NEWS: Women Forced To Marry Rapists Or Die

Excellent point Rikwa. This is a very distinguishing characteristic and something that was getting lost in the conversation. This is also true in the case of cultures that practice female mutilation, something I never understood and probably never will.

If you go back and read the source of the link that 'I' posted - you will find that it is the father of the girls in the picture that allowed the girls to be photographed even though he feared reprisals for that. Are you going to join in with the people in his district and tell him he's being 'unislamic'?

So what? It's part of the culture. It's not perfect, but have you looked at the difference in pay between the women and men of the USA lately? Women are not treated equally here either. Who is most often the victim of rape and domestic violence? Who is expected to have a full time job, raise the children and cook and clean?



I think you are mistaken. There are plenty of Muslims who speak out against this practice and against the treatment of women in their country. I think that you're just not listening.



I'm sorry, I don't understand your point or your question.

I was pointing out to those who say that the picture contained in my link ::see up the thread:: was deliberate anti-muslim propaganda and unconnected to the story - that the picture was of the three girls of concern in the story I posted, so 'very' connected to that story- we may have got our wires crossed :-)



[edit on 24-11-2005 by hands]

Boatphone wrote



as (i think) benevolent heretic said, people do speak out about this.
But according to your logic, should i blame you whenever a man/woman commits a crime?

What you are suggesting is that i, as a muslim woman, am responsible for these men (and women, sadly) who believe that these are appropriate actions to take against their fellow human beings?

And please, tell me, because i have seen many people on here saying the same thing.....that muslims do not speak out......and i always wonder, what exactly do you expect us to do?

Honestly, i am interested. Is talking to a friend about it and condemning it enough for you?
Or does one have to take out a front page advertisement, find some air time on the radio.....what?

salaam

aisha

Aisha,

Word of mouth is very much where changes are going to happen with something like this, very much so.

What I would like to know is how 'I' as a western (christian heritage) woman can do? Other than stand idly by and shake my head at reports in the newspapers? (and no I don't believe going to war over an issue like this is the way to solve it.)

I am talking about Islamic men in Islamic nations who allow their nations to be run by Islamic extremists (who inforce laws that are against basic freedoms).

If they don't want to do it (stop extremism) that its fine, but then they are still to blame.

-- Boat

[edit on 24-11-2005 by Boatphone]

If that were the case, then we wouldn't be spending our time discussing it here today.

Where is Pervez Musharraf when all of this is happening? He has the authority to put an end to it in Pakistan. If he takes no action other than condemning it, which anyone can do, then we must conclude that he condones it.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by jsobecky]

So, then people speaking out against it isn't enough. You want them to stop it. And as geek101 said, what do you expect her to do? How exactly are they supposed to stop it?

Speaking from a nation that has no violence, maybe you can help her to stop it...

And by your logic, President Bush must condone gang violence, domestic violence, murder, drug use, etc.

He has the authority to put an end to it in the USA. If he takes no action other than condemning it, which anyone can do, then we must conclude that he condones it.

If anyone in the US Government spoke out in favor of gun violence you could put blame on the Government. That not happening though.

What is happening in Pakistan, is members of the Pakistani Government are speaking out in favor of honor killings.

What you have in Syria and Jordan is the actual legalization of honor killings.

That's a big difference between what's going on over there and what's going on in the US.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by AceOfBase]

shalom - salaam aisha (geek101),

I think If "honor killings" is a Muslim problem, (and if I see who are the victims, I think it is a Muslim problem) Muslims could solve it.

The Muslim village and elders have to delegitimize, condemn and isolate the perpetrator - and not the defenceless and unprotected. And this could start in your local community.

What would you wish: how can we Non-Muslims help?

[edit on 24-11-2005 by Riwka]

You have voted AceOfBase for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Here he is:
Musharraf: Get Yourself Raped And Go To Canada

Btw as said before, these "honor killings" happens in non-muslim countries as well. Where it is considered as murder and illegal. But often these murders are not detected. I.e. many immigrant women have disappeared in Denmark but the cases are not investigated because no one has officially reported the women as "missing". There is a debate going on in Denmark as we speak to open up investigations. Cases they strongly suspect are "honor killings". In many cases the killings are detected but the cases are not solved. Only some cases are solved and make its way to media. How to stop the practice of "honor killings" in our own countries, like Germany, Denmark, Sweden, UK, France and so on?

hands wrote:



Riwka wrote:



shalom, salaam, hello, peace

thank you for your comments. You ask very valid questions but the sad fact is, is that you can do nothing.
Hand, this is all i do too.....shake my head, get angry at the fact that these people are presenting a view of Islam which is not true, and thats it.
I have a thread on here:

true islam

which explains more about my own views on this.

Riwka, i totally agree that the village elders/leader need to stop this, but they wont. Simple thing is that THIS is what they have been taught is islam. They dont read Quran, and if they do, they certainly dont understand it. These people follow something but i sure as hell dont know what.
I am making a small step though. I am creating a web site that will present the true islam, it will have arguments against the use of hadith collections as a source of islamic law and articles about why islam is seen as it is.
Its my tiny contribution to what i pray will be a total islamic revolution soon. Not between muslims and non-muslims, but within the muslim population themselves.

Honour killings are murder, plain and simple and although i think you are right, it IS mainly muslims who do this, i also believe that it is due more to a lack of education and a strict adherence to tradition, than actually being a muslim.

Maybe the right people aren't speaking out, or enough voices aren't speaking, or they aren't saying the right things. There could be a hundred reasons. All I am working with is your statement that plenty of people speak out. Maybe you can fill in some of the gaps and give times, places, and examples of when they spoke out.


We have laws against violence which are enforced by a police force and a court system. Our prisons are full, so it must be working. I don't know why you had to try to drag Bush into this. Why don't you answer the question I put forth about Musharraf instead?

Lest I be misunderstood, I would love to help geek101, or anyone in her situation. She can't do it alone. She can't do it at all unless there are enough people who want it stopped. In her country, it's imperative to get the backing of the men and the gov't. Safe houses staffed by the military and the police would be a start.

So don't come down on me, BH. I'm not the enemy.

hellmutt wrote:




punish them to the fullest extent of the laws available, and educate them to the fact that what they are doing has NO basis in Islam.

aisha

salaam, hello, etc

jsobecky....would like to point out, that i am actually from the UK

fortunately i do not live in a "muslim" country.

And if i did, i dont think i would rely on muslim men to change anything.

So, you think Muslims don't speak out against this? Here are 2 links and I'm sure there are plenty more. If you're curious, I suggest you do some research.

www.muhajabah.com...
www.mwlusa.org...



Musharraf is the president of Pakistan. I have no idea what powers he has. You brought up the president of the country as if he is all powerful and could stop these honor killings in his country. I 'dragged' Bush into this to make a comparison only. He is my president and he speaks out against abortion (for example) but he cannot stop it alone. A president of a country is not all powerful. That's the only reason I 'dragged' Bush into this.

People in the US government speak out FOR abortion just as people in the Pakistani government speak out for honor killings. And a lot more people here have abortions than perform honor killings there, I'm guessing.



I apologize if it seems that I'm coming down on you. I am not. I just found your points the ones worth debating. Some points, I just shake my head and move on, but I had some counter points to yours and wanted to make them.

I assure you I'm not 'coming down' on you, even though it may 'sound' like that at times. I just like debate and you make good points.

Thank you Riwka, it certainly has been hard to deal with.

Is there a way to perhaps educate the men and women on this issue ? Am I being unrealistic ? perhaps, but I don't see how this can be done by force.
I try to sit and talk with young arab women I know whenever I can, those who feel they can't go to their parents for advice on boys and sex and such and while this is a small step it still feels like it is not enough.
A little education can do alot for them at a young age

imjaded wrote:


imjaded, i missed that post you wrote about your cousin, and i would like to add my condolences.

I would also like to say that i admire the fact that you educate these ladies. Indeed, education is the best weapon and anyone who sets forth to do that on a personal level like you, should be applauded

aisha

[edit on 24-11-2005 by geek101]