM
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well i live in a high crime area, and i have had friends be killed with knifes etc. i think having guns around would make it worse. there are enough B-B Guns around now and they cause enough damage let alone real gun.

even if the government do give officers guns there will be a leak and the fire arms will get to the public/thugs etc.
its scary enough to walk in the dark now let alone with guns roaming my streets.

oni x x



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 03:35 AM
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Originally posted by Oni x x
well i live in a high crime area, and i have had friends be killed with knifes


Would they still be alive today if they had a gun to point at an attacker?


its scary enough to walk in the dark now let alone with guns roaming my streets.


So it scary walking around the street, even with total gun control? Would you be as scared if you had a gun on your belt? The criminals would sure be more scared of you, that’s for sure.

It must be nice for your criminals to have a government guarantee that their victim and the law enforcement that will respond will be unable to defend themselves.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 03:59 AM
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maybe... but as i said a knife is dangerous enough and can cause death so one point of a gun and your dead in an instant. that's the difference.

and no i wouldn't feel safer to be honest if i had a "gun in my belt".

if everyone had them instead of fighting (physical) there would be shoot outs.
there is enough gang rivalry without giving them dangerous weapons.

and as in other countries innocent children and passers by would be hurt or even killed.

oni x x

[edit on 16-12-2005 by Oni x x]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 04:50 AM
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Originally posted by Oni x x
if everyone had them instead of fighting (physical) there would be shoot outs.
there is enough gang rivalry without giving them dangerous weapons.


Funny, but here in the states we see the opposite of what you are saying.

Go to an area in the US where guns are not common and you have to worry about shootouts, gangs, and getting mugged.

If you go to some of the areas where guns are very common and everyone has one, you are more likely to get in a fist fight than a gun fight. Why? An armed populous is a polite populous.

I noticed that when I go to the bad areas of town and I am carrying concealed, I get treated like crap (non-black wearing a suit and driving a nice car, they assume that either I am "the man" or there to buy drugs, but the truth is like the cheap gas and its on the way to work) however when I open carry (cowboy style, in a leg or belt holster like cops for those of you who aren’t used to seeing an armed populace) I get treated better. Is it because they know I won’t be threatened? Possibly. Is fear of the gun? Likely sometimes. Is it that they assume anyone openly displaying a gun can probably cart them off to jail? I think this is most likely. The point is, though, that I get treated better, I don’t walk around in fear, and everyone knows that not only should they not try to rob/harass me, but that I probably will afford them the same respect the piece of steel on my side demands of them.


and as in other countries innocent children and passers by would be hurt or even killed.


The myth that this is common in the US is ridiculous. I challenge you to show the real numbers.

Fact is, the accidental death of children by firearms in the US is a rare thing. More children are killed by mop buckets each year than are killed by accidental firearms discharge (less than thirty per year on average in a nation of 300,000,000) and considering how many more homes here have guns than mop buckets, I would say going after guns with all these dangerous mop buckets on the street is psychotic.


[edit on 16-12-2005 by cavscout]



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 10:47 AM
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why did you assume i mean the USA when i said other countries...
I did NOT even mention the blimin US!!.

i mean in general so don't jump down my throat or challenge me when i am only giving my opinion,
i am not saying you were wrong or right i am only expressing MY opinion.

where i live it would make the situation worse.

i can understand the advantages, for instance a mugging you could protect yourself..... but oh wait a minute there is a man with a gun to my head.....
how can i get the gun from my belt or leg in time.... not possible, except in movies.

but in my eyes the disadvantages out weigh the advantages.

oni x x



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

I had the misfortune to spend a week back in the UK in August of this year, and the decline in society is tangible, friends and relatives alike had their own horror stories about violence, graffiti, teenage gangs and drunken immigrants in the local park. Keeping the issue of guns out of this for a second, I'll say this with the best of intentions - you people need to get off your collective rear ends and do something about your country before it's too late, and the first part of that is to recognise that you have a problem, the sad part is that I honestly don't believe that you can.


yep, that is increasingly the reality. Nothing will be done about it though.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by AdamJ

yep, that is increasingly the reality. Nothing will be done about it though.



True enough, and well said AdamJ.

This was just posted by another British member (Zanzibar) in a different thread:



God you Americans have it so good! Here in Blighty, 'Chavs' beat random people in the street up every. single. day. My brothers friend (who is 10) got attacked yesterday with a knife in broad daylight, thankfully he wasn't harmed.


I'm sure there will still be plenty who refuse to believe there's a problem over there.


[edit on 17-12-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
I'm sure there will still be plenty who refuse to believe there's a problem over there.



I think it is a very dangerous mix of arrogance, stubbornness and ignorance. Granted, if the British people want to be owned by the criminal element that is their problem. Based on the mindset of the British people I have met so far, I would say that even if honest citizens began to defend themselves effectively those honest citizens would be blamed for Gun violence instead of honored for defending themselves and others while making their nation a safer place.



BTW, the person that tagged this thread "here we go again" is in violation of the tagging rules, and this tag should be removed.





[edit on 17-12-2005 by cavscout]



posted on Dec, 18 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
I think it is a very dangerous mix of arrogance, stubbornness and ignorance. Granted, if the British people want to be owned by the criminal element that is their problem. Based on the mindset of the British people I have met so far, I would say that even if honest citizens began to defend themselves effectively those honest citizens would be blamed for Gun violence instead of honored for defending themselves and others while making their nation a safer place.


I would call this an accurate assessment of the current situation, and I used to live over there so I feel my opinion is evidenced.

Watching the UK attempt to deal with their violence issue is like watching an old movie, you know how it will end, but you watch anyway. Left Wing politicians still believe that you can legislate your way out of trouble, their thinking on social issues like these is totally moribund. They tried it with the handgun ban, and in spite of a 100% compliance rate (as audited by the GAO) for handgun turn ins, handgun crime has increased significantly. They are trying the same thing with Behaviour Orders (or whatever pointless name they give them) for violent, criminalistic teenagers and young adults, where you give a Chav a piece of paper telling it that it must behave from now on - it won't make a darned bit of difference.

What's important to me is that we in the US learn from the situation in the UK, and ensure that it never happens here. With our shared history and common social structure that risk is very real and we must do everything we can to ensure that our society does not degenerate in the same way.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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these are the recent headlines from one borough in london:

Bullets sprayed at door of house Dec 16 2005

Drugs pair fought like dogs with tragic junkie, court told Dec 16 2005

Teen shot in leg outside takeaway shop Dec 16 2005

£6m heroin smuggler is jailed for 20 years Dec 14 2005

Blitz on transport crime Dec 9 2005
TRANSPORT cops this week blitzed crime hot spots, targeting muggers and yobs in the run-up to Christmas.

Passengers watched the knife go in Dec 9 2005

Pupil stabbed at school Dec 9 2005

Star gets happy-slapped Dec 9 2005

Brave cop's leg shattered saving victim Dec 6 2005

Gun blasted out of crook's hand Dec 6 2005


I think you can get the picture. I go to a differnt borough and i get the same stuff...

Happy slappers face jail terms
Dec 16 2005

A FERAL gang of "happy slappers" who stamped a hero barman to death so they could film the attack on their mobile phones are facing years behind bars.

David Morley, 37, who survived the Admiral Duncan pub bombing in Soho in 1999, was told, "Pose for the camera" by a 14-year-old girl seconds before the mob pounced.

He was repeatedly beaten before the girl kicked Mr Morley's head like a football as he lay helpless on the ground.

In an all-night rampage of violence around the South Bank the gang staged five separate attacks on eight people just to film them on camera.

The Old Bailey heard how the gang had been attacking people at random for months without any fear of being caught by police.


Dad cradles dying son
Dec 16 2005

A TEARFUL father cradled his dying son after hooded thugs battered him outside their family home.

The frantic dad heard screams outside and ran to investigate - only to find his son slumped unconscious.

Cops think victim Anthony May, 35, was bludgeoned with a blunt instrument.

His anguished dad, John, made desperate attempts to resuscitate him outside their home in Dorset Road, Kennington, as the killers sprinted off into the night.

Despite frantic efforts to revive him, tragic Anthony died in hospital less than an hour later from horrendous head injuries.


Police are scared to do anything, politicians hide from it/ignore it and BBC london news wont touch it.
Multi-Cultural Britain

[edit on 19-12-2005 by AdamJ]



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
I dislike guns. They are used for killing, nothing else. As it is in your constitutional right to have them, then have them, but we Brits will not. Why? Because guns breed guns. You can mention all the sorts of gun control and all that, but it won't make society safer.


Um... Guns breed guns? What the heck are you talking about? And um... Guns can't be used for sport and self protection? Why not?

Lastly, why wouldn't a "hooligan" think twice about filming a beating if he thought there just might be a chance he would die while doing it?

If some "chap," "hooligan," or "punk" tried anything like that on me he would end up staring down the barrel of this...

I've been licensed to carry one of these now for about 8 years and have never once had to use it. Why? You tell me...





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