Spitfire vs P-51

All we know is what they taught us in school.

Who were the teachers?

Well they went to school too?

Who were there teachers?

Well we call them professors?

Where did they learn?

From other professors?

Oh, who taught them?

No one knows but they never had a real job in their lives so we can't figure out how they know how to do anything?

The spitfire was one of the plane designed in the WWII.

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Seekerof,

You have a additude problem..

Your tone wasnt very nice..

Why should he speak in a nice tone about mass murderers?

And what are you?

Maybe you are just a bottom hole?

How can you make out of Jagdflieger pilots mass murderers?

(fighter command..)

But if we were to talk about USAAF / RAF bomber pilots..

..these killed millions.. Germans and Japanese.

Keep your # out of my face kid.

I'm aware that the allies killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in their bombing campaign against germany, the RAF especially, but it's my firm belief that they did it to bring about an end to the systematic mass murder being conducted by the Nazis.

The Luftwaffe also killed hundreds of thousands of people all over Europe, and what's more they did it in the name of Nazism. I don't think Nazis were very nice people, and I'm sure most people will agree with me. Therefore I don't think they deserve to be spoken about in a "nice tone". And there's no need to call me a bottom hole, thats not a nice tone to take.

Luftwaffe jagdflieger.

Defended 3rd Reich against mass murder done by USAAF 8th at day light and RAF by night.

Luftwaffe fighter pilots were the best of the best.

And they did not bomb civilians.. they defended the 'Reichs' aerospace against allied air assaults.

These were fighter pilots.

But surely did Luftwaffe air raids kill hundreds thousands of civilians.. but allied raids killed millions.

But this topic isnt aboutr bombers, this is about fighter pilots.. and i now 'letting' you know that 99% of Luftwaffe pilots werent Nazis.. they just defended their fathers land, like most Germans did.

Even the Waffen-SS combat troops.. most of even them werent criminals, or 'true' Nazis. (Only the Totenkopf division had some death camp guards in it from the SS-VT..)

And surely you must admit that all (USSR, USA, UK, Japan and Germany.. Hungarians also) did crimes against humanity.. and war crimes.

In the German side there just were Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich and the 'people' (these must have been lost souls from hell..) of SS-VT that did the worst crimes.. but these werent the only ones by far.

Like when US troops machine gunned 500 combat troopers from SS-Wiking division that surrendered near Dachau camp.. even though these men had never been at the god damn camp.

And even if they had been (they still werent..) it wouldnt still give them the right to machine gun them.



And also there are many instasses where Germans were wrongly claimed to have commited crimes.. Like in Russia where "civilians" were murdered.. (these being captured Partisans.. infact illegal fighters in many cases..)

Or like the 'massacre' of 72 US soldiers at Malmedy.. (US troopers actually tryed to over power their young captors, but the plan went wrong.. ending up in US troopers trying to over come their captors with bare hands, captors that were armed with fire arms.. and the desperate attemp had a sad end.)

World is a sad place, everybody lies and does criminal things.



Sooner one realizes this, the better one is 'off'.



World really isnt black and white, right or wrong, good and evil..

Infact everybody has 'shades of grey' (some good, some bad..)

Jagdfleiger pilots fought in the name of a gang of criminals who murdered 6 million jews, 1 million communists, gypsies, homosexuals and political opponentes, invaded almost every country in Europe, and oppressed their own population. Luftwaffe fighter pilots flew in attacking roles in the invasions of Europe and Russia. They defended the bombers who attacked civilian targets. They fought in the name of Nazism, and so I think they had some darker "shades of grey" than aliied fighter pilots.

RAF pilots were better than the Luftwaffe's. In the Battle of Britain they were outnumber 3 to 1, and still defeated the Luftwaffe.

Anyway, on topic - The Spitfire was a great aircraft, better than anything the Germans had until the Focke-Wulf was introduced. It was the best fighter plane in the world in 1940, and proved itself with countless victories in combat. I think that it may not have equalled the P-51, but it was certainly more important, as it turned the tide of World War 2 in 1940.

No,

Luftwaffe was the best, had the best pilots.

There is no doubt about it.

And also, only people of Waffen-SS gave a 'oath' to the Nazi-party..

The members of 'conventional' armed forces only gave 'oath' to the German people.. to their families and the father land.



And at the point in which the Germans 'lost' the battle for Britain.. they were actually winning.. they just didnt know it at that moment..

And the 'tide of war' finaly turned only in 1943 in the East.. after the Kursk battle..

And in west after Germanys failed 'Botten Platte' operation in dec 1944 / Jan 1945.



Check your facts..

Originally posted by FULCRUM
No,

Luftwaffe was the best, had the best pilots.

There is no doubt about it.

No doubt about it? I doubt it. Provide some evidence to back this point up. I have no doubt that the Luftwaffe had some very skilled pilots and excellent tactics, but I have to disagree that they were superior outright. The Luftwaffe were losing the war in the air to the RAF by the end of 1941, before the Americans arrived in Europe and before the Russians turned the tide at Stalingrad.

And also, only people of Waffen-SS gave a 'oath' to the Nazi-party..

The members of 'conventional' armed forces only gave 'oath' to the German people.. to their families and the father land.

In a previous post you said that only the Totenkopf division of the SS were true Nazis. All SS men were fanatical Nazis, of "pure aryan blood", they had to be to join.

The conventional German armed forces - Wermacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe - all fought in Hitler's offensive campaigns, conquering sovereign nations. Having a hand in taking over the world in the name of Fascism may not be as bad as being a Nazi, but it was not morally right either. They weren't defending to begin with, they were attacking.

And at the point in which the Germans 'lost' the battle for Britain.. they were actually winning.. they just didnt know it at that moment..

True, the Germans may well have won the Battle of Britain had Hitler not ordered them to attack the civilian population instead of RAF airfields. This allowed British fighter planes numbers to recover. However, when the victory was eventually won, the RAF were still outnumbered.

And the 'tide of war' finaly turned only in 1943 in the East.. after the Kursk battle..

And in west after Germanys failed 'Botten Platte' operation in dec 1944 / Jan 1945.

Check your facts..

When I said the Battle of Britain turned the tide of WW2 in the west, I meant that it stopped the Nazis from eliminating all their enemies in the west so that they could concentrate on the Soviet Union. If Germany had defeated Britain, then her industrial capacity would not be limited by bombing, fighter and bomber aircraft would not be tied up in the west and Operation Barbarossa might have been a success. The Nazis fate was sealed because they started a war on two fronts. Allowing Britain to survive meant that it could be used by the Allies as a springboard to secure a foothold in continental Europe.

Stalingrad and Kursk, you were right in saying, were Germany's first decisive defeats.

You have a worrying tendancy to do your best to defend the Nazis, FULCRUM

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about the Spitfire and P-51, not the Luftwaffe. Do you have an opinion on which aircraft, out of the two, was best?

[Edited on 27-9-2003 by CiderGood_HeadacheBad]

[Edited on 27-9-2003 by CiderGood_HeadacheBad]

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about the Spitfire and P-51, not the Luftwaffe. Do you have an opinion on which aircraft, out of the two, was best?

Ok,

Like i said about the planes allready: i would choose P-51.

And what i said was that the TotenKopf (Deaths head) division was only unit in Waffen-SS that had anything to do with the holocaust and the camps.

(as it was partially made out of former camp guards.)



And btw, Germany wouldnt attacked west ever if it hadnt been the west that declared the war on Germany.

Germany had its 'eyes set for the east'.

They just had to remove the western treath as France and UK declared war on them after 'invasion of Poland'..

Poland was formed on lands stolen from Germany after ww1

There were many good pilots from the allies sides.

One thing that people overlook is that Germany was preparing for the second world war for at least 10 years.

this was not so amongst the allies that had to tool up and get up to speed on the run.

In the end the Germans could only win on more advanced technology which they did have for sometime.

True that numbers were in favour of the allies but the allies had logistical problems that the Germans did not.

In the end it was the Americas and their ability to move fast and take the project on with full commitment that made the difference.

Many critics believe that at the end of the war the allied soldiers were as skilled and as well armed as the Germans. Yes numbers were in favour of the allies but likely what ended the war so fast was blunder strategy on the part of the Germans as a power stuggle ensued at the top and Hitler's increasing instability.

Germany was fully aware that Poland, Britain and France had a mutual assistance pact before they invaded.

Poland was swallowed up by Prussia and Tsarist Russia centuries ago. After World War I it was reformed as a sovereign nation, a homeland for the Polish people who had lived there all along under foreign rule.

You are right in saying that this was unfair on Germany as the province of East Prussia was separated from the rest of Germany when Poland's borders were drawn up. The Treaty of Versailles was ill-thought out and many of it's terms were barbaric. If it hadn't been for the vengeful attitude of the allies after World War I, World War II might never have happened, and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Germany was fully aware that Poland, Britain and France had a mutual assistance pact before they invaded.

Poland was swallowed up by Prussia and Tsarist Russia centuries ago. After World War I it was reformed as a sovereign nation, a homeland for the Polish people who had lived there all along under foreign rule.

You are right in saying that this was unfair on Germany as the province of East Prussia was separated from the rest of Germany when Poland's borders were drawn up. The Treaty of Versailles was ill-thought out and many of it's terms were barbaric. If it hadn't been for the vengeful attitude of the allies after World War I, World War II might never have happened, and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Well said, and i think that we can end this 'talk' to this.

And final note to NEO:

At the end the Allies were way superior.. in weapons, machines, men and even in quality of those in many cases.. as the best of Germans had long before captured or killed by allied armys.



And those German 'veterans' that were still fighting didnt have the numbers or the weapons / fuels needed..



At the end the whole Germany was one giant ruin.



All did their best (exept Hitler that was one gigantic asshole and moron.. murderer..), nobody was innocent.. Allies won.. Axis lost.

I'm with FULCRUM on the issue of WWII. In the end, it was just another power struggle. It just happened that one of the nastiest lost (the one with the smaller moustache). The others were free to carry on their genocidal rampages (the firebombing of Tokyo, Dresden and nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima...)

One of the commander of the USAAF bombing offensives admitted that if the Allies had lost, he would have been one of the ones on trial for war crimes.

The Spit is a classy kite, but I'd get myself a P-51.

[Edited on 27-9-2003 by Lampyridae]

Originally posted by Lampyridae
I'm with FULCRUM on the issue of WWII. In the end, it was just another power struggle. It just happened that one of the nastiest lost (the one with the smaller moustache). The others were free to carry on their genocidal rampages (the firebombing of Tokyo, Dresden and nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima...)

One of the commander of the USAAF bombing offensives admitted that if the Allies had lost, he would have been one of the ones on trial for war crimes.

The Spit is a classy kite, but I'd get myself a P-51.

[Edited on 27-9-2003 by Lampyridae]

True, nobody was innocent as FULCRUM said. Some would say it was a necessary evil, however it has emerged that the Japanese were prepared to surrender before the A-Bombs were dropped. The Americans just dropped them anyway, to demonstrate their power, and to see what would happen.

Every death caused by World War 2 was an atrtocity, it was a conflict that never should have happened. It was really just the decisive battle of the Great War after a lull in conflict, and happened because World War I was never really decisively ended or won.

Anyway, I'd have to go with the Spitfire. It's a beautiful design, an aesthetic masterpiece. It was superbly engineered and built, and it won so many victories, proving itself to be an almost unbeatable fighter.

One of it's greatest victories was in the way it inspired the British people, and became a symbol of defiance against German attacks.