India: Super Hornet or Mig-35?

Originally posted by COWlan
One thing about the MIG-35s are their range, they share the same faults as the original MIG-29s, they are small, light and their wings hold little fuel therefore limiting their range by quite a lot.

If the numbers are right , then the MiG-29 allready out ranges the F-18 E/F by a small amount

OFFTOPIC/

COWlan i know the numbers, probably better than you do... But you're not taking into the account that Chinese growth is eating away materials from other countries. So some sort of an action is inevitable... not now, not in 5 years but maybe in 10-15

but i'll have to admit if Chinese leaders have balls for some good (and dirty business manouvers you could collapse US economy and save your own supply)

Dumping stainles steel to world market and collapsing the price was good move, since chinese government owned factories can take some "hits" unlike their western counterparts,so they drowe a few big competitors into trouble.
Doing the same in Some other markets could devastate the wetern economies.

And please don't let this get into a Flame thread,these are just opinions and my calculations.

/OFFTOPIC
Back to topic:
As for the topic, getting MIGs would probably be a better choise, because the USA isn't going to share their nr1 tech later on, but russians may be forced to sell theirs (in short term, 10 years or so) And Russian tech is usually sold with FULL access to their computer systems unlike the american planes.

Plane vs plane they're pretty much equal..

Can you mount same weapons to both?
Or atleast the same ones India is allready using?

it is righ that f-18is advance but expencive in my money is no matter but commitment from copmany for after sales is must .
india know that US had habit to influacening the policy of another country by stoping after sales of defence products on a crucial movemeant[indo -pak in case just scnerio] that what keep US comapny out contantion of defnce supply for india.

US is not loyal to seller and back stabber every time for india.

but one word about air craft i want to say just go for F-35 nothing less from US.

Hrm, I just found two interesting news articles;



and



Looks like the US is going get that fighter deal after all

Infact I'm willing to bet its not going to be the US deal..
Either Mirage 2005 or MiG29OVT..
If it goes the US way, it'll be due to pure political reasons.

There would have to be a heck of a support package as the Indian fleet is french/russian/british , so the infrastructure isn`t there at all.

I put money on the MiG-29OVT/MiG-35

[edit on 25-11-2005 by Harlequin]

O, just a little news on PAK-FA, a Russia guy on WAFF told me that PAK-FA is in quite a lot of trouble right now, he stated Sukhoi (representing Russia) wants a dual engine 5G plane where the Indians want a single engine plane, they're fighting over it right now and if it turns out bad, it could very well lead to abortion of the project. MCA is almost wiped according to the Russia guy saying India doesn't have enough technology to build a 5G plane and is now relying on PAK-FA to gain experience and technology to improve its own aviation industry. The words are not mine but Soyuz from WAFF.

The tender has been increased from 126 to 200, which was the original number of aircraft the IAF wanted inducted, but was scaled back. Economic growth and a deteriorating security enviroment has allowed for the expansion.

The tender will most likely be split between 126/74 AESA Superbugs, and the MiG-35 OR Mirage 2k5.

My personal guess is that the combo will be Superhornets/Mirages, with a cemented deal for Indo-Russian cooperation on the PAK-FA, MTA in a couple years time. Russia will also be awarded the tender to upgrade existing MiG-29s into OVT/-35 standard.

Originally posted by Harlequin
There would have to be a heck of a support package as the Indian fleet is french/russian/british , so the infrastructure isn`t there at all.

I put money on the MiG-29OVT/MiG-35

Well, when you factor into account that there will be local production lines for this aircraft, plus extensive customization/indiginizatoin of weapons, avionics, etc., and that the induction of these (2) MRCA aircraft will replace upwards of 3-4 aircraft types, there won't be any more of a problem than had already existed, (which the IAF seems to have manage fairly well), and will probably be less of one.

Moreover, if the M2K5 is bought, and I feel it will be, you'll see upgradation of current assembly lines to -5, and upgrades of current M2Ks to -5 standard. Effectively replacing the role/logistics of the current Mirage fleet.

Then you have to factor in economies of scale as well; richer countries can afford to be a little less thrifty. In 5 or so years when the production lines are established, the Indian GDP effectively more than double, as would the effetive military budget, allowing for the logistical accomodation of multiple type MRCAs.


While obviously splitting the tender between two will create a longer logistics chain than selecting only one, it will not only be managable, but will be even more relatively managable in 5 years than the 3-4 aircraft it will replace in the IAF today.

-Raj

I can`t see washington saying `yes` to tech transfer , which is what India wants ; the russians i can see them doing that but not the americans.

Especialy since they want AESA and don`t want to be in a postition of having locally built airframes with no radar (if relations turn bad)


Interesting your thoughts on the Mirages

In the recent Cope India-06 US/India airforce exercises, according to the USAF pilots who posted their experiences in other forums, the IAF pilots they talked to were all about the Mirage 2000-5 for hte MRCA, because of all the aircraft offered, it would best fit into their current setup, and would require less of a monetary/time/logistical investment to get those planes built and flying

It would be intersting to see whether radar tech will be transferred for the Superhornets. American companies, politicians, etc. have openly talked about the strong potential to sell them AESA equipped (really, thats their biggest selling point), and the IAF's MRCA requirement is for fully local produciton lines, and assumedly, the Superbug tender meets those reqs...

Perhaps the plane will be locally built, customized, etc, but the radars will be imported from America?

which maybe as i suggest - but what if relations turn sour and teh radars stop coming?

Well, I don't think relations will ever go that bad. What the whole F-18 thing is, is far more than just a simple military arms purchase. Its a cornerstone of the plan to harmonize Indian and American strategic aims in the world.

This plan in particular is being used as a trust building litmus test for cooperation on a much broader range of geostrategic issues, as are the recent nuclear energy cooperation agreements.

American officials all the way up to Bush are telling everyone everytime they can that the Indians should 'try them out' and see how sincere they are with regards to being a reliable supplier, after India got burned after the 97 nuke tests and is now twice shy on US arms.

The political weight behind the F-18 deal is heavy, and that, plus the structure of the MRCA deal and the 'glide path' accords on Indo-American relations will all be a very strong inertia to work against. That America is offering all the bells and whistles to sale, and that India is willing to take the logistical hit and reward America with a huge sale overriding their skepticism about spares are both olive branches being held out on both sides that will have to be accepted before both nations build the trust to work together futher.

Which is why I see the F-18 winning at the very least a portion of the contract, and that both India and America will not mess around with this materially as well as politically symbolic offer.

Who the hell are India with?. They use either British, Russian and maybe NATO equipment and weapons. They use Migs,Sukhois,Jaguars and harriers. Is thier government Schizofrenic(Split Personality) or somthing?.

Or are they Neutral becouse Uncomitted Nations seem to use anything.

The BIG question: Whose side is India on?.

[edit on 28-11-2005 by Browno]

They are on Indias side and buy whats best for India irrespective of design origin. Good for them ,I wish we were the same

Originally posted by Browno
Who the hell are India with?. They use either British, Russian and maybe NATO equipment and weapons. They use Migs,Sukhois,Jaguars and harriers. Is thier government Schizofrenic(Split Personality) or somthing?.

The BIG question: Whose side is India on?.

[edit on 28-11-2005 by Browno]

Careful, thats the sort of confused 'black and white', 'with us or against us' world view that gets you elected to the White House.

India has always been nonaligned, i.e. friends with everyone, which, in the scope of the discussion, allows them to buy literally any kind of military hardware and tech from anybody. The jets and components in those jets reflect this, and its then norm to have components from up to six different countries + India in a jet.

The only two countries in the world that really dislike India are Pakistan and China. During the cold war, NATO and Soviet bloc countries used India as a diplomatic intolocutor and a meeting ground of embassy personnel. In this post cold war world, with the growth of China, India, and all that, India's slowly reorienting toward closer cooperation with America, EU and Russia simultaniously, especially in areas of overlapping interests of all four countries

Originally posted by Manincloak
Actually no. Experts say China will surpass USA in terms of economy in just 30 years.

There are always "experts" that take diferent sides. China has several HUGE obsticals to overcome if they are going to overtake the US economy.

Besudes, 30 years is a LOOOOONG time. I say again, China can not hope to keep up it's current growth pace. History and reality are on my side.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Not really, not at all.

Is that why India has TRIED to do it themselves?

What's better, buying 5th gen fighters, with no chance of building them, or even possibly repair parts for them yourself [as would surely be the case with usa/lockheed]

Or jointly developing 5th gen fighters, and being able to make them and everything for them yourself [as would be with russia and Sukhoi/Mikoyan-Gurevich ]

I'd take the proven stealth/electronic technology of the US over economic benefits.

Actually, India was/still is offered a place in the JSF program. However, it would require India to sign an IPR agreement wherein technology from this aircraft could not be used on other aircraft, basically putting a stop to IAF practice of tech sharing and indigenizing of foreign components in their aircraft.

It's for this reason that India is teaming with Russia to design a 5th gen of their own. The design will be co-production, which will directly increase the potency of India's own aircraft industry, and will allow them full use of whatever technologies are developed for their own use.

It will take probably 5-10 ys longer for a PAK-FA to enter fullscale production than the JSF, but remember, India's enemies are the low-tech airforces of PLAAF and PAF, both of which will not be able to leapfrog India's tech advantage (solidified further by the MRCA(s), LCA) till that time. An Indian 5th gen production will keep that tech lead in the next aircraft generation, as China, even leaching some of Russias scientists, simply cannot develop such an aircraft on its own.

[edit on 28-11-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

Yes that last sentence of raj's is the key to IAF policy..
Keep up and ahead of the PAF and PLAAF with respect to tech.
But really believe me.. no F-16s/F-18s etc etc. in those 126/200 fighters..
Not happening..I have my sources..
Not unless there is IMMENSE pressure from the Indian govt. and that will not happen because they've got to contend with the commie elements of their coalition govt.