Originally posted by Relentless
People being murdered for things they did not have any control over seems a case where there can be no argument across the board. It is wrong, regardless of religion or morality, isn't it?

I'm not saying it isn't wrong. Even I think it's wrong. I think it's wrong for any person to take another's life. Yes, It's wrong.

My point is that there are a million wrong things going on in this world and we can't handle them all. There are wrong things going on in our country. Babies are starving. People are homeless and freezing. People are killing other people. What difference does the reason for the killing make?

What gives us the right to go outside of our country and police somewhere else when we don't do that great a job here, taking care of and policing ourselves?

That's all I'm saying. If we had a nation of people who were living in harmony, then I might agree that we could help some of these women, but still not by delegating morals to the men. I personally just don't believe it's our place to tell other people how to live. Especially when we have so many problems ourselves.

I am a little stunned about this take coming from a board of fight the NWO, Christian Right, etc. views. Is there a difference I am missing here? Are we sure?

There are many members on this board FROM the Christian right. There are many who support Bush and this admin (and therefore the NWO).

I am not one of them, but I do believe in live and let live to a degree. If we could HELP the women escape or come at it from that angle, I would support it. But for us to go over there telling these men that what they're doing is wrong and put them in jail because we disapprove of it, I believe is ineffective and... I'll say it... wrong.

It would be like India coming over here and imprisoning those who eat beef. It's none of their business, even though they think it's terribly, morally wrong.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

IMO - this article, its title, and its intent are the finest example of yellow journalism and propaganda I've seen in quite some time.

It describes a small % of Islamic people, but targets the whole religion - and seeks to justify a Christian fundamentalist jihad in response.

I fail to see where it is the US behind this or even a christian coalition thing.

The report, by the United Nations Population Fund, is the first in-depth study in Turkey of the different motivations behind "honour-killings", where women and young girls are murdered by their relatives for allegedly bringing shame on the family.

Human rights activists estimate that hundreds of Turkish women are murdered in such killings each year.

The issue is a major concern for the European Union, which is monitoring human rights improvements made by Turkey in its attempt to join the EU by 2015.

Just some perspective.

Originally posted by Relentless
I fail to see where it is the US behind this or even a christian coalition thing.

It's not the info itself - but rather the way it is being sensationalized, and used to motivate people to anger and hatred against a whole religion.


...We are looking at a rationale for war, packaged for general consumption.





add last point.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by soficrow]

In america we call it abortion,
kill the fetus so the family won't be disgraced...

I'm getting flamed for sure on this one

[edit on 24-11-2005 by mrjones]

Originally posted by soficrow
...We are looking at a rationale for war, packaged for general consumption.

Where are you seeing that? I am seeing an attempt at reform coming from the UN, the EU and a woman's rights organization. Who is driving this as a rationale for war? These stories are rarely even mentioned in the mainstream press, especially in the US, and when they are, they are usually soon forgotten.

Originally posted by Relentless
I fail to see where it is the US behind this ...

You're right. But I am speaking as a member of my country. I am speaking of my opinion of people getting into others' business and delegating morals. I am speaking against the logical possibility of the US (the world police) going over there to tell people how to live. That seems to be what many people think we (the US) should do. I am speaking to that.

And yes, here, we do something that other countries probably find just as bad if not worse. Here we take the lives of small, unborn, innocent children and call it abortion. Can't you see how another country's morals might be so totally against that and want to come and make us stop?

(I am 100% pro-choice, by the way)

I do get your point Benevolent. I now you were speaking directly to members of this board who may be getting off base on this. I really don't think the view you are speaking against is a major concern though. I don't see the majority of people in the US even caring one way or another.

Perhaps I should say that my last comments prior to this one though were directly in response to what Sofi was saying. No one is or probably will go over "there" and do anything about this problem. The UN and EU addressing it in the manner they are seems a positive step in encouraging some countries to address this issue though instead of ignoring it. Just my take.

if the original poster of this thread truly believes this abhorrent activity is islamic, i beg of you, go to a website where you can search the Quran by word and find me a verse which supports what you are saying (in effect, that Islam supports such a practise).

If you cant do that, then you have to accept that this happens NOT because of the Quran, but because there are stupid, evil people in this world who like nothing better than to falsely claim something is acceptable because God said so

Originally posted by soficrow
IMO - this article, its title, and its intent are the finest example of yellow journalism and propaganda I've seen in quite some time.

It describes a small % of Islamic people, but targets the whole religion - and seeks to justify a Christian fundamentalist jihad in response.

As mentioned earlier, the article seemd to go out of it's way to not mention muslims explicitly.

I also don't think it's that small a percent of the population.
If it were, why would it be legal in so many muslim countries?

Originally posted by Relentless
my last comments prior to this one though were directly in response to what Sofi was saying.

IMO - this is an issue of male violence, comparable to domestic violence in the USA and other developed nations.

But - it's being packaged as a religious issue, and being used to promote anti-Islamic sentiment. NG IMO.

I also am concerned that the Women's Movement is being hijacked and used to promote political agendas...

No one is or probably will go over "there" and do anything about this problem.

The USA is pursuing a war agenda - and targeting Islamic nations. Anything, including this report, can be used as fodder to create a rationale and generate public support.

Remember Afghanistan? The 'women's thing' there was used, abused, and tweaked to help justify the attack - supposedly to liberate Afghani women. So who did the the US put in power in Afghanistan when they moved on to Iraq? The worst hardline Islamic-Afghani warlords.

I want to add a few points that my husband and I have covered about this subject. (Why is it that so many of our good discussions come from threads on this board?)

- I think this practice is abhorent. As seen from the eyes of a citizen of the USA, where the culture is very different than in the countries whose culture allows and accepts this practice, I am deeply saddened for these women. However, my mind is open enough to see that other cultures might think the same of us for our abortion laws or for eating beef. These cultures have no right to force us to behave differently. Education is one thing, but force is ineffective.

- It would take a cultural shift to make the changes required to stop this practice. It would take a commitment of a generation (25-30 years) to educate and instill into these people the harm they are doing to their own people and the benefit and value of punishing the rapists instead of the raped.

- I do not support simply using force to stop the men from doing this. That doesn't solve the problem and if we've learned nothing else from Iraq, we should have learned that we cannot just go sweeping into a country and change a culture with the use of force.

- I don't think it's the right of one culture to impose their morals and their beliefs on another culture, just the same as I don't think it's right for a religion to impose their morals and their beliefs on someone. If one culture wants to learn or wants to be informed of the advantages of the other, then I support that 100%.

- I agree with soficrow that this story and others like it are small attempts to make the case for use of force against the 'barbarians' without really coming right out and saying it. This administration wants to control the countries with the oil and make a case against muslim countries. Notice that even though 'Muslim' or 'Islam' isn't mentioned in the original article, the picture is a woman in a burka.

Great discussion!

[edit on 24-11-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Well, TODAY's Christain church does NOT incourage the mis-treatment of women, but TODAY's Islam does. Think about it.

-- Boat

Originally posted by Boatphone
Well, TODAY's Christain church does NOT incourage the mis-treatment of women, but TODAY's Islam does. Think about it.

-- Boat

So... Time makes the difference, then, huh? I don't buy that. But then, I was beaten as a child and the bible was used as a justification, so maybe I'm biased.

How, though, do you explain Muslims who DON'T believe in this practice and non- Muslims who do? If it's a Muslim thing (and I believe that's what you're implying) how do you explain the non-muslims who practice this activity? Are they closet Muslims?

Originally posted by Boatphone
Well, TODAY's Christain church does NOT incourage the mis-treatment of women, but TODAY's Islam does. Think about it.

-- Boat

With the exception of any woman who has the audacity to go to a gynochologist.. better abuse her 'just in case' she's not merely going to get a pap smear or the pill. That is 'today's' christian church.

Yep.. murdering women for being raped is barbaric. They should take a tip from the enlightened, moral west and just call them sluts, liars or 'deserving' instead. This stadegy works well enough to prevent apx 90% of western women from reporting attacks; silence via humilation is so much more compassionate than the threat of death.

Both cultures treat rape victims appaulingly.. the difference is only in the degree.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by riley]

I think we mix several things now.

AceofBase tried to explain that so called "honor" killing (part of violence aginst woman) indeed is what some name here a "Muslim Thing".

In several Muslim countries which he mentioned, cases of "honor" killings are not classified under the usual category of murderous crimes. In Jordan, it is even codified in law.

Furthermore, "violence against woman" is more or less blamed against men. (my opinion)

But in many "honor" killings, the women themselves participate in such a disgusting crime, the women of the family actively participated in killing their own daughters or sisters.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Boatphone
Well, TODAY's Christain church does NOT incourage the mis-treatment of women, but TODAY's Islam does. Think about it.

-- Boat

So... Time makes the difference, then, huh? I don't buy that. But then, I was beaten as a child and the bible was used as a justification, so maybe I'm biased.

How, though, do you explain Muslims who DON'T believe in this practice and non- Muslims who do? If it's a Muslim thing (and I believe that's what you're implying) how do you explain the non-muslims who practice this activity? Are they closet Muslims?

According to Islamic Law women are less then men; they have less rights and are not treated as equals. No body in the Islamic community is speaking out against these horrible laws, so they are to blame too even if they do not abuse women.

-- Boat