Originally posted by ImJaded
Is there a way to perhaps educate the men and women on this issue ? Am I being unrealistic ?

I think education is the ONLY way to have an effect on this problem. And like I said before, it's a cultural issue that will take a generation at least to change.

I admire you and commend you for taking a step toward a better way. And I don't think you're being unrealistic. Every journey begins with a single step.

If we could make a concerted effort here to educate and provide birth control without the moral judgments, I honestly think we could drastically reduce the number of abortions that we have.

Unfortunately the same people who are against abortion are, in most cases, against providing free access to birth control and education.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

I'm not sure if anyone has been to Turkey before, but one of my oldest friends was born and raised in Turkey.

The Nation is...strange to say the least, there is such a difference in culture as you travel across the Nation it is shocking. You literally go from a Nation which on one side is just like the U.K. and on the other side being one of the most extreme and worst Nation's on the Earth.

In reality, this clash is probably making things worse. Turkey, needs to solve this problem and education is the way to go. Rape has always held a form of stigma about it, even in the West and it is only through education we will ever beat it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So what? It's part of the culture. It's not perfect, but have you looked at the difference in pay between the women and men of the USA lately? Women are not treated equally here either.

My guess is that it changes from place to place in the US. There are some places in the US where some men still think that women are different than men and shouldn't be paid the same, but you will find other parts in the US where men think women should be getting paid the same as other men.

The difference is that according to the law women should be paid the same as a man with the same experience and degree. If the woman finds that she is not getting paid the same, she can always sue the company, and that's not good news for any company.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Who is most often the victim of rape and domestic violence?

Children. Because they normally can't fight back and because they are normally too innocent to do something about it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Who is expected to have a full time job, raise the children and cook and clean?

Noone....in what world are you living today?.... There are many cases in the US where the father has to stay at home, take care of the kids and cook, while the mother is working.... Or both parents share responsabilities and both raise their children. Yes, there are still women in the US that are the ones who raise the children and stay home, but it is their choice to do so.

Are there people who still think that the woman should be the one to stay at home and take care of the children? yes, but it is not written down as a law and it is not the rule anymore, it is the exception.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I think you are mistaken. There are plenty of Muslims who speak out against this practice and against the treatment of women in their country. I think that you're just not listening.

Not in Islamic societies where Sharia law rules. Yes, there are moderates that speak out against this, but if they go to one of the Islamic states where Sharia law is in effect and speak out, those moderates would get a very prompt execution, and they do get prompt executions for being moderates.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
- I agree with soficrow that this story and others like it are small attempts to make the case for use of force against the 'barbarians' without really coming right out and saying it.

I don't have anything against soficrow but since when has she spoken favorably in any topic involving the US?

The US, and many other countries speak out against this sort of injustices, does that mean that no injustice happen in the US and other countries? Unfortunately it is not the case, but at least in the US and other countries there are laws against these injustices.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This administration wants to control the countries with the oil and make a case against muslim countries. Notice that even though 'Muslim' or 'Islam' isn't mentioned in the original article, the picture is a woman in a burka.

This is about radical Islam, not about moderate Muslims....

Why is it that you are trying to exagerate what is being said?......i don't think anyone "in their right mind" is calling for the total destruction of all Muslims....but something must be done to stop Muslim radicals.

BTW, is France and other European countries also trying to control the "Muslim countries" and bring war to the Middle East because of the news of the riots where most of the participants are Muslim?.....


[edit on 24-11-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
but you will find other parts in the US where men think women should be getting paid the same as other men.

The difference is that according to the law women should be paid the same as a man with the same experience and degree. If the woman finds that she is not getting paid the same, she can always sue the company, and that's not good news for any company.

Yes, many people THINK that women SHOULD be paid the same, but in reality, it's rare. I'm a woman who worked for many years for the world's largest chipmaker and NEVER did I catch up with the men, even though I did a better job, advanced faster, contributed more and had a better work ethic than my peers who were all men.

There are always reasons they can give to make paying women less appear reasonable. I know it's not like that everywhere, but overall, it is.

Children. Because they normally can't fight back and because they are normally too innocent to do something about it.

Having been a victim of assault as a child and as an adult woman, I could not overpower my attacker either time. And as a woman, I was too ashamed, embarrassed and scared to do anything about it. Just something to think about.

Or both parents share responsabilities and both raise their children.

I don't know if you've ever been in one of these 'equal' relationships, but I have. And sure there are cases where things are equal, but really, they're rare in my experience. Maybe that's because I hate to 'nag'...

I don't have anything against soficrow but since when has she spoken favorably in any topic involving the US?

I don't agree with soficrow because of anything other than what she wrote here. Many times I agree with her, sometimes I don't, but I don't agree with her because of who she is, rather because I happened to agree with her on this point. It's irrelevant how many times she speaks out against the USA.

This is about radical Islam, not about moderate Muslims....

So it's about some Muslims and not others? And some who aren't Muslims at all? Then why is it about Muslims at all? It's about some men, not others. It's about some countries, not others. The only real generalization we can make in my opinion is that it's about some cultures, whether they're in Turkey, Pakistan, whether they're Muslim or not, it's a cultural issue.

Why is it that you are trying to exagerate what is being said?......i don't think anyone "in their right mind" is calling for the total destruction of all Muslims....but something must be done to stop Muslim radicals.

I think because I don't like stereotypes and generalizations. Saying that the Muslim word needs to fix this problem is like saying the Christians have to do something about Pat Robertson and his group. Why is it so important to point a finger at a religion, the VAST majority of whom do NOT condone or practice this behavior?

I'm just concerned that many people are buying the anti-Muslim propaganda and I am a Soldier of Grace. I fight for things like this. What can I say?

BTW, is France and other European countries also trying to control the "Muslim countries" and bring war to the Middle East because of the news of the riots where most of the participants are Muslim?.....

Maybe not, but that doesn't change my suspicions about the leaders of the USA.

Excellent post! Thanks so much.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I'm just concerned that many people are buying the anti-Muslim propaganda

If the victims of "honor killings" are 99% Muslims.

Muslims say they are well aware of it (but helpless at the moment)

How could it be anti-Muslim-propaganda to say this is a problem in the Muslim world?

Where is the anti-Muslim propaganda you are talking about in this thread?

I can't see any.




[edit on 24-11-2005 by Riwka]

ah - ok,

thanks for your explanation

I like this thread, everyone is being civil and for the most part even considerate of the feelings & thoughts of other posters. I think the discussion has pretty much come full circle now and everyone is in agreement on the following points:

A. This is a cultural, not a religious, problem--even though most of the killings of this type happen in Muslim countries (other than India), or in Muslim communities within other countries. There are many reasons for these culutural practices, but mostly they stem from ignorance. (Most of the places where these types of killings occur tend to be rather isolated from the more educated/civilized regions of the countries involved.) This isolation can be due to geography, or it can be a societal thing.

B. The surest cure for this type of practice is education of the people in the areas effected. Such education will take time and resources to implement. In some cases proper schools must be built, teachers hired & trained, etc.. In other cases (most notably the cultural isolation cases within Western countries), prejudice against the communities needs to be halted and more done to assimilate the communities into the fabric of the country.

C. Existing laws covering such behavior need to be enforced where they exist, and either changed or passed into law where they do not exist or where such behavior is considered legal.

D. What we, as individuals outside the regions, areas, countries, etc. can do to help is to encourage the authorities in those places to implement A, B, and C above.

If I have overlooked something please feel free to add it in or correct anything I've posted that is not in general agreement.

Peace.

P.S. Money almost always helps, so contribute where and how you can.

[edit on 25-11-2005 by Astronomer68]

Excellent summary, Astronomer68, and it was a good idea to put bullet 1 where you did. It is a cultural problem, first and foremost.

Many of us cannot do much to help except to write letters to politicians and/or contribute. I would be willing to do both. What organizations are out there that we can contribute to?

You have voted Astronomer68 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

[edit on 25-11-2005 by jsobecky]

That question is really best addressed by sending an e-mail to whichever area or country you are most concerned with. The officials in those places will direct you to the proper organizations. Additionally, there are international organizations (NGO) as well as U.N. agencies. I think we should ask the women where best to contribute as they are probably more in tune with the groups that do the best job.