UK Now Most Violent Developed Nation in the World

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posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 12:36 AM
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I just got through reading an article on a recently published 2005 UN study of violence in developed countries.

The results, in order of most violent developed countries in the World were:

1. Scotland
2. England
3. Wales

The study, which examined rates of violence in the World's 21 most developed countries found that more than 2,000 Scots are the victims of a violent assault every week, 10 times those actually reported to the police. The study also found that Scots are 3 times as likely to face a violent attack as Americans, while England and Wales had double the American rate.

I searched the UN website but could only find violent crime statistics for the year 2000, and those were bad enough (www.unece.org...) - if anyone happens to find a link for the main report let me know.

I'm afraid the sad state the UK finds itself in is not all the result of sensationalist reporting by the Daily Mail.

Is anyone over there doing anything about it, or is it just the usual apathy.




posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 03:58 AM
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Someone said once that an armed populace is a polite populace; it would seem that our Brit friends are proving that.

Why not hit someone if you get mad? Well, in the US the answer is because it is highly likely (at least in some of the less crime ridden areas of our nation) that the person you are about to attack or someone in the vicinity has a gun on them, and if you follow through, you may just be staring at the wrong end of it. Keeps us nice.

Brits, on the other hand, are guaranteed by their government that the person they are about to assault is unarmed and therefore less likely to defend himself.

How simple is that to understand? You don’t hit or holdup people who have guns in their waistband!


PS - Hate to say it friends, but many of us blodthirsty gun hugging Americans told you so years ago.


[edit on 24-11-2005 by cavscout]



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Someone said once that an armed populace is a polite populace; it would seem that our Brit friends are proving that.

I thought that law was repealed recently and they could have some type of firearm again? Guess not...



PS - Hate to say it friends, but many of us blodthirsty gun hugging Americans told you so years ago.

I must say.... Amen to that... Maybe the people trying to get us to relenquish our weapons of personal protection haven't seen this info? Or if they have think that America can better police the criminals that keep their guns?



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Brits, on the other hand, are guaranteed by their government that the person they are about to assault is unarmed and therefore less likely to defend himself.


Oh yes, because you can't get a firearm licence in the United Kingdom, people do not have guns illegally, you can't own a knife, so on and so fourth...

Do not try to claim there are no firearms or that there are no legal firearms, because you know that is a joke. The Government can't guarantee anything - they just try to do such a thing.

---

Earlier this year, about 2months ago I posted a report similar to this. It seems that the United Kingdom is getting worse and worse by the year. Sad fact of life for those who live here, however I guess good for me since it'll keep me employed.

I guess nobody bothered to look at Finland and the gun ban they had there? Last I checked we have the same level of firearms violence as we did in 1993. That doesn't make it seem as though the ban is working. Maybe that is just me though?



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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People can 'play' with percentages and stats all they like (what does this term 'violent assault/crime' actually mean, hmmm? ABH, GBH? Hospitalisation? Charges brought? Unknown assailant or know?).

But I note that no-one has taken me up on a comparison between the UK's approx 850 total murder rate annual deaths and the firearm murders of the ten largest US cities alone (never mind the actual numbers for all of the US or the USA's total murder numbers!).

Just as many American's can't get their heads around an unarmed Police service 'losing' only 12 Officers to the gun in 20yrs so it is with the rest of our people in our relatively gun-free society.
Each incident is shocking and tragic but we simply do not have that many incidents.

(and a link to the study you are commenting upon would be nice, Winchester)

.......oh, and as for 'apathetic'?
If you mean when are 'the people' going to start rising up to demand they can be armed in a similar manner to Americans?

There is absolutely no sign of that whatsoever.

Stop kidding yourself, it isn''t going to happen.

Far too many of us value the benefits of our relatively gun-free society and want to keep it that way.


[edit on 24-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 11:50 AM
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Most Voilent?

how come ive never been attacked or had a violent crime against me?



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 03:42 PM
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Try living in London. I heard the crime is quite bad down there. In Scotland, it is also very dangerous. You know it's queer. Do any of you other Brits have any problems with Chavs? Up here, we call them "neds". They are scum. Sorry, but it's true. They drink this tonic wine, called Buckfast. It's made by monks and is a health drink, but neds abuse it, and get a buzz. They don't carry illegal firearms, but they carry knives. Scratch that. They do carry knives but they can carry swords, axes, golf clubs, baseball bats, metal baseball bats, glass bottles as well. See that sort of thing around Glasgow. Especially at night. Hell, I think I remember watching a show on Channel 5 on such things. David MacIntyre? The Toughest Towns in Britain? Anyway, Glasgow is dangerous. Gangs of neds roam the streets looking for someone to "chib". Yep, we have come so far.

But Belfast and London beat Glasgow, with murders per capita. If I remember correctly.

[edit on 24/11/05 by MacDonagh]



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 04:18 PM
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MacDonagh, let's try and keep this civil please.

The area I grew up in was bad for crime, in fact many places I still visit is bad. However, crime tends to be linkted to other social and economic factors. This whole N.E.D/Chav/Gang culture isn't helping it, the idea that being part of a 'gang' is cool isn't in itself a bad idea, but more so the in-fighting that there is in these groups.

In my area, I find it rather amusing. Each park in the town is taken up by a different sub-culture, you have the Asians, Chavs, Goths, etc, about 6 or 7 groups these days and every other week they end up getting into a fight. But they are kids, I got into a bit of trouble with a few not too long ago because one thought he'd mouth off at me and I don't take it. They'll grow out of it though, mostly once they are on the recieving end of the beating...

And infinite, this is because I get your share and most of this forums.



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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Sorry pal. But some of the bad things that happen to people up here is quite beyond belief.

Some of these "gangs" do hurt normal folk. Not sure what it's like down your area, but it's pretty bad up here.



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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To me it seems the UK is number one in Random Vioence. People passing out on Busses then getting beat up while somebody films it on their mobile is getting popular. Damn Chavs!!!



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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These responses may be anecdotal, but there is a definite and increasingly serious downward spiral in British society. Of course guns aren't necessarily the answer, and yes murder rates are higher in the US, but I have yet to see a better solution than to empower a populace with the ability and more importantly the right to defend themselves from violent attack.

As for the link Pinkey, I don't have one, the report is however referenced in this month's "Womans Outlook" magazine for what it's worth.

There is a rumor that the US State Department may once again place the UK on its "Violent Nation" list as it did a few years ago to much gnashing of teeth and frothing at the mouth on the part of the UK government, and warn US tourists about street crime in the UK, especially London.

I confess to having a morbid fascination with the UK's decline. Liberals simply don't understand people or human nature, and watching them attempt to legislate their way out of trouble is as amusing as it is futile. Case in point, the handgun ban in the UK was designed to reduce gun crime, and of course, as all us stupid Americans knew, gun crime would increase. How do we know that, well because it happened in California, Washington DC and Chicago when handguns were effectively removed from private ownership or heavily restricted. Then a minimum 5 year sentence was imposed for illegal firearms possession, geez I thought that one would make a BIG difference, imagine my shock when gun crime went up - again.

I take no pleasure from watching my former countrymen suffer because of apathy and ignorance but I do enjoy watching any left wing government have its ideals be proven wrong time and time again.

You can expect more laws and court imposed restrictions on thugs, it won't make any difference.

You must excuse me, I'm taking my Browning Hi Power for a walk to the edge of the desert to watch the sun set over my beloved gun crazy nation.

You have my sympathy.



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Why not hit someone if you get mad? Well, in the US the answer is because it is highly likely (at least in some of the less crime ridden areas of our nation) that the person you are about to attack or someone in the vicinity has a gun on them, and if you follow through, you may just be staring at the wrong end of it. Keeps us nice.

ANd if that person is not armed, there is a good chance thye will call the police on you and have you charged with assault for things like spitting on the sidewalk or throwing a punch (vs. actaully hitting someone.)
I'll bet the US is the most litigious country in the world.



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
People can 'play' with percentages and stats all they like
Wanna know who says that? People who are tired of hearing that the numbers are stacked against them, but have no answer.



But I note that no-one has taken me up on a comparison between the UK's approx 850 total murder rate annual deaths and the firearm murders of the ten largest US cities alone (never mind the actual numbers for all of the US or the USA's total murder numbers!).
Bud, you have stated the same type of argument before, in another thread about your violent nation's control freak government and said government making grandma a criminal if she wants to protect herself from thugs on the way to the store.

I answered you last time you made the same "and no body answered me" whine as an argument and do you know you did? You never replied in that thread again. You ran away. Don’t make me embarace you, sminkeypinkey, you know I can.


Just as many American's can't get their heads around an unarmed Police service 'losing' only 12 Officers to the gun in 20yrs so it is with the rest of our people in our relatively gun-free society.
I'm sorry, didn’t you say that numbers and stats. were useless because they could be played with? Let’s play with this one. I noticed you slip the "to the gun" in there. So just how many have you lost to other violence? Bats, knives things of that nature. If you are trying to state that gun crime is not a major factor simply because your police can often do nothing but run when facing an armed criminal then I feel bad for you and the sorry state of your police departments. That’s just sad.


(and a link to the study you are commenting upon would be nice, Winchester)
Why, the several that we have already argued in the past weren’t good enough? You got a study that refutes his claim?


If you mean when are 'the people' going to start rising up to demand they can be armed in a similar manner to Americans?

There is absolutely no sign of that whatsoever.
Care to take that back? Maybe you meant to say people you know? I am CERTAIN there are enough people demanding the right to protect themselves to turn your statement into a LIE.




[edit on 24-11-2005 by cavscout]



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Wanna know who says that? People who are tired of hearing that the numbers are stacked against them, but have no answer.


- No.
The answer is people who know the difference between the alarmists who want to talk about a 50%! rise to promote their agenda as opposed, for instance, to openly and clearly referring to a mere increase of, say, 2 to 4.


I answered you last time you made the same "and no body answered me" whine as an argument and do you know you did? You never replied in that thread again.


- That would be because I didn't see your reply.

I've looked where I thought I'd said that (in the 'Is the UK gun ban working' thread) and I can't see it.

Please provide the link to it and I'll return.


You ran away.


- Don't flatter yourself; I simply didn't see it.

If you'll provide a link or info on where it is I'll look again.


Don’t make me embarace you, sminkeypinkey, you know I can.


- Actually I think you just embarrassed yourself a little there 'bud'.


I'm sorry, didn’t you say that numbers and stats. were useless because they could be played with?


- Actually what I referred to was people who "play with percentages".
Quoting the numbers in full (ie the bald figure and and % is fine, honest and ok by me.


I noticed you slip the "to the gun" in there. So just how many have you lost to other violence? Bats, knives things of that nature.


- Fine but I can''t see how it particularly 'helps' your case at all.

The number is 36 Officers in 20 years.

How does that compare with where you are, hmmm?


36 officers murdered in England, Scotland and Wales since 1985 (excluding Northern Ireland)

news.bbc.co.uk...

3 were beaten to death
10 were stabbed to death
11 were shot to death
12 were run over and killed by a motor vehicle

(thanks to Leveller for the breakdown figs)


If you are trying to state that gun crime is not a major factor simply because your police can often do nothing but run when facing an armed criminal then I feel bad for you and the sorry state of your police departments. That’s just sad.


- Well if you could just try and quit the attempts at personal baiting here you might care to consider that rather than this simply being my position on the matter it is also the position of the most informed and 'expert' people at the sharp end of this.

ie the British Police themselves.


A 2003 Police Federation survey found 80 per cent of officers opposed, a similar figure to that found in the Federation's previous survey in 1995. However, 80 per cent of officers wanted more officers trained to use firearms.

www.politics.co.uk...$2120136.htm


Why, the several that we have already argued in the past weren’t good enough?


- What are you on about?
Which previous links are relevant to this claim, hmmm?


You got a study that refutes his claim?


- Er, hang on.
The way it works is that Winchester made the post and claims so it is hardly unreasonable to ask him to provide a link to substantiate and go along with those claims.


Care to take that back? Maybe you meant to say people you know? I am CERTAIN there are enough people demanding the right to protect themselves to turn your statement into a LIE.


- Well obviously there are some people who take that view in the UK (and I never did say there were not).

But if you think there is a substantive number of people so as to be significant and effecting pressure our political parties to move this way then you are kidding yourself.

So, no, I won't take that back.
'The people' show absolutely no serious sign of calling for guns to be 'legalised' in the UK (in fact quite the contrary, the manifesto pledge by the Labour party proposing the banning of guns was part of the platform under which they swept to power in 1997 by a landslide).

That is not a lie and claiming the contrary is.

[edit on 25-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
'The people' show absolutely no serious sign of calling for guns to be 'legalised' in the UK (in fact quite the contrary, the manifesto pledge by the Labour party proposing the banning of guns was part of the platform under which they swept to power in 1997 by a landslide).


The problem is that you, much like the rest of the population is exhibiting that oh so British trait of criticising everything whilst doing nothing.

Your lack of inertia and constant desire to be on the back foot with this issue is breathtaking. A report is issued by the UN showing Britain to be the most violent developed nation "show me a link" is the best you can do, fellow posters tell you of their violent encounters "anecdotal, never happened to me", a police woman is shot and murdered "but we still have low rates of gun crime", gun crime statistics soar by almost 200% "oh you can manipulate statistics to show what you want".

Yup, you're British all right.

I had the misfortune to spend a week back in the UK in August of this year, and the decline in society is tangible, friends and relatives alike had their own horror stories about violence, graffiti, teenage gangs and drunken immigrants in the local park. Keeping the issue of guns out of this for a second, I'll say this with the best of intentions - you people need to get off your collective rear ends and do something about your country before it's too late, and the first part of that is to recognise that you have a problem, the sad part is that I honestly don't believe that you can.



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 01:40 PM
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For non-Englandishers, here's an intersting page on
UK Trash Culture, which discusses 'chavs' and the like. In the US these guys are roughly equivalent to and called 'punks' amoung the older generation and 'hoodies/hoodrats' amoung the younger.


Trash Culture is specifically British. It is the mainstream culture across all of the central lands of the United Kingdom. It is characterized by binge drinking, smoking, stupidity, the active hatred of intelligence & responsible behaviour, fashion-conscious youths, ignorant uneducated adults, misbehaviour at school, petit crime, organized crime, violence, homophobia, racism and xenophobia. It's greatest social monuments are pub culture and football.
[emphasis added]



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
The problem is that you, much like the rest of the population is exhibiting that oh so British trait of criticising everything whilst doing nothing.


- In what way?
What did I just "criticise"?

I don't agree with your and other's claims, I'm saying so and I'm posting up facts to indicate exactly why.
I thought that was the point of this place?


A report is issued by the UN showing Britain to be the most violent developed nation "show me a link" is the best you can do


- Er, now hang on a minute.

I can provide you with links showing serious crime rates in the US far higher than those of the UK (for instance - www.nationmaster.com... ).

So, excuse me if I don't get carried away just on your say so and ask to see a little evidence for your claims.


fellow posters tell you of their violent encounters "anecdotal, never happened to me"


- No-one has ever said unpleasant things have not happened to people (hell, I've had a few nasty encounters in my life) but nevertheless it's hardly a basis for making sweeping statements about the national situation here (especially when the stats do not agree with your claims).


a police woman is shot and murdered "but we still have low rates of gun crime"


- Well I would have thought it pretty obvious.
Can you not see that that statement about our low rates of gun crime is not actually incompatible with the sad story of that Police woman.


gun crime statistics soar by almost 200% "oh you can manipulate statistics to show what you want".


- That is also true, some are only too happy to use stats selectively and totally out of context (which is usually what happens with % comparisons).
Here are the UK gun crime stats.


Note the replica figures.

36 (now 37) Police officers killed in 20yrs (11 - now 12 by the gun).

Here are the latest murder figures I can find


There were 853 murders, man slaughters and infanticides in England and Wales in the 2003/2004 period. That's out of a population of 52 million.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/hosb1004chap123.pdf

Those figure compare well with many countries in outright numerical terms and proportionately.
We simply don't have the level of problem you claim we do.


I had the misfortune to spend a week back in the UK in August of this year, and the decline in society is tangible, friends and relatives alike had their own horror stories about violence, graffiti, teenage gangs and drunken immigrants in the local park.


- Every generation seems to get to a point where it gets scared of the future.
It's currently chavs & hoodies, it used to be punk rockers, greasers, teds, mods etc etc.

Sadly, it's nothing new.

Certain areas of crime have risen, that is true, but nevertheless that is, obviously, a comparison with ourselves historically.
The relevant context being previous rates that were good when compared internationally and which are still pretty good when compared internationally.

Like I said, sorry but the stats just don't support your claims that crime is escalating 'out of control' (in fact they show crime falling overall)


www.crimestatistics.org.uk...

the truth is that 'our' serious crime rates not only compare very well with the (armed) USA but we don't also have the added injurious monstrosity of freely available arms.


Keeping the issue of guns out of this for a second, I'll say this with the best of intentions - you people need to get off your collective rear ends and do something about your country before it's too late, and the first part of that is to recognise that you have a problem, the sad part is that I honestly don't believe that you can.


- I don't doubt your sincerity.

But, I'm sorry, I think you are very wrong and the figures show you to be wrong.



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 07:37 PM
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Sminkey, I don't know why yolu bother. We know Winchester has this agenda about making Britian either look like a bunch of fools who cannot defend themselves or on the flip side, making it out that the Nation is going to pot.

Neither is true. Yes, violent crime exists, but to be honest, it exists everywhere and the US is by far a more violent place. Russia is a developed nation as is by far alot more violent and corrupt.

Take this WPC's murder for instance. Here it is front page news for a week, nationwide manhunt for the killers and national outpouring of grief.

That is for 1 woman officer.

Then take the US; a cop dies every day, at least, and the most attention it gets is a reference on the 8th page of the daily rag. It has become the norm, almost acceptable or at the least expected.

Personally, I think Winchester might as well stay out of the UK for good. If it's that bad, then he won't have a problem with it and we don't want him here anyway.

There he is, sitting in the states, fearing those Terr'ists or Ay-rabs, clutching his gun close to his side because he claims he needs it for self defence and he has the gaul to say we are a more violent society?

BS...utter BS....

Winchester, why do you have this constant need to belittle the UK? Is it because no one here likes you? Have you got some sort of disorder that makes you post false and misleading information, distorting the facts to fit your agenda? I suggest you go and see someone about your rampant paranoia and British-phobia.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
There he is, sitting in the states, fearing those Terr'ists or Ay-rabs, clutching his gun close to his side because he claims he needs it for self defence and he has the gaul to say we are a more violent society?


Oh, so you were brainwashed by the Michael Moore movies? Well, good for you! Strong opinions, after all, boost ego and improve mental health, so I am glad you ate up his lies.

How you can you guys make such a point about the violence here in the US and then call him paranoid, make fun of him for wanting to protect himself? Which is it? Are we a violent bloodthirsty nation or not?

You know, I am starting to be convinced that you are right! Brits should not own guns. There seems to be enough of you over there who go off their rockers. You know, the only things I remember about my very brief trip to your country was that there was pidgin crap everywhere and within a minute being outside the airport a saw 3 people pissing on the street. Didn’t see any violence while there, but everybody was probably out at a soccer game beating the crap out of each other or something.

I am with you, my British friends! No guns for Brits!!!

Besides, you would have to pass an Andy Law: Everyone gets one bullet in his shirt pocket, just so we don’t have any gun-phobes over there allowing their weapons to walk across the room or leap out of their hands and shoot them in foot. I can also imagine that your youth population would go down, from all the people who get nervous around a gun (because guns want to kill you) and are to scared to learn how to use it properly and accidentally shoot their children in the face (something that almost never happens in our gun-culture, because we know how to operate them.)

Anyway, I'm with you guys; keep guns out of British hands!



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 07:50 AM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
I had the misfortune to spend a week back in the UK in August of this year, and the decline in society is tangible, friends and relatives alike had their own horror stories about violence, graffiti, teenage gangs and drunken immigrants in the local park. Keeping the issue of guns out of this for a second, I'll say this with the best of intentions - you people need to get off your collective rear ends and do something about your country before it's too late, and the first part of that is to recognise that you have a problem, the sad part is that I honestly don't believe that you can.


Were you at the annual Daily Mail readers get together? Absolute rubbish, I've yet to see any more drunken immigrants than the usual drunken brits. The problem is you yanks simply can't understand anything other than justice down the barrel of a gun and never will.

Also I though you Yanks consider the Un a corrupt and useless organisation? Strange how it is when they say something that advances your 'agenda' it suddenly ok!

I can walk through any parts of my local towns and cities after dark without any fear of attack. The Media (specifically the Daily Mail) want to spread the lie that this country is descending into a more violent society or blame it on the immigrants as usual. The simple fact is that crime is dropping in every report issued int he past few years. Yes there is an increase in violent crime in this same reports but the number of actual crimes are no more than they have ever been. It's just than more crimes are reported and more crimes are now classified as violent crime than before.

Are you seriously trying to claim that britain is a more dangerous place than virtually every US city or Iraq? Here's a newflash.... all major cities in every country is the world have areas where you dont go after dark! I dont see american warplanes bombing the schools and hospitals where I live, I dont see american troops using chemical weapons on my neighbours. I haven't seen anyone kidnapped and beheaded on my local news yet. I dont see US troops murdering women and children in my road...yet....

laughable





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