What Really Happened on 9/11?

Originally posted by zoso28
While i agree that the collapse of WTC 7 is suspicious, that does not mean i believe that the US government is responsible for 9/11. Have you ever thought about the level of secrecy that would have to be maintained and the vast numbers of people who would have to remain quiet.

This has been answered over and over on ATS...

Do you know how the government works? Departmentalisation? Need to Know?

Government employees only know what they need to know, they never have enough of the whole picture to know what they are really doing or are a part of. I000's could be involved but they would have no idea of the full implications of what they are doing.
The only ppl who would have to know the whole picture is the few at the top who are pulling the strings.

Anyway I don't think it would take thousands to pull this off. A small dedicated group of people can achieve far more than you seem to realise.


[edit on 22/11/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by zoso28

I feel sorry for fellow Americans who live their life believing that their govt is plotting and planning the way I hear about so often in these forums. It must lead to a miserable existance.

Yes, and contracting syphilus "just to see what happens" is a better way of living? Don't believe me? The government has officially claimed responsibility in giving the black men in a town in Alabama (I think) syphilus. If they can do such a thing as this, doesn't it become clear that they are capable of doing far worse?

How about lying to go to war? A lier will always be a liar. I feel sorry for fellow Americans that sit there complacent to watch "desperate housewifes" and eat potatoe chips not thinking about anything. What a way to go through life.

Originally posted by ANOK
Anyway I don't think it would take thousands to pull this off. A small dedicated group of people can achieve far more than you seem to realise.

So did this small group personally wire up the towers for demolition, or did they trick people into creating the most precise demolition job ever seen?

Just to give you an idea of what it takes to prepare a much smaller building for demolition.

www.controlled-demolition.com...

In 24 days, CDI's 12 person loading crew placed 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on 9 levels of the structure. Over 36,000 ft. of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay devices were installed in CDI's implosion initiation system. As the implosion required the detonation of a total of 2,728 lb. of explosives, CDI implemented 36 “primary delays" and an additional 216 “micro-delays" in the implosion initiation sequence in an attempt to keep detonation overpressure to a minimum.

So 24 days with 12 people for a building probably a third of the WTC. You need at least those people wiring the building to know and you'd need more than twelve people to pull something like that off.

When was it that someone had complete access to set up the demolition on practically every floor?

If you believe the "official" story, and I think you do, how is it sooooo hard for people to believe that not many explosives would have to be put in place. Yes, a normal demolition takes a lot of explosives...but on 9-11, it wasn't a normal demolition. If you can believe that the planes and fire themselves can bring down the building, why can't you fathom that only a few more explosives would be needed?

BTW...IMO the only way to bring down the bottom inner columns would have been with explosives.....and YES, I AM a structural engineer.....credentials given upon request.

I feel it was a combination of planes, fire AND explosives. But that's my opinion.

Not sure if it was inside or not but it points more toward our homeland than extremist Muslims.

[edit on 23-11-2005 by MacMerdin]

Originally posted by MacMerdin
If you can believe that the planes and fire themselves can bring down the building, why can't you fathom that only a few more explosives would be needed?

That right there is the key MacMerdin.

If you believe it would only take a few more explosives, why can't you believe that the plane and fire were enough?

If it only took a few explosives, then the plane and fire would have been enough. If only one floor needed to fail then that validates the progressive collapse theory.

Many of the demo theories require the whole building being lined with explosives. The squib theories and the explosive ejection of debris theories all require massive amounts of demo charges.

When I see all the evidence that points in the direction of US involvement at high levels regarding 911 and then see the many people still refusing to admit to it, that the official version is off. I think of that movie, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" All the ones still thinking 911 went down exactly the way the Commission said it did are the ones that have been taken over by the Body Snatchers,,,basically :The Pod People. Soon they will all start pointing at the non believers and making those funny noises when someone challenges their cherished official gov version and we will be carted off to an Israeli death camp..

Originally posted by ANOK
[Government employees only know what they need to know, they never have enough of the whole picture to know what they are really doing or are a part of. I000's could be involved but they would have no idea of the full implications of what they are doing.
The only ppl who would have to know the whole picture is the few at the top who are pulling the strings.[edit on 22/11/2005 by ANOK]

Are you kidding me? Come on man you are better than that. It takes a few hundred people to wire up a decent sized building to implode it. The twin towers were at least decent sized buildings, it would take weeks and hundreds to rig each building. Also, someone has to alter 4 commercial airliners or commercial cargo planes and get rid of the passengers. It all depends on which conspiracy theory you believe. It goes on and on. To think a couple of people in the right position could pull 9/11 off is just crazy.

Bottom line is people believe what they want to believe. It is apparent by the pictures on your postings you are anti-Bush, so you believe and will accept just about anything that goes against Bush and Co..

Again, i am on the fence about a few things that happened that day. I believe that radical islamic terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings. So be it. But there is enough questionable evidence to support that something else may have happened without stretching to say a few guys with some TNT and a R/C transmitter pulled off 9/11

Originally posted by zoso28

Originally posted by ANOK
[Government employees only know what they need to know, they never have enough of the whole picture to know what they are really doing or are a part of. I000's could be involved but they would have no idea of the full implications of what they are doing.
The only ppl who would have to know the whole picture is the few at the top who are pulling the strings.[edit on 22/11/2005 by ANOK]

Are you kidding me? Come on man you are better than that. It takes a few hundred people to wire up a decent sized building to implode it. The twin towers were at least decent sized buildings, it would take weeks and hundreds to rig each building. Also, someone has to alter 4 commercial airliners or commercial cargo planes and get rid of the passengers. It all depends on which conspiracy theory you believe. It goes on and on. To think a couple of people in the right position could pull 9/11 off is just crazy.

Bottom line is people believe what they want to believe. It is apparent by the pictures on your postings you are anti-Bush, so you believe and will accept just about anything that goes against Bush and Co..

Again, i am on the fence about a few things that happened that day. I believe that radical islamic terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings. So be it. But there is enough questionable evidence to support that something else may have happened without stretching to say a few guys with some TNT and a R/C transmitter pulled off 9/11

And there are more folks on the planet that believe the way you do which means the insanity will continue and evil will continue to rule over the masses.

I have no problem with that

enjoy

Originally posted by MacMerdin
Yes, and contracting syphilus "just to see what happens" is a better way of living? Don't believe me? The government has officially claimed responsibility in giving the black men in a town in Alabama (I think) syphilus. If they can do such a thing as this, doesn't it become clear that they are capable of doing far worse?
:

Thats a pretty big leap from some unjust human experiments to 9/11. Granted, the US has been guilty of alot of injustices in the past. From human experiments to false imprisonment. But a good majority of the injustices have been uncovered in recent times and brought to light by the media. A conspiracy the size of what would be required to pull off 9/11 occurred, the media would expose that also. Plus, most people seem to believe the majority of the media are liberals and Bush haters. Don't you think these people are dying to nail George W. Yet there has yet to be any LEGITIMATE media uncover any conspiracy.

Originally posted by magnito_student

Originally posted by zoso28

Originally posted by ANOK
[Government employees only know what they need to know, they never have enough of the whole picture to know what they are really doing or are a part of. I000's could be involved but they would have no idea of the full implications of what they are doing.
The only ppl who would have to know the whole picture is the few at the top who are pulling the strings.[edit on 22/11/2005 by ANOK]

Are you kidding me? Come on man you are better than that. It takes a few hundred people to wire up a decent sized building to implode it. The twin towers were at least decent sized buildings, it would take weeks and hundreds to rig each building. Also, someone has to alter 4 commercial airliners or commercial cargo planes and get rid of the passengers. It all depends on which conspiracy theory you believe. It goes on and on. To think a couple of people in the right position could pull 9/11 off is just crazy.

Bottom line is people believe what they want to believe. It is apparent by the pictures on your postings you are anti-Bush, so you believe and will accept just about anything that goes against Bush and Co..

Again, i am on the fence about a few things that happened that day. I believe that radical islamic terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings. So be it. But there is enough questionable evidence to support that something else may have happened without stretching to say a few guys with some TNT and a R/C transmitter pulled off 9/11

And there are more folks on the planet that believe the way you do which means the insanity will continue and evil will continue to rule over the masses.

I have no problem with that

enjoy

If more people believe that way, as you claim, then wouldn't that make us the masses/majority?

"I have no problem with that"/ Please explain

Originally posted by magnito_student
When I see all the evidence that points in the direction of US involvement at high levels regarding 911 and then see the many people still refusing to admit to it, that the official version is off. I think of that movie, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" All the ones still thinking 911 went down exactly the way the Commission said it did are the ones that have been taken over by the Body Snatchers,,,basically :The Pod People. Soon they will all start pointing at the non believers and making those funny noises when someone challenges their cherished official gov version and we will be carted off to an Israeli death camp..

Magnito student.


I have repeatedly said on this board that I think it is highly probable that the Administration had prior knowledge. I do not pretend to know how deep that knowledge was.

That being said, I do support the "official story" if by that you mean the WTC towers were brought down by hijacked airliners and the intense multi-story fires that followed.


I think it entirely plausible that the administration let the attacks happen through incompetence, or more likely design.

That is an easy conspiracy to cover up, and if true they have been fairly successful at it.

Exotic controlled demolition techniques with backwards timing and R/C detonators used on two of the biggest buildings in the world with no one noticing is ludicrous, IMHO.

There are different degrees to both sides of the demo argument, and calling a whole group "pod people" who can't think for themselves is pretty disingenuous when you consider the amount of trickery and outright lies available on most pro demo sites, and often repeated here.

[edit on 23-11-2005 by LeftBehind]

@Zoso (you a Zep fan?)

Well I didn't say there wouldn't be a lot of ppl involved. You're taking what i said too literaly.

It would only take a small group of people to organize the event.

The people used would only know their small part of the picture and could be easily fooled into thinking they were doing something totaly unrelated.

Plus a government contract is very lucrative and IMO would be enough motivation for a company to exept and stay quiet about the job they did.
And seeing as Bush's own brother is part owner of the security company for United airlines, American airlines AND the WTC complex, doesn't that make you go HMMMMMM??

What about all the evidence removed before an investigation was done, who did that? The company that placed the explosives?
I don't see anyone coming fwd from that company to admit they took evidence away?

And when you hear things like this from NY city firemen...

[W]e originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.? Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory said: ?I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they . . . blow up a building. . . ?? Firefighter Richard Banaciski said: ?[T]here was just an explosion. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.?

]Decosta Wright, a medical technician, said: ?I think the fourth floor was on fire. . . . [W]e were like, are you guys going to put that fire out?? Chief Thomas McCarthy said: ?[T]hey were waiting for 7 World Trade to come down. . . . They had . . . fire on three separate floors . . . , just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said ?we know.? But the Commission says nothing about this decision not to fight the fires, based on advance knowledge that the building was going to collapse.

Source:
uci.net...

6.5 seconds. This is a mere 0.5 seconds more than freefall in a vacuum. To restate this, a rock dropped from the 47th floor would have taken at least 6 seconds to hit the ground. WTC7, in its entirety, fell to the earth in 6.5 seconds. Now, recall, we're supposed to believe that each floor of the building "pancaked" on the one below. Each of the 47 floors supposedly pancaked and collapsed, individually. Yet WTC7 reached the ground in 0.5 seconds longer than freefall. Is this really possible?
So the towers fell within 0.8-4.8 seconds of freefall in a vacuum. Just like WTC7, this speed seemed impossible if each of the 110 floors had to fail individually.

Source:
www.physics911.net...

How do you explain this IF there were no pre-planted explosives!??

[edit on 23/11/2005 by ANOK]

Just because there are explosions heard does not neam the were caused by bombs placed to implode the building. An airplane with thousands of gallons of fuel had hit the building and exploded, causing massive fires over several floors. Things blow up in fires.

Oh, and you think firemen who, you know, put out building fires, would not think of that themselves??

And what would explode like that? Desks, water coolers, partitions?
These were OFFICES, I don't think they store that much explosives in offices do they? They were no simular reports of explosions in the Madrid fire.

C'mon man put ALL the pieces together. You can nit pick the details to death but when you put everything together it just doesn't add up.

I know you're trying hard to justify believing the official story, but try to be honest with yourself and look at ALL the evidence as a whole. It just doesn't add up!!

And I notice you conveniantly ignore the freefall speed of the collapse??
No answer for that one is there?
Fire or no fire, plane impact or no plane impact, you can't argue the physics of the collapse. They would not fall that fast, with no resistance, without a lot of help i.e. explosives.

[edit on 23/11/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by ANOK
And I notice you conveniantly ignore the freefall speed of the collapse??
No answer for that one is there?

Free fall? Hardly. Allow me to illustrate the difference. (forgive the crappy mspaint job)

Lmmmmmmfao

Thanks for clarifying, LB.

Now we won't have to wonder how the towers fell so fast anymore, and why the collapse speed didn't slow even though the caps had been mostly destroyed, enormous amounts of energy were being spent the whole time, and there wasn't so much as a retard all the way down. Because it wasn't literally free fall, so...

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Free fall? Hardly. Allow me to illustrate the difference. (forgive the crappy mspaint job)

DOH!! So I guess 0.5 second difference between free fall is enough to convince you eh?

Do you really think that 47 floors is only going to cause 0.5 seconds of resistance?

Who do you think you're arguing with 3 year olds?

Read this again....

6.5 seconds. This is a mere 0.5 seconds more than freefall in a vacuum. To restate this, a rock dropped from the 47th floor would have taken at least 6 seconds to hit the ground. WTC7, in its entirety, fell to the earth in 6.5 seconds. Now, recall, we're supposed to believe that each floor of the building "pancaked" on the one below. Each of the 47 floors supposedly pancaked and collapsed, individually. Yet WTC7 reached the ground in 0.5 seconds longer than freefall. Is this really possible?
So the towers fell within 0.8-4.8 seconds of freefall in a vacuum. Just like WTC7, this speed seemed impossible if each of the 110 floors had to fail individually.

uhhh is that WTC7 LeftBehind ? Because it doesn't look like it but could be wrong.
Please clarify, thanks


Edit -
I thought WTC7 "fell" from debris ? What on earth is that explosion in that pic ?

[edit on 23-11-2005 by ImJaded]

When Anok brought up free fall speeds I assumed he was talking about all the towers since this is what he said.

And I notice you conveniantly ignore the freefall speed of the collapse??
No answer for that one is there?
Fire or no fire, plane impact or no plane impact, you can't argue the physics of the collapse. They would not fall that fast, with no resistance, without a lot of help i.e. explosives.

I assumed he was using "they" to mean all the towers, especially since he brought up the planes.



Thanks Bsbray, I didn't think it was funny until I saw your post. That picture is pretty ridiculous. It's good that we can disagree so much and still share a laugh.

Originally posted by ImJaded
uhhh is that WTC7 LeftBehind ? Because it doesn't look like it but could be wrong.
Please clarify, thanks


Edit -
I thought WTC7 "fell" from debris ? What on earth is that explosion in that pic ?

[edit on 23-11-2005 by ImJaded]

I believe that picture is of the North Tower, WTC1. WTC7 is the building in the middle of the pic there, behind the forefront building.