The Native American Indian

I don't know much about the subject to be honest, here in England we were taught about it in school which is what I base most of my ideas on but it was portrayed much in the same way as the OP described.
I still probably know more than a lot of people in England though, as they base the little they know on Westerns, that's assuming they realise that it's supposed to be set in America.

I try to not put things forward as if I 'pity' anyone, it's probably more mis-informed concern if anything. Anything that involves British Colonisation usually makes me feel guilty, though this is probably ignorance on my part due to not having studied the topic to any reasonable level. I thought it was a better attitude to have then a lot of people who don't seem to care and find it almost amusing.

[edit on 25-11-2005 by AgentSmith]

I have to agree with cavscout on this issue.
The past is the past. It can not be changed so why continue to cry over it. It will never be changed.
I myself am of the Cherokee nation. My tribe is from the Tennesee area. We are not confined to living on the res. We like other americans can go where we want, when we want. There is not much on the res other than history to keep people there. I left the res many many years ago.
Now, if you want to worry about the American Indian and what is being done against them, push your senators / govenors / representatives to put more finding into the IBA (Indain Bureu (spell) of Affairs) so that housing, schools, hospitals are properly funded. If you went on the res and saw the conditions that many live with, you would be horrified. And yes, the sale of lands needs to be stopped at all costs.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
I don't know much about the subject to be honest, here in England we were taught about it in school which is what I base most of my ideas on but it was portrayed much in the same way as the OP described.

I understand where the misconceptions can arise, AgentSmith. There is a vast difference between early American (English/Dutch) influence and early Canadian (French) influence. The nature of these disparate allegiances caused much turmoil due to the ongoing wars in Europe.

In the case of the fur trade, for example, the Dutch/English colonials supplied the Iroquois with muskets while the French, trading with the Ojibwa did not, setting up an unfair advantage which the Iroquois used to drive those Ojibwa back from lucrative trap lines as well as raiding their groups trying to get their canoes to trading posts.

In the end, this inequality set up what is referred to as the "Fur Wars",starting in the mid-1600's, when full scale battles were fought between those tribes, lasting for 50 years.

A very intelligently written book is available, written by Peter S. Schmalz; The Ojibwa of Southern Ontario", available through the University of Toronto Press (ISBN 0-8020-6778-6...) My edition was printed in 1995.

Something that people rarely think about, or even have the smallest inkling of imagining, is that back when the White man took the land from the Indians (I'm white, & even I an not as ignorant as the people in the past) that men & women didn't understand the Indians culture, & they absolutely had no desire to understand it.

Sorry, but when you come onto someone elses land, you must first try to understand them, look at their culture not as a "savage & barbarian" thing, but something that is just different than what you're used to, & try to understand it. Yes, I don't necessarily agree with the way the Indians lived back then, or even now, but at least I can try to understand their culture.

I have a very deep respect for the Native American, any & all tribes. Repsect for the Warrior life is something that comes easily to Me, but alot of them were very peaceful tribes too, until the white man came onto their land, & started showing their ignorance to Indian ways, Indian rights, & the Indian people. Sorry, just plain old greed wasn't the only misdeed that the white man did to the Indian. Don't forget about the murders of millions of buffalo, just to kill off the Indians food source, or the deliberate slaughter of Indians, just because a group of Indians decided to defend themselves against the white man invading their territory & raping their women.

Most people read the history books, & see "the savage" Indian, but not Me. I see both sides of those stories, I also read between the lines, & see that they left details out.

I see that people period, white, black, yellow, & yes red, all have their ignorances. Just because you are a certain color, it does not excuse you from living in the ignorances of your Forefathers, nor does it give you the right to stomp on everyone else & shove your opinion down down their collective throats.

All men & women, no matter their color, should learn how to get along with each other, & to understand the others culture, even if you do not agree with it, you should learn to accept it. Agree to disagree. That's a hard lesson I learned a long time ago.

In the end, it doesn't matter your color, we all have red blood flowing through our veins, we all have pink & grey brain matter in between our ears, it's just that some people choose not to use that brain matter, & overcome their own ignorances, or their own "cultural programming".

Look past the color of your skin, look past the skin color of the person standing next to you, & see how that person acts, how that person respects him or herself, see how that person respect you, how they work, how they live their lives.

Don't judge Me because I am white, judge Me because I am human.

Originally posted by monk84
They are relegated to "Reservations" which are just ghettos where they are left to live a life of poverty, hopelessness, and utter despair.

There is no restriction of movement out of the Reservation, and the reservations are sovreign indian territory, not 'ghettos'.

Originally posted by SpartanLeonidas

In the end, it doesn't matter your color, we all have red blood flowing through our veins, we all have pink & grey brain matter in between our ears, it's just that some people choose not to use that brain matter, & overcome their own ignorances, or their own "cultural programming".

This is wisdom and an accurate portrayal of why there is such divisiveness.

It all boils down to culture clash.

Too bad I have no 'applauds' left to give out... so you'll just get this:

Um yeah, not every native american lived on the plains & chased buffalo. You watched too much hollywood cowboy movies. The Aboriginal population is actually exploding in Western Canada. Saskatchewan is already 1/3 indian and in 50-100 years the Aboriginal population will out number the Whites which might be a bad thing cause a non tax paying group will control the gov't. Now stop right there!, yes natives pay taxes off of the reservation as well.

Just a week ago, I came upon "Custer Died for your Sins" by Vine Deloria. I snagged it immediately, since I hadn't read in in thirty years, and had a lot of fun reading Deloria's always-witty yet dead serious prose. The next day I read in the news that Deloria had died the day before at age 72. What a coincidence!

One of Deloria's comments were that many whites wanting to have a spiritual contact with Indians claim Indian ancestry, typically Cherokee, and typically descended through a female rather than a male ancestor. My mother said that she was part Cherokee, descended from a "Cherokee princess" back in the mid 1800's; I'm sure that particular legend had been passed to her by her mother, who probably believed it, too.

Here in Arizona we have more land in the rez than any other state, although Oklahoma has more Indians than we do. Interestingly enough, the largest and most politically active tribe here, the Navajo ("dineh") didn't get here until about the same times the first Whites did; they migrated from what's now Oregon and Washington, and their language is still based on the Athabascan family. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that people blow them off when they talk about wanting to close down the San Francisco Peaks for skiing, since they'd been the "ancestral homes of the spirits since time immemorial". At least the Hopis can claim long-term living rights!

There are two large reservations here in the Phoenix metropolitan area; the Pima-Maricopa and the Tohono O'odham; and one town, Guadalupe, which is not on a rez but is populated almost completely by Yaqui. So there are many Indians from those tribes, as well as Navajo, Hopi, and Apache we work with, go shopping with, etc.

(By the way, ethnic solidarity might be bruited about in some areas, but most Hopi I know despise the Navajo, and vice versa.)

What the Whites did to the Indians was criminal, but the reservation system itself -- as it exists today -- is as bad as anything ever done in the past. Indians are not allowed to sell their land, or even do anything much with it, without the permission from Uncle Pig in Washington DC, who also provides lots of welfare. Equally villainous, in my view, are the Uncle Tomahawks who run the rez. It's in their best interest to keep those federal grants coming in and not let the other Indians have the opportunity to live in freedom.

My wife worked for a year as a flight nurse with a company under contract to the IHS, transporting sick and injured Indians to hospitals in Flagstaff, Albuquerque, Tucson, and Phoenix. My sister-in-law is a pediatrician who worked for four years at Keams Canyon hospital on the Hopi Rez. Some of the stories they tell are terrifying: in Arizona more than half of the adult Indians are morbidly obese, alcoholic, diabetic, or a combination of all three!

Unemployment is high and the suicide rate would make Kurt Cobain proud. Part of the causative factors are purely physiological: Statistically, Southwestern Indians cannot hydrolize alchohol to the extent that Northern Europeans can, nor can they burn off unwanted carbs as fast. This to some extent, accounts for the prevalence of the three diseases mentioned above.

But more important, I believe, is the collusion between Uncle Pig and Uncle Tomahawk to keep the Indians in this same status. Of course, the rise of the Indian casinos has done wonders for many Indians (not all tribes, for one reason or another, have them), but the Indian tribes in Arizona, for all the new money coming in, are still in a bad way.

Because I did not want to fan the flames of this offensive ill-informed thread. Heck of a way to wish us a happy Thanksgiving, amigo. But since the thread has not died a natural death, I will inject my two cents by way of nonlethal blowgun dart (phhhhht).

As my Brothers have said in their replies, we are not confined anywhere- unless you consider Leonard Peltier and our other incarcerated and tortured brothers. We are as 'free' as other Americans. In fact, America has ruled that we are human beings with the same Constiutional rights as other Americans, despite our status as sovereign members of sovereign and independent Indian Nations.

OTS, if you have a drop of Cherokee blood, go out to a mesa top and pray in a blanket for a few days and nights this winter. Take a bottle of water, and fast. Make a little sagebrush fire. Blood quantum and racism- from a 'native' author or the US govt- is not Native. Our lineages come down from our Mothers, and 'part Indians' are some of the most spiritual and active members of the community, past and present. Quannah Parker, John Ross, the list goes on and on. If you have Native Blood- and if you think about it, this includes virtually everyone on this planet- you can shake off the brainwashing of modern society and begin to live in harmony with the Creator and your fellow man.

We are the rich, and we are the poor. We are oppressed by the govt, and we are the govt. We are everywhere; perhaps, dear reader, even in your family closet. We're even North and South (and East and West) of the border.

What can you do for us? Think Native. Live Native. Grow a little corn, calm down a little, and enjoy the natural pleasures in life. Sunset a few laws. Turn off a few electric lights. Walk instead of drive. Spend money on space instead of torture camps. Better yet, buy a drum from a Native artisan, and visit a pow-wow. You'll find ways to connect and help and be helped by friends that have a name and a face and you will make invaluable friendships that will last a lifetime.

For current Native American Indian news, try Indianz.com.

Agent Smith, we're even in England: July 10-11: Bison Farm Pow-wow
Location: Bush Farm Bison Centre, West Knoyle, Warminster, Wiltshire, England UK BA12 6AE
Well established Hobbyist Pow-wow which has many Native American supporters who visit us regularly.
Contact: Colin or Penny Ellis, phone: +44 1747 830263, email: [email protected]
Event Website: www.bisonfarm.co.uk....

[edit on 26-11-2005 by Chakotay]

chakotay says:

OTS, if you have a drop of Cherokee blood, go out to a mesa top and pray in a blanket for a few days and nights this winter.... If you have Native Blood- and if you think about it, this includes virtually everyone on this planet- you can shake off the brainwashing of modern society and begin to live in harmony with the Creator and your fellow man.

Chakotay, I hope you are not implying that only someone who is Indian or part Indian can "shake off the brainwashing of modern society and begin to live in harmony with the Creator and your fellow man."

[edit on 28-11-2005 by Off_The_Street]

About 10 years ago, I became interested in the religions that existed in Europe more than 2500 years ago. It all started by reading about the various cultures that preceded the Roman invasions of those areas in Gaul and the British Isles. What I learned was that they were very concerned with time. Stonehenge, as well as many other sites like it, were set up so that the changing seasons could be marked, for planting and reaping the harvests and the solstice and equinox were days to be reckoned. Entire religions were set around the turning of the year. Corn Gods, Greenmen, fertility rituals, the dying and rebirth of the sun were all ritualized by these cultures.

What was really striking to me from this exercise was the similarity those distant rituals and celebrations had with Native American ceremony.
It seemed to me that there really was no difference at all, at a basic level, and that the two were actually interchangeable in a lot of ways... i.e. the Sacred Circle is the same for both...and many symbols, like the Labyrinth, the Spiral and the Crossed Wheel had the same exact meanings! Reliance on the healing qualities of plants, or the changing habits of the fauna show us what to expect with the weather...all these things they shared even though an ocean seperated them.

The upshot of this is that the Native American spiritual journey is no different from the ones found in the ancient Old World places like Malta, Greece, Ireland or Gaul. While small differences existed (of course), at the rudimentary levels they were the same earth bound religions still existing here in the Americas.

So, no, OTS...you don't need a smidge of NA to smudge. You'd only be returning to the roots of your distant past, where we are all brothers and sisters, regardless of the way the sun and time has genetically altered our skin.