Freemasonophobia-fearing the free...

After years of all the dumb, (YES I SAID DUMB!!! IF YOU WANT TO SPECULATE BE BLIND IF NOT THEN JOIN A FRATERNITY!!!) observational strategies one can only ever be faced with joining or walking away. If you really want to know about them then what is the big fear? If you spend any real time considering them and what they are, then you have what it is inside that inspired them to pursue the Craft. I am appalled at the fear of thinking on one's own that draws people to fear or dislike the Freemasons. In fact, the secrecy is the lure or bait you may have not noticed: It is appealing because of the secrecy is it not? That draw brought you this far. 33 degrees and if only there were more adept wielders of the Craft as to modify the public view
on those who (my only real beef because I will not get angry over that which isn't real enough to dwell on) do not realize when they make their comments, and attack the very men that offered the free will and society that they feel they are owed. If one can imagine growing up with no fear, carefree all the time then one shattering blow. I know it isn't true but anything that contains all of the variables usually has some merit to it. Power, success, money, godhood are but a few of the slanderous things men have said of attributes of Masonrye and that is only on the bright side. NEVER allow another to generate irrational behaviour as in emoting for a selfish reason.

Life is spectacular and good. Don't waste it attacking others. There is only war if you make it.

[Edited on 29-9-2003 by Lucifer]

I have no real beef with the people that are drawn to freemasonry. Nor do I have any beef with their search for greatness. I certainly have no fear of them. They act like simple children so that is how I view them.

My anger comes from realizing that while in this body I can only take part in other peoples' reality. It's not the secretiveness of the craft it's the fact that they have to actively subvert the adept and intelligent of society so as to control the less adept and more easily swayed. They don't control by being secret because we would already have surpassed their craft by simple networking and information exchange. No, they control by much more devious means. I wake up everyday and have only a very small portion of free-will and the ability to exercise that will because a few need to stroke their egos by controlling many. Everywhere I look is someone else's reality. There is no space nor resources left to create my reality because it has all been taken up by selfish children.

I don't wish to force my view onto others but others feel it's their right to force theirs on me. This is what I'm adverse to. This is what makes me angry. This is what I will fight. Yes, life is spectacular and good. But how much can I enjoy when I'm not allowed to create? How much can I enjoy when I'm being bombarded with orders, rules and restrictions? It's not my imagination. I have a firm footing in reality only it's not mine, it's someone else's mind created reality.

Every conceivable "out" is blocked as much as possible. Everything that has a glimmer of hope for a better life is weighted down by purposeful stupidity. I would never want to join such an order of imbeciles that are so scared to lose power they can't stand some competition. They are the ones that fear. They fear others might figure their craft out without them.

If they were just secretive and left everyone alone I would have no issue. As I look around I see control mechanisms at every conceivable level. Tell me I am wrong and tell me why. I am open to all new information.

I would care to know what and why: 1:150,000.-lvl 3+?

What do you mean by this?

It isn't phobia, it's nausea. Having read in their own words what they are up to, I despise them.

I am not a freemason but I am a member of another secret order probably pretty much alike masonry!
I can only saythese few little things about it:

I never regret that I joined!

Since 3 and half years of membership I only missed out twice, and that was because the first time I was home pukeing my guts out in a stomachflue and the second I was hospitalized after a car accident!

Even though I am young I have seen alot of life, culture and more then 40 countries. My experiances in the order dont match anything I have been close too.

I made many new friends! Friends that bother, friends that care.

I am having a very good time!

I would certainly recomend anyone who has what it takes and is recomended to join.

what order r u in. im just interested i dont mean to put u under pressure or anything

Magnus- what society did you join? or are you not able to give out the name?

I wouldn't join them if you paid me, they are against the Catholic Church. Here's a good article by Michael Daniel:

"Perhaps no organization has aroused more suspicion and curiosity in the last few hundred years than Freemasonry: suspicion and curiosity because Freemasonry is a secret society. However, most people know that a) membership is reserved to men and b) the Catholic Church has traditionally forbidden Catholic males under pain of excommunication or expulsion from the Church to join the Masons. In recent times, new questions regarding Freemasonry are being asked. Does this penalty still apply? Why are a growing number of non-Catholic Churches speaking out against Freemasonry? This consideration of Freemasonry is not meant to be exhaustive. Rather, it intends to examine some of the core differences between Freemasonry and Christianity (in particular, Catholicism). This discussion is also limited to an analysis of the first three degrees of Freemasonry for two reasons: most Masons never advance higher than the third degree; there is ample material in the ritual for the first three degrees to demonstrate the incompatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity.1 Nor is this article going to address the question of whether Freemasonry is a religion or not. Many Masons respond to Christian objections by stating that Masonry is not a religion. A discussion of whether Masonry is a religion is largely a question of semantics and is at one level largely irrelevant: the focus of an analysis of Freemasonry must be on whether what it actually teaches is compatible with Christianity. To use a comparison: few would argue that communism is a religion. However, Catholics are forbidden to be members of a communist party because communist principles are incompatible with Catholicism.

Critiques of Freemasonry abound, however many of them are neither balanced nor charitable. A balanced critique of Freemasonry requires careful detail to evidence and charity towards Freemasons. It would seem that two extremes are to be avoided.

1. Many critiques of Freemasonry abound, which would have the reader believe that Freemasons are the instigators of the most wicked and (literally) incredible conspiracies. The problem with most of these critiques is that there is usually little if any solid evidence to support the assertions. Such critiques seem to have an adverse effect, in that Masons are liable to dismiss all critiques of Freemasonry as belonging to the "fringe." In his initiation, a Mason is not taught to overthrow or work against the common good. Instead, he is taught to help his neighbor "by rendering him every kind of office which justice or mercy may require, by relieving his necessities and soothing his afflictions and by doing to him as in similar cases you would wish he would do to you."2 Masons are also called to uphold the laws of their land, practice prudence, and truth. This would be particularly true given many of the positive ideals that Masonry espouses. Thus, Masons are known for their community work: in Melbourne for example, The Freemasons' Hospital and the Freemasons' Homes for the Elderly provide a high standard of care and service to the community. Members of the Masons continue to work for the rights of the family, youth, the aged, etc. In our society which is fast experiencing a growth in atheism, Masons as a body not only proclaim a belief in a supreme being, but in addition one in whom (according to the first degree initiation ceremony) they put their trust.

2. On the other hand, in recent years some Catholics have seemed to suggest that membership of Freemasonry in Australia is per se not incompatible with being a Catholic. In a recent edition of the Catholic Weekly (August 17,1997, p. 10), Rev. Bill O'Shea cites a letter by Cardinal Seper (1974) which stated that membership of masonic lodges was forbidden only in those countries in which Masonry manifestly worked against the Catholic Church. Although O'Shea, to his credit, concludes by stating that membership of Freemasonry is forbidden to Catholics, he nevertheless states, vis a vis the Seper letter, that many clergy in Australia at the time could see nothing wrong in a Catholic joining a lodge in Australia, arguing that Freemasonry was little more than a philanthropic society. He then criticizes the Vatican for later forbidding all Catholics membership on the basis that this decision should have been made at the local level.

Why has the Catholic Church traditionally been opposed to Freemasonry? Although some Freemasons claim that Masonry is an ancient institution, reliable scholarship suggests that it can be traced back only as far as 1717, with the formation of the Grand Lodge. From its inception, the Catholic Church condemned Freemasonry, beginning with Clement XI's bull In Eminente (1738). Other statements against Freemasons were issued by successive popes, the most notable being Leo XIII's Humanum Genus (1884). This document must be read in its historical context. Most of the condemnations of Freemasonry contained therein are directed at European lodges which were anti-clerical and anti-papal and which actively worked for the undermining of the Church's rights. Hence, it would seem that much of Leo XIII's critique of Freemasonry is of marginal relevance in late twentieth century Australia and the English-speaking world.

However, there are some elements of Freemasonry, which are perennially incompatible with Catholicism and indeed with Christianity. In his initiation ceremony, a candidate is given a copy of the V.S.L. (Volume of the Sacred Law). Inscribed therein is the following admonition: "As a Freemason you are charged to consider the V. of the S.L. as the unerring standard of Truth and Justice and to regulate your actions by the Divine precepts it contains." For a Protestant, who believes the Bible to be the final authority, this statement presents, at first glance, no problems. However, for a Catholic this statement is problematic since Catholics believe that oral tradition and the magisterium of the Church are essential elements of the matrix of authority.

What, though, is meant by the "Volume of the Sacred Law"? The "Volume of the Sacred Law" is the religious text of the religion of the candidate. Thus, for a Jewish Mason, it will be the Old Testament, the Christian the Bible and the Moslem the Koran. Masonry thus teaches indifferentism, or the belief that one religion is as good as any other religion. Leo XIII's condemnation of Freemasonry on the grounds of indifferentism is thus perennially valid. Christians do not believe that Christianity is as good as any other religion. In St. John's Gospel, Jesus states, "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me." Whilst it is true that following Vatican II, the Catholic Church's attitude towards non-Catholic religious bodies (especially non-Christian religions) has been modified, in that it sees some positive elements in other religions, it still nevertheless firmly teaches that all the redeemed are saved through the person and work of Christ and that Catholicism teaches the fullness of God's revelation.

Perhaps equally incompatible with Christianity is Freemasonry's raison d'etre. According to the initiation ceremony, the candidate about to be presented is in a "state of darkness." Through his initiation ceremony he enters a state of light. The truths of Freemasonry are revealed only to the initiated and are given to him to lead him to the light. This belief is reflected in the blindfolding of the candidate for the first part of the ceremony. Wilmshurst, in The Initiation Ceremony: Analysis and Commentary states "For every Candidate, the Initiation Ceremony implies that whatever academic or scientific learning he possesses, whatever philosophical ideas he holds, whatever religious creed he professes, prior to Initiation, there remains something more � indeed something vastly more � for him yet to learn and to which the Craft can help him."3 Whilst Masons may claim that this is only one Mason's opinion, a careful reading of the initiation ceremony indicates that Wilmshurst accurately reflects its tone. A Christian must ask the question: what more is required than Christ? Or, what state of spiritual darkness is there that can be illumined apart from Christ? A central Christian image of Christ is of Jesus as the "light of the world." According to Christian beliefs, a person casts aside his spiritual darkness and enters a state of spiritual light through faith in Jesus and baptism. In the Catholic Rite of Baptism, the candidate is asked if he rejects "Satan, the father of sin and prince of darkness" and is given a candle with the words "receive the light of Christ." In the Australian Anglican baptism rite (AAPB 1978) immediately after the baptism, the minister says the following to the newly baptized: "You have been called out of darkness into the light of Christ."

By contrast, Freemasonry's raison d'etre mirrors those of mystery cults: all persons are in a state of darkness except members who have been brought to a state of light through participation in the mysteries of the cult. As membership is open only to adult males, does this mean that women, as a result of their gender, are doomed to perpetual darkness?

What are the means Masonry reveals to its members to find enlightenment? Masonry seems to teach that the Mason, through practicing the virtues, gains enlightenment, or to rephrase it, humans, through their own efforts can achieve salvation. This position is known as naturalism. According to naturalism, religions are useful insofar as they teach morality, but are not essential. Leo XIII's condemnation of Freemasonry on these grounds is perennial. Naturalism is incompatible with the doctrine of original sin and the belief that the Christ event was necessary for human salvation: indeed, whilst Freemasonry commends its adherents for trusting in God it makes no mention of the necessity of belief in Christ and him crucified. From what is taught in a lodge a Mason could well come to believe that all that is required of him is that he be a good person and do good works.

Whilst only two elements of Freemasonry have been analyzed in detail above, it is largely for these reasons, namely indifferentism and naturalism, combined with a total lack of reference to the person and work of Christ that Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. It is thus interesting to note the growing number of Protestant churches, who traditionally either approved of or treated Freemasonry with indifference, who have stated publicly that membership of Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity: indeed, Hannah argues that all denominations which have seriously examined Freemasonry's claims have condemned it.4 In an era in which many young people who come from a Christian and particularly a Catholic background believe that one religion is as good as another religion and that all that is required of them is that they be good people, the Christian community as a whole must restate the fundamental differences between itself and Freemasonry. "

Freemasonry is tripe.

both the Masons and the Scottish Rite have tried to get their hands on my husband more than once, thankfully even before I knew anything about them we deemed it a bad idea, as he did not have the time to invest in it.
I know why they want him, and it worries me.
Until recently I did not realise just how much his family history could be a danger to my family.
I love my husband, but we are on opposite sides of the political and social spectrums.
While we respect each others opinions his family still scares the hell out of me.
The more I know, the less I want to say in front of them.

Sounds like your frightened. May I ask why they want him? You don't have to answer if your not comfortable.

When you say masons, what specific branch do you mean? The various rites all have some commonality.

My question is, what is their real mission statement?
After 33 degrees, you have the Mystic Shriners and such, and then you have the Illuminati dudes. They are not just raising money for charity, that is a front to what is really going on. Secrets point to darkness, not light. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Anyone have anything else to add?

I couldn't agree more. I only posted the topic of fearing the freemasons because I, while not a mason, see it as private and as such offered it as a metaphor for how the faiths of the world collide and make war when love one another should be key. Secret societies bring fear and dread to many and the fact is like any faith one has no right to argue another's heartfelt system of spirituality. What makes a person comfortable with life is terribly important when seeking peace.

Originally posted by Cearbhall
Sounds like your frightened. May I ask why they want him? You don't have to answer if your not comfortable.

Fear? I suppose in a sense, yes.
I know enough to know that I do not want my children associated with this fraternity in any way.
As to why they want him, lets just say it has to do with his family history.
As I said, we are an odd pair. I am native american and he is of european decent..
We both have ancestors in the origins of masonry, (I am only half native american).. that does not mean that we want it to continue to run in our family line.

Originally posted by Cearbhall
I wouldn't join them if you paid me, they are against the Catholic Church. Here's a good article by Michael Daniel:

"Perhaps no organization has aroused more suspicion and curiosity in the last few hundred years than Freemasonry: suspicion and curiosity because Freemasonry is a secret society. However, most people know that a) membership is reserved to men and b) the Catholic Church has traditionally forbidden Catholic males under pain of excommunication or expulsion from the Church to join the Masons. In recent times, new questions regarding Freemasonry are being asked. Does this penalty still apply? Why are a growing number of non-Catholic Churches speaking out against Freemasonry? This consideration of Freemasonry is not meant to be exhaustive. Rather, it intends to examine some of the core differences between Freemasonry and Christianity (in particular, Catholicism). This discussion is also limited to an analysis of the first three degrees of Freemasonry for two reasons: most Masons never advance higher than the third degree; there is ample material in the ritual for the first three degrees to demonstrate the incompatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity.1 Nor is this article going to address the question of whether Freemasonry is a religion or not. Many Masons respond to Christian objections by stating that Masonry is not a religion. A discussion of whether Masonry is a religion is largely a question of semantics and is at one level largely irrelevant: the focus of an analysis of Freemasonry must be on whether what it actually teaches is compatible with Christianity. To use a comparison: few would argue that communism is a religion. However, Catholics are forbidden to be members of a communist party because communist principles are incompatible with Catholicism.

Critiques of Freemasonry abound, however many of them are neither balanced nor charitable. A balanced critique of Freemasonry requires careful detail to evidence and charity towards Freemasons. It would seem that two extremes are to be avoided.

1. Many critiques of Freemasonry abound, which would have the reader believe that Freemasons are the instigators of the most wicked and (literally) incredible conspiracies. The problem with most of these critiques is that there is usually little if any solid evidence to support the assertions. Such critiques seem to have an adverse effect, in that Masons are liable to dismiss all critiques of Freemasonry as belonging to the "fringe." In his initiation, a Mason is not taught to overthrow or work against the common good. Instead, he is taught to help his neighbor "by rendering him every kind of office which justice or mercy may require, by relieving his necessities and soothing his afflictions and by doing to him as in similar cases you would wish he would do to you."2 Masons are also called to uphold the laws of their land, practice prudence, and truth. This would be particularly true given many of the positive ideals that Masonry espouses. Thus, Masons are known for their community work: in Melbourne for example, The Freemasons' Hospital and the Freemasons' Homes for the Elderly provide a high standard of care and service to the community. Members of the Masons continue to work for the rights of the family, youth, the aged, etc. In our society which is fast experiencing a growth in atheism, Masons as a body not only proclaim a belief in a supreme being, but in addition one in whom (according to the first degree initiation ceremony) they put their trust.

2. On the other hand, in recent years some Catholics have seemed to suggest that membership of Freemasonry in Australia is per se not incompatible with being a Catholic. In a recent edition of the Catholic Weekly (August 17,1997, p. 10), Rev. Bill O'Shea cites a letter by Cardinal Seper (1974) which stated that membership of masonic lodges was forbidden only in those countries in which Masonry manifestly worked against the Catholic Church. Although O'Shea, to his credit, concludes by stating that membership of Freemasonry is forbidden to Catholics, he nevertheless states, vis a vis the Seper letter, that many clergy in Australia at the time could see nothing wrong in a Catholic joining a lodge in Australia, arguing that Freemasonry was little more than a philanthropic society. He then criticizes the Vatican for later forbidding all Catholics membership on the basis that this decision should have been made at the local level.

Why has the Catholic Church traditionally been opposed to Freemasonry? Although some Freemasons claim that Masonry is an ancient institution, reliable scholarship suggests that it can be traced back only as far as 1717, with the formation of the Grand Lodge. From its inception, the Catholic Church condemned Freemasonry, beginning with Clement XI's bull In Eminente (1738). Other statements against Freemasons were issued by successive popes, the most notable being Leo XIII's Humanum Genus (1884). This document must be read in its historical context. Most of the condemnations of Freemasonry contained therein are directed at European lodges which were anti-clerical and anti-papal and which actively worked for the undermining of the Church's rights. Hence, it would seem that much of Leo XIII's critique of Freemasonry is of marginal relevance in late twentieth century Australia and the English-speaking world.

However, there are some elements of Freemasonry, which are perennially incompatible with Catholicism and indeed with Christianity. In his initiation ceremony, a candidate is given a copy of the V.S.L. (Volume of the Sacred Law). Inscribed therein is the following admonition: "As a Freemason you are charged to consider the V. of the S.L. as the unerring standard of Truth and Justice and to regulate your actions by the Divine precepts it contains." For a Protestant, who believes the Bible to be the final authority, this statement presents, at first glance, no problems. However, for a Catholic this statement is problematic since Catholics believe that oral tradition and the magisterium of the Church are essential elements of the matrix of authority.

What, though, is meant by the "Volume of the Sacred Law"? The "Volume of the Sacred Law" is the religious text of the religion of the candidate. Thus, for a Jewish Mason, it will be the Old Testament, the Christian the Bible and the Moslem the Koran. Masonry thus teaches indifferentism, or the belief that one religion is as good as any other religion. Leo XIII's condemnation of Freemasonry on the grounds of indifferentism is thus perennially valid. Christians do not believe that Christianity is as good as any other religion. In St. John's Gospel, Jesus states, "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me." Whilst it is true that following Vatican II, the Catholic Church's attitude towards non-Catholic religious bodies (especially non-Christian religions) has been modified, in that it sees some positive elements in other religions, it still nevertheless firmly teaches that all the redeemed are saved through the person and work of Christ and that Catholicism teaches the fullness of God's revelation.

Perhaps equally incompatible with Christianity is Freemasonry's raison d'etre. According to the initiation ceremony, the candidate about to be presented is in a "state of darkness." Through his initiation ceremony he enters a state of light. The truths of Freemasonry are revealed only to the initiated and are given to him to lead him to the light. This belief is reflected in the blindfolding of the candidate for the first part of the ceremony. Wilmshurst, in The Initiation Ceremony: Analysis and Commentary states "For every Candidate, the Initiation Ceremony implies that whatever academic or scientific learning he possesses, whatever philosophical ideas he holds, whatever religious creed he professes, prior to Initiation, there remains something more � indeed something vastly more � for him yet to learn and to which the Craft can help him."3 Whilst Masons may claim that this is only one Mason's opinion, a careful reading of the initiation ceremony indicates that Wilmshurst accurately reflects its tone. A Christian must ask the question: what more is required than Christ? Or, what state of spiritual darkness is there that can be illumined apart from Christ? A central Christian image of Christ is of Jesus as the "light of the world." According to Christian beliefs, a person casts aside his spiritual darkness and enters a state of spiritual light through faith in Jesus and baptism. In the Catholic Rite of Baptism, the candidate is asked if he rejects "Satan, the father of sin and prince of darkness" and is given a candle with the words "receive the light of Christ." In the Australian Anglican baptism rite (AAPB 1978) immediately after the baptism, the minister says the following to the newly baptized: "You have been called out of darkness into the light of Christ."

By contrast, Freemasonry's raison d'etre mirrors those of mystery cults: all persons are in a state of darkness except members who have been brought to a state of light through participation in the mysteries of the cult. As membership is open only to adult males, does this mean that women, as a result of their gender, are doomed to perpetual darkness?

What are the means Masonry reveals to its members to find enlightenment? Masonry seems to teach that the Mason, through practicing the virtues, gains enlightenment, or to rephrase it, humans, through their own efforts can achieve salvation. This position is known as naturalism. According to naturalism, religions are useful insofar as they teach morality, but are not essential. Leo XIII's condemnation of Freemasonry on these grounds is perennial. Naturalism is incompatible with the doctrine of original sin and the belief that the Christ event was necessary for human salvation: indeed, whilst Freemasonry commends its adherents for trusting in God it makes no mention of the necessity of belief in Christ and him crucified. From what is taught in a lodge a Mason could well come to believe that all that is required of him is that he be a good person and do good works.

Whilst only two elements of Freemasonry have been analyzed in detail above, it is largely for these reasons, namely indifferentism and naturalism, combined with a total lack of reference to the person and work of Christ that Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity. It is thus interesting to note the growing number of Protestant churches, who traditionally either approved of or treated Freemasonry with indifference, who have stated publicly that membership of Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity: indeed, Hannah argues that all denominations which have seriously examined Freemasonry's claims have condemned it.4 In an era in which many young people who come from a Christian and particularly a Catholic background believe that one religion is as good as another religion and that all that is required of them is that they be good people, the Christian community as a whole must restate the fundamental differences between itself and Freemasonry. "

Freemasonry is tripe.

I am not a mason but I know several people who are and this is not what I have learned from them.

You state that the masons are against the Catholic Church, to me it seems in your writings it is more that the Catholic Church are against freemasonry.

Going from darkness to light is common in orders. going to light has a symbolic value. like being enlightened.

Originally posted by Lucifer
I couldn't agree more. I only posted the topic of fearing the freemasons because I, while not a mason, see it as private and as such offered it as a metaphor for how the faiths of the world collide and make war when love one another should be key. Secret societies bring fear and dread to many and the fact is like any faith one has no right to argue another's heartfelt system of spirituality. What makes a person comfortable with life is terribly important when seeking peace.

Why secret?
This is what so many ask.
I am not a mason, as told earlier, but a member of another secret order and I think that many of the secret orders have somewhat the same rules and tradition.

Tradition! That is a word that is carefully taken care of in action in many orders. Tradition and symbolism.

I can not speak of masons but of the order I belong to.
Let's start in Paris 1942.
Imagine you are somewhat questioned about the catholic church and met people who are protestant and you have switched from catholism to protestantism.
At this place, and this time you live dangerous. Your friends/brothers have invited you into an order, a secret order. Because if anyone finds out you may be prosecuted or even killed for being a protestant.
Being a protestant is not better by being a martyr.
Therefor the order was secret and by tradition (which is very important in orders to get the full insights) it still is.

This explains also why many orders are for men only. At those times, the man was head over the family! No discussion!

Another thing why things are secret!
When you become a member or go on to the next grade you will experiance something that you have not experianced before. You will learn from it and in a special way, usally thru symbolism and old traditions.
If these things were not secret it would take away the point of it all since the person would not get the learning feeling.

Originally posted by mulberryblueshimmer
Magnus- what society did you join? or are you not able to give out the name?

Black Eagle Order (In USA: Brotherhood of Balck Eagle)

I can understand the secret stuff in a way, but here in the united states where there is freedom of religion in this day of age I think there is something to hide. My own family members, father and, grandfathers, have been tight lipped/silent when asked any specific or general questions. I have gotten more information out of masons that are my friends. It's kind of like being passively discourged to not make the mistake. Some of my friends want me to join only because they might have something to gain. The silence from my father makes me really wonder why. He never took it any further then DeMolay. Both of my Grandfaters went all of the way, 33 degress and beyond.

Originally posted by duncanidaho
I can understand the secret stuff in a way, but here in the united states where there is freedom of religion in this day of age I think there is something to hide. My own family members, father and, grandfathers, have been tight lipped/silent when asked any specific or general questions. I have gotten more information out of masons that are my friends. It's kind of like being passively discourged to not make the mistake. Some of my friends want me to join only because they might have something to gain. The silence from my father makes me really wonder why. He never took it any further then DeMolay. Both of my Grandfaters went all of the way, 33 degress and beyond.

I know what you mean! Sweden is also a open country with religous freedom but it comes to tradition in this aspect. Tradition is very important here.
Also as mentioned, people will not get the full experiance if they allready know what will happen.

I am somewhat surprised that you are so questioning about it all when both you father and grandfather was members. If I were you I would trust them to have been members of this because they liked it.

I am not sure your friends have anything to gain, maybee they just think that they want you in because they feel that you have something to give and share of your fine person and also that your person would gain from the membership. This is most likely.

Also my father had his lips sealed about any questions I asked about the order I am in. And after joining, I am happy and content with that.

Thanks for your thoughts. As you can see, I am really on the fence about this. Satan has got his minions everywhere. I don't want to have anything to do with an organization which has a mystery master.

Originally posted by duncanidaho
Thanks for your thoughts. As you can see, I am really on the fence about this. Satan has got his minions everywhere. I don't want to have anything to do with an organization which has a mystery master.

OK, I am not trying to enroll you, I am not even a Mason but member of another secret order. But, do you feel that your father and your grandfathers worked for Satan? Honestly?

Mag,
Most freemasons don't even know what goes on in the higher levels of the fraternity and most never will. They believe it is just a social thing and they meet each other for cook outs or whatnot. The higher ups carefully pick individuals to join them in the inner circle so to speak. Here is just one example in history of what the freemasons did to the Church:

"Masonry set up the Temple of Jerusalem and sent heir-descendant of Hiram Abiud to Rome to establish the two Temples of Rome and of Achaea. After the members of the latter two temples killed St. Peter and St. Andrew, the Temple of Rome became the presider of all temples in the East. The heir-descendant of Moab Levy was sent Russia, that of Adoniram to Gaul (France) and those of the successor of Abiud to Germany. The movement initiated by the Mysterious Force did not expand greatly due to the fear created by its name. Joseph Levy and Abraham Abiud, heir-descendants of Moab Levy and Hiram Abiud, were sent from Russia and Germany to London where they met John Desaguliers, who was a Protestant with intense hatred for Catholics. The three agreed on naming the Association : Freemasonry on August 25, 1716. Then on June 24, 1717, they met with the associations of architects and builders in London and officially launched the Association with the new name. Since 1717, the temples were changed to lodges."