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NEWS: Women Forced To Marry Rapists Or Die

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posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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I agree that this is a terrible practice. However, I'm with dgtempe and Amethyst. We cannot be the keepers for the morality of the world's people. We could probably look into every country and every religion and find something that we don't approve of and think needs to change.

The best way to avoid looking at one's own problems is to concentrate on someone else's. We need to mind our own business especially as regards another culture's religion or morality! It's none of our business.

How would we like it if another country disagreed with some of our systems? Let's say our legal system, death penalty, abortion, starving children, the homeless, and on and on... And they came in here trying to strong arm us into doing things differently for the sake of our own people?




posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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First of all, lets remembe that Turkey is a member of NATO and a big Ally of United States - just like Saudi Arabia, which practises one of the Most Hardcore forms of Sharia Law.

Secondly,
does anybody remember Kosovo Sex Slave Rings during the Yugoslav Civil War?
Guess not anymore, huh?


From the Guardian Nato force 'feeds Kosovo sex trade'

Western troops, policemen, and civilians are largely to blame for the rapid growth of the sex slavery industry in Kosovo over the past five years, a mushrooming trade in which hundreds of women, many of them under-age girls, are tortured, raped, abused and then criminalised, Amnesty International said yesterday.

In a report on the rapid growth of sex-trafficking and forced prostitution rackets since Nato troops and UN administrators took over the Balkan province in 1999, Amnesty said Nato soldiers, UN police, and western aid workers operated with near impunity in exploiting the victims of the sex traffickers.

As a result of the influx of thousands of Nato-led peacekeepers, "Kosovo soon became a major destination country for women trafficked into forced prostitution. A small-scale local market for prostitution was transformed into a large-scale industry based on trafficking, predominantly run by criminal networks."

The international presence in Kosovo continues to generate 80% of the income for the pimps, brothel-owners, and mafiosi who abduct local girls or traffic women mainly from Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia to Kosovo via Serbia, the report said, although the international "client base" for the sex trade has fallen to 20% last year from 80% four years ago.

Up to 2,000 women are estimated to have been coerced into sex slavery in Kosovo, which had seen "an unprecedented escalation in trafficking" in recent years. The number of premises in Kosovo listed by a special UN police unit as being involved in the rackets has swollen from 18 in 1999 to 200 this year.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Related Stories:
Kosovo UN troops 'fuel sex trade'
Amnesty damns UN, NATO over sexual slavery of women in Kosovo
Nato force 'feeds Kosovo sex trade'



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
. We need to mind our own business especially as regards another culture's religion or morality! It's none of our business.


Do you think the British were wrong to outlaw the Hindu practice of Sati (Widow burning) in India?

I don't think it was wrong.
I agree with their decision to outlaw the practice and I think they should try as much as possible to prevent honor killings.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 09:12 AM
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Turkey is an ally, to a point. They wouldn't allow us to set up there and go in to Iraq from the north, fwiw.

We are not Turkey's keeper.

If your intent was to paint the US in a bad light, Souljah, then I guess you have. So uncharacteristic of you though, isn't it? /sarcasm

I guess we could tit-for-tat by pointing out similar UN (and others) misdeeds, but where would that get us?



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 10:55 AM
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Before anyone goes on about how this is another way to show muslim traditions are horible or any other religion for that matter, don't anti-abortionists in the US do a similar thing by trying to stop raped wimen, that get pregnant from being raped, from having the right to an abortion?



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase

An article above mentioned muslim immigrants in Germany doing 'Honor Killings' and they are not alone. It's also happening in places like Denmark.

Exactly, and good spotted. That´s my point. It´s happening all over the world including Denmark, Norway, Sweden, UK, Germany, etc. I bet honor killings happens in the US as well, but maybe you are just not aware of this problem yet? ATS is international. Hopefully this thread will be an eyeopener to everybody. Nowhere did I ask the US to stop the honor killings taking place in Turkey...


edit: minor grammar + added UK, ref: BBC link

[edit on 2005/11/23 by Hellmutt]


xu

posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 11:02 AM
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I am guessing you would need some real info on the subject so;

its unfortunately a fact that these honour killings are practiced in the south-eastern parts of the TR, which she has borders with iran, iraq and syria, and is also carried to other locations with people who integrally migrate.

however this is not a widespread thing as it is thought to be in this thread. the main reason for this is again education, these southeastern parts are mostly formed by clans or native tribes, people there generally belong to one or another, each village or town has its own clan and these clans are somewhat smaller examples of feudal governments in themselves which means, they have this agha ( lord or overlord ) which owns the land and is the head of the clan, head of all the people living in his land. these clans have workers, its own security forces (armed thugs with ak-47s, snipers, anything you can get in blackmarket), and these have their own council formed of the village elders etc. all the vilaggers work in the fields, or other areas (including some shadowy bussinesses) and they get their pay from the aghha, as how agha sees it fit, since the word of the agha in these clans are rule and like if he says die the villager respects it and dies. it is a totally twisted and corrupt circle they formed and these are closed to outside , and law couldnt do anything significant about it, for instance agha or the council decides and needs someone dead,(this can be a member of that clan or another, a more popular figure a writer, a politician, a bussinessman etc.) then this desicion is executed by the pawns of the clan, and when they do it they mostly willingly deliver themselves and testify that they did it by their personal desicion and they get prisoned and the actual criminals wo gave the orders lay in their nests. simply a primitive form of mafia. this is how corrupt it is, the mentality I suppose here is, the agha cared for you your family and supplied you with evreything you need to this date and when he asks you of something in return you should do it without question. plus these clans are frigging rich, you wont believe it the agha is actually owns a ferrari and a heli, mostly because of the weapon smuggling and drug production and traficking.

also these clans are really powerful actually the head of one of these clans was the chosen deputy of his area (naturally) and was in an accident in a luxurious car with, a highrank police official, a former beauty queen, and a militant which later found out to have links with the intel agency and a trunk full of weapons including an illegal sniper-riffle. search for "susurluk incident" for more info. just this event which exposed the mafia-police-politician relations in a car-accident caused many protests for years to come, one of these protests which was quite nice, named "one minue of darkness for everlasting enlightenment", where all the people would turn of their house lights for one minute at 9:00 pm to 9:01 pm everyday, for to authorities to solve and bring clarity to the events yet the investigations somehow got dissolved with empty promises from the authorities.(they simply cant touch "the deep state" even if they wanted to). ok this branched to an off topic subject, back to the subject.

these honour killings are practiced by these clans, which are current in the southeastern regions of the TR, it is not just honour killings there is also the blood feuds where the families would hunt eachother for generations, one would kill a member of the other family and in return the other family would kill a member from this family so on so forth. the sickness here is the way they are raised, they are raised with the ideas these are the normal things and deviations are not acceptable, the key here is education, for instance recently there was a campaign for to convince the parents of the girls mostly in southern regions to send their daughters to school which included a dozens of public figures in tv ads local concerts and aids, because in those regions the girls were not sent to school because they see no point to that, Im sure you get the degree of ignorance in those areas. Im telling again the key is education and the authorities should invest more in those regions, which are mostly forgotten in previous decades in terms of official service. and another shameful thing is the law was categorising honour killings and plain murder in different categories and the honour killings would take slightly less punishment than the other. thanks to EU reforms this was changed.


Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni), other 0.2% (mostly Christians and Jews)


on paper it is true, the religion status field on ID s are filled as Muslim as default, and honestly nobody gives a poo about it. from that 99.8% of "Muslims" if we ask the questions:

"How many of the TR citizens actually evr been in to a mosque once in their life times?"
%25 - %45

"How many of the TR citizens actually visit mosques frequently or in daily basis?"

%5 - %20MAX

you know the term "being a churchgoer" well the people in TR are not much mosquegoers as the islamophobia depicts it.

its again wrong to blame only islam about this, what do those regions, which this honour killings and blood feuds are practiced have in common? islam right? it is not only that, there is the geopgraphical factor and the cultures are not only affected by religions or governments but also geography, this clans are not the inventions of today they come from way past, and existed to this date, possibly the rules may be created for survival and benefit in their creation times, but today it is just twisted and sick. you will see these clans or native tribes in SE border TR, iran, iraq, syria, india pakistan etc. all share a geography and have traditions which come from thousand years past. what will break this chain is education or to counter the raising methods of the children in those regions with modern education rather than dogmas which only benefits the "agha" in functionality. by the way Im not pro-islam, Im anti-religion yet the ignorance, bias and racism I see around forces me to be the sound of common sense in this particular subject. In another context, which do not include racism and islamophobia, I would generally be the one to bash muslims or christians, ironic.


xu

posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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First of all, lets remember that Turkey is a ... a big Ally of United States


thats not a healthy data by itself souljah as it is already pointed out. The corporational links, the deep state and the military could be big allies with US ans Israel yet after the US invasion in iraq and everyone knows it is not about the WMDs the sympathy to US dropped remarkabley when both Bush and son Bush was the pres. yet in Clintons time he did some PR campaigns and got some sympathy, but the public really not that "ally" with the US foreign politics right now as is the whole world.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I'm with dgtempe and Amethyst. We cannot be the keepers for the morality of the world's people.



I disagree.

We are our brothers and sisters keepers.
We cannot stand idly by - we must not remain silent.

We must raise our voices and demand action from our governments and the United Nations.

(For instance, the EU could stop negotiates for full membership with Turkey and ask them to improve its human rights record first. Women's rights have to be protected especially in terms of legal equality, including inheritance, and their right to choose, especially their life partner)



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by Hellmutt
Nowhere did I ask the US to stop the honor killings taking place in Turkey...


No, hun. You didn't ask for it. I'm responding to those who made it about religion and who did suggest that the US should stop it:


Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
This is just one more indication of the great culture divide between Islam and the west. It should also give us that much more motivation to overcome and defeat this kind of rabid theocratic radicalism.


Regardless of whether or not these are Muslims doing this, they are men who are doing the raping and the killing. Shall we blame all men? My point is that it doesn’t matter what religion these people are, there are people of that religion who do not condone this practice at all. It’s a cultural issue, not a religious one!

Yes, some people commit honor killing because of their interpretation of their religion, but not all honor killings are done by Muslims.

This is about a sick and twisted way that men try to control their women. Again, it’s about men. Shall we hate and demean men?


Originally posted by AceOfBase
Do you think the British were wrong to outlaw the Hindu practice of Sati (Widow burning) in India?


Great debate strategy. Not. I don't give a crap about some other practice in some other country. How can the British outlaw something being done in India, anyway? If they outlawed it in Britain, then fine. We can outlaw honor killing here in the states. This is nothing but a diversion.


Originally posted by thematrix
Before anyone goes on about how this is another way to show muslim traditions are horible or any other religion for that matter, don't anti-abortionists in the US do a similar thing by trying to stop raped wimen, that get pregnant from being raped, from having the right to an abortion?


Exactly! And do we think some other country should come in and dictate our abortion laws?


Originally posted by Riwka
We are our brothers and sisters keepers.


Who is our keeper, then? Who gets to designate themselves as the keeper of the USA? Who gets to come in and strong-arm us, and tell the Christians how to behave? Who has the right to come in and change things to the way they think we should be doing things?

And policing the world? That's not working very well for us right now, is it?



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:07 PM
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First of all, thank you to xu for the very excellent and informative summation of tribal structure and gov't.


You have voted xu for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

You have certainly given a new look to this issue, xu. After reading your post, I am convinced that religion is not a factor in this behavior. As you pointed out, the isolation caused by the untamed geography, as well as the corruption that is rampant, are the primary reasons why these clans feel free to govern themselves.

Education is the best step towards fixing this situation because not only will it most likely stop the honor killings, it would stop a whole host of other problems not listed here.


[edit on 23-11-2005 by jsobecky]



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I agree that this is a terrible practice. However, I'm with dgtempe and Amethyst. We cannot be the keepers for the morality of the world's people. We could probably look into every country and every religion and find something that we don't approve of and think needs to change.







Xu has some GREAT information and points. The problems are isolated, and have more to do with geography and clan power than Islam.

Also - there are incredibly strong people working in these areas to educate their people, and open the culture to new ways. I think we need to support these people - not deny their rights and usurp their roles.

Also IMO - we have benefited greatly as a culture, society, and nation by such educational efforts - which we have inherited by various means...



.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

. As you pointed out, the isolation caused by the untamed geography, as well as the corruption that is rampant, are the primary reasons why these clans feel free to govern themselves.



hm. But Danmark, Germany...etc? I think we are talking about different things here.




Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Who gets to designate themselves as the keeper of the USA? Who gets to come in and strong-arm us, and tell the Christians how to behave? Who has the right to come in and change things to the way they think we should be doing things?

And policing the world? That's not working very well for us right now, is it?


I am neither an American citizen, nor am I a Christian, therefore I think I am not within that special "we" in your question.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by Riwka
I am neither an American citizen, nor am I a Christian, therefore I think I am not within that special "we" in your question.


But you could still answer the question, couldn't you? Who polices the USA (or the country in which you're located)? Who gets to designate themselves as the keeper of the world's other countries? And how does that work?

Doesn't it always end in war?



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by thematrix
Before anyone goes on about how this is another way to show muslim traditions are horible or any other religion for that matter, don't anti-abortionists in the US do a similar thing by trying to stop raped wimen, that get pregnant from being raped, from having the right to an abortion?

Please. Having a Pro-Life stance does not equate to what you are implying.


And think about it - how can someone "stop raped wimen, that get pregnant from being raped, from having the right to an abortion? "?



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:37 PM
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from Riwka hm. But Danmark, Germany...etc? I think we are talking about different things here.

I was focusing on Turkey, but I agree, Germany, Denmark are different...

Let me put my thinking cap back on.
I'll get back to this.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

And think about it - how can someone "stop raped wimen, that get pregnant from being raped, from having the right to an abortion? "?


By law. There is a 'Christian element' in the US, at least, that is doing all they can to legally stop ALL women from having abortions, regardless of the reason. Even rape, even if the mother's at risk. Some want to ban abortion 100%.

It's a Christian thing. (Not really - just making a point about attributing these honor killings to Islam)



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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While its immpossible for Turkey to dramatically change its culture quickly, the Turkish government, from the top on down, has to actually prosecute these crimes as crimes, especially if it wants to join the EU.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Please. Having a Pro-Life stance does not equate to what you are implying.


And think about it - how can someone "stop raped wimen, that get pregnant from being raped, from having the right to an abortion? "?


Just as it are the more extreme in the Muslim world that do these Honor-killings and believe in them, so do the more extreme in the christian world support exactly what I said.

As BH said, they even go as far as wanting to ban abortion 100% even if not having an abortion can result in the death of both child and mother.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Honor killings seem to be very widespread in Pakistan.
It's not just one or two here and there and it looks like men are also victims of this.



paktribune: Karo Kari claims 4101 lives in six years

Giving more details in this regard he informed that four thousand one hundred and one men and women were killed in the name of Karo Kari from 1998 to 2003 in all the four provinces. The victims included 1327 men and 2774 women.

He said during this period 675 men were killed in Punjab, 348 in Sindh, 188 in NWFP and 116 in Balochistan in the name of Karo Kari. Similarly 1578 women became victims of honor killing in Punjab, 751 in Sindh, 260 in NWFP and 185 in Balochistan during the same period .



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