ATS.C: ATStrogen 01

PODcast: ATStrogen 01
parrhesia and Valhall explore important issues that have been removed from the public consciousness via media neglect.

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Not a bad first show girls. I think SO and Springer have their hands full.

I had forgotten all about that reservation incident and didn't realize that there were still ongoings remaining from it and that it was blacked out.

PODcast: ATStrogen 01 (reply 1)
My thoughts on SSRI's

length: 07:20
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I was not sure what to expect, but it sure exceeded all my expectations. Of all the shows being made on ATS Podcasts it is the most involving one yet. It is one that invites the most from what ATS stands for.

I look forward to hearing more!

Also, could you provide links to what you were talking about in the show? Especially the Lympic stuff, it sounded very interesting.

Keep up the good work!!

Great show ladies.

The points regarding the tsunami have definately been "swept under the rug" by western media.

The part that really hit close to home for me was regarding SSRIs.

Back in the early 90s, while still in highschool, I nearly lost one of my closest childhood friends to a "miracle" drug, in a manner of speaking.

He started feeling progressively worse over a week or two period, very run down and tired, and went to the doctor.

The doctor talked to him for a while, briefly looked him over, and concluded that he was obviously depressed then began singing praises of a fairly new "miracle drug" that would be perfect for him.

Keep in mind, we were not gradeschool children but instead in our mid teens and his family had no prior history of depression.

The doctor gave him a prescription for zoloft and told him to "come back in two weeks to tell me how wonderful you feel", and that he might not feel any better (and possibly a little worse) for a week to a week and a half while his system got used to the adjustment.

Well, he went back feeling absolutely miserable, high fever, abdominal pains, etc. so the doc checked him a bit more thoroughly and said "you can stop taking the zoloft", he'd had a kidney infection, and "we need to put you on antibiotics instead".

By this time, they had to fill him so full of antibiotics that it killed off much of the helpful flora in the intestines, that help to digest foods, so he couldn't keep down solid food for many weeks after, and, it took months for a "full recovery".

At the time, they were so quick to jump to depression and "miracle drugs" as the cure all answer that it nearly cost my friend his life from blood poisoning.

Also, this was a well respected physician, not some two bit scheister; both his father and my mother worked/work for the same fortune 500 company with excellent insurance benefits so, "money was no object" so to speak.

Back to 2005, again, great 1st show.

Parr, great voice and points presented.

Sounds like "kitty" was impressed too

Val, loved the accent and your points as well.

Glad to hear yor son has done so well, but being raised by you and Springer, I don't see how it could have turned out any other way.

Both, great chemestry and I look forward to the next show.


[edit on 11/21/05 by redmage]

parrhesia did such a good job on recording this and getting it up. I'm in the throws of a major head cold so I sounded like Froggy the Gremlin. LMAO!

Great job, parr!

Here is some information on some of the topics we referenced and may discuss in more depth in the future:

The cover up on Paxil

20/20

48 Hours

A Psychology Today article on how Paxil induces suicidal thoughts:

Paxil brings Suicidal Thoughts

Limbic System

Mapping the Brain - Webmd

anger is generated by a tiny nugget of tissue which is buried quite deep in what is called the limbic system. This area is not in itself conscious but it is the seat of our emotions. This seems a strange idea because we are used to thinking of emotions as being conscious feelings but, in fact, the consciousness of an emotion like anger is only a secondary effect. Emotion itself is primarily a bodily reaction to an outside stimulus. If something comes into the vicinity which is threatening, the bit of tissue which generates anger is called the amygdala and every stimulus that comes in through our sensory organs passes through the amygdala. If it is dangerous or threatening or in any other way signficant, the amygdala will be activated. It will start to light up like an alarm. When this happens, it sends signals to the hypothalamus which is very close to it. That part of the brain sets in motion a huge bodily reaction which results in all the familiar feelings of anger or fear -- butterflies in the stomach, weak knees, heart beat thumping, and so on. In human beings, however, it has a second effect. The amygdala is also very closely connected by neuro pathways to the frontal lobes of the brain and when it becomes active, it sends messages up these pathways to the frontal cortex which is what makes them into a conscious feeling. That is what produces what we talk about as anger. In people who do not have these neuro pathways, for example, some types of psychopath, the get the physical reactions but they do not necessarily get the conscious feeling of anger.

Just one paper by a neurologist on how disorders (this one is about RSD which I'm unfamiliar with) are misdiagnosed as neurosis, psychosis or malingering:

PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECTS OF RSD

The distressful, complex, chronic, regional pain syndrome of RSD, is felt from periphery all the way to the spinal cord, brain stem, thalamus up to the limbic system where the sensory input ends in the cerebral hemispheres. This sensory input is completely different from the somatic sensory input which ends up in the parietal lobe in post central gyrus of the opposite hemisphere. The sympathetic sensory input in the cerebral hemispheres is exclusively in the mesial-frontal and temporal regions (limbic system) of the brain (Benarrock, Mayo Clinic Proceedings, October 1993). The limbic system has the main function of emotional control, influence on memory, judgment, and mood.

The input of the sympathetic impulses into the limbic system on long term basis results in irritability, agitation, depression, insomnia, and poor judgment.

An interesting paper on how a limbic system dysfunction could be the cause of symptoms associated with chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia syndrome and related neural network disorders:

Betrayal of the Brain

Now - let me ask you this, because we have at least one member on this board that is battling a chronic condition that falls in this category. Wouldn't it just be a pisser to find out that you could get out of pain, get out of chronic fatigue by simply taking an epilepsy medicine?

Yep - it damned sure would, wouldn't it?

There are papers on limbic dysfunctions being misdiagnosed as PTSD, ADHD, and many other conditions.

[edit on 11-21-2005 by Valhall]

Great job, ladies! I look forward to many more!

I couldn't agree more on the SSRI segment.
My Skunk Works thread on the Drugging of Amerca:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am a firm believer that proper nutrition, exercise and spiritual health focus is the first and best line of defense against 'Prozac Nation'. People need to attend to this country's children's emotional and physical needs instead of popping a pill for everything.

And I want to emphasize the importance of taking control of our own health! Education is the best way to avoid becoming one of the 12-medication-dependent elderly of the future.

FredT,

Thank you so much for your reply. And give Matthew a big hug from me because he was the cutest! I want to listen to music daddy!!!! LOL

Here's a real-life story on what Paxil can do to a person when it is

1. prescribed when it shouldn't be,
2. prescribed by a physician who does not know everything he should,
3. prescribed without adequate monitoring or consultation.

1998:

In the second half of 1998 there was a person who began stalking me. This person was relentless and apparently intended harm to me and the manner in which they were conducting themselves, and the situations they were setting up was getting more and more threatening to my safety, as well as my loved ones safety. The cops were ineffectual in getting the situation under control, because you basically have to have evidence some one has hurt you, before you can prevent them from hurting you ** - which is a jicked up situation in my opinion.

In September of that year this person went way over the line and caused a series of events that almost got me seriously injured if not killed, and placed one of my loved ones is a very dangerous situation. After this event occurred, I started having anxiety attacks. I had never had anxiety attacks in my life, so I didn't know what was happening. I thought I was having heart problems because when this would happen I would have intense pain in my chest and not be able to breathe.

So I get scared that I'm having heart issues but I didn't even have a family physician because I hadn't ever really needed one since moving from college to work. So I actually have to go back to my doctor who had been my g.p. through my teenage years and who had delivered my children, because he at least knew who I was. I tell him about my symptoms and he questions me about if there is anything going on in my life, and I tell him about what is happening, and the event that had recently taken place. And he tells me I'm having anxiety attacks.

***

We can insert here that 1. that would have been sufficient, because all I was there for was to find out if I was having heart problems. If I know what's wrong, I can deal with it. At this point I was 34 years old and had never had anxiety issues, so it wasn't like I was dealing with a chronic problem. 2. Had I been an active participant in my medical treatment I would have at this point said "great! okay, I'll learn to breathe deep and get through this". But I checked my brain at the door.

***

So without even hesitating my doc writes this prescription for Paxil because it has an "anti-anxiety constituent". I had never even heard of this drug. So he tells me take this dose for 2 weeks, then start taking double that dose from then on and come back and see me in 3 weeks.

I never made it to three weeks.

The doc did not go over any adverse affects/symptoms I should be watching for - and me the brainless patient, I didn't ask either. It never even crossed my mind.

Within a week of taking the initial daily dose I started having severe exhaustion. I was a single mom with lots and lots of stuff on my plate, and still dealing with the psycho person pulling their crap and I just wrote off my unending need to sleep as being worn out from everything. It was so bad that when I would get home from work I would have to immediately take a nap, and then even with a daily nap I couldn't stay awake past about 9 o'clock. I never once considered it was because of the medicine.

So I take the initial dose for 2 weeks and on the 15th day I double it just as I was told to do. Start taking one pill in the morning and one in the evening. Two days in to the doubled dose I tried to kill myself.

I've never had any problem with depression. I've never had to see psychiatrist or psychologist. I weathered massive storms in my life and never felt like ending it, or considering giving up. But on that day - something separated.

I remember going to work and around 10:30 in the morning I absolutely was so tired and sleepy that I had to take off work and go home. I felt so exhausted that I felt like if I laid down and went to sleep I might not be able to wake up to pick my kids up from school. So around 11 a.m. I called my best friend and asked her if she would call me at 2:30 to make sure I had woke up.

I barely remember the phone call that woke me up at 2:30. It's just this little bitty faint thing. I do NOT remember picking my kids up from school. I do NOT remember what I did with my kids once I picked them up, but I learned from my blessed mother what happened. Apparently some time after returning home from picking them up I called my mother and told her that I was going to have to go to work early the next morning and that I needed her to come get my kids and keep them over night so that she could get them to school. I do not remember that phone call at all.

I do not remember my mother coming by and getting my kids.

I do not have any idea when the events I do remember took place. But this is what I can tell you.

I felt like I was ont he outside of my body. And what I mean by that is that all emotion that is "me" was removed and I was an empty body that could think, but had absolutely no emotion. At some point (and you have to assume it was before I called my mother and asked her to come get my kids because the only reason I could have possibly wanted to do that was to get them out of the house so I could do what I did - but I don't remember that point), I decided that I was too tired (and by that I mean physically tired) to go on. All I wanted to do was sleep - forever. And there are only snapshots of that evening that I remember. But all of them I recall are without emotion, as if I was a robot. I was very logical and methodical.

I can remember rounding up all the medications in my house and counting what I had. I can remember going to the internet and looking up the maximum dose survived by one of the medications I had a lot of. I can remember counting that medication again to make sure it EXCEEDED the dose I found on the internet. I can't remember taking it. I can remember I did not feel sad, depressed, scared or anything else. I just had a single thought that I was too tired to go on, and that the only reasonable thing to do was to go to sleep forever...because in my mind it was clear that I just couldn't get up another day...I was too tired to do it.

I was in a coma for three days.

***
The failures that led to what happened with me, and that almost took my life at my own hands:

1. The doctor should have never have prescribed this drug to me in the first place. I had no history of an anxiety disorder, or depression. And I had set right there and told him about the extraordinary circumstances I was dealing with.

2. The doctor should have never have sent me home for three weeks on this class of drugs. That's far too long to go on a drug that the pre-FDA research showed 60% tendency toward homicidal/suicidal tendencies. But he didn't know that. No one knew it.

3. I was an idiot for not just doing what FredT suggested - getting a second opinion; researching what I was about to take; asking more questions, or just refusing to take the stuff. I'd never been on a maintenance drug in my life. When I look back, I'm supposing that the scary feelings the anxiety attacks were giving me (that my heart was going to stop) may have led me to do something I normally wouldn't do. But to add insult to stupidity, I didn't even know what I was taking. I didn't ask any questions, I didn't know that the medication I was being prescribed was a anti-depressant as well as an anti-anxiety medication. I didn't know anything other than the doc told me this would make my chest stop hurting. I just put the pill in my mouth. I didn't even bother reading the paperwork that came with the stuff, and to this day can't tell you if it would have had something that would have alerted me. Hopefully it does now...but you have to have the gray matter to read the darned thing first. All I knew was that I had something happening that made me feel like my heart was going to explode and my doc told me this stuff would stop that. GULP.

When I woke up and got to talk to the neurologist that had been assigned to me and she started asking the right questions and found out what I had been placed on and what occurred, she explained to me that "2 to 3% of the general population will have suicidal/homicidal tendencies when placed on this type drug". Well, that's one way to say it, but the real numbers got divulged around the year 2000 when one of the news shows (48 hours, or 20/20 or 60 minutes) did an investigate report on Paxil. The pre-FDA studies had shown a 60% rate of homicidal/suicidal tendencies in those studied, and the pharmaceutical company hid those findings from the FDA.

I have been waiting and waiting for some type of action against the company(s) involved in this...and it just doesn't come. But maybe it's because not enough people are willing to talk about it. Look at me, I've been on this board for 2-1/2 years and I haven't told this story. Why? Because it is embarrassing! I tried to kill myself! You don't go around admitting that on a normal day. So the very nature of the farkled up situation gets covered up by shame and humiliation by those who are adversely affected by these drugs.

Every time I hear about a kid who ends up killing himself, or others in a bizarro act and then it is revealed they were on Paxil or such, I think "yep, he wasn't even in his body anymore". That's what I think.

Originally posted by Valhall
I've been on this board for 2-1/2 years and I haven't told this story.

Wow.

My estimations and respect for you jumped up a fair few notches. Thank you for sharing this with us. What you talked about should be in a podcast or something. It could definitely help other people, especially parents with their kids taking these medications.

I only hope your show can continue to broadcast this message to those who need to hear it.

Tog go bog e, take it easy.

redmage and Valhall, thanks for sharing your personal stories regarding these drugs. It really hits home in ways that reports and articles regarding the failures don't.

As for references, Val put up some really good references regarding SSRI's.

Here's a link to an article regarding Louis Jourdain (friend of Jeff Weise)

Trial Closed To Public

Families Want Information

Wonderful podcast ladies!
It's good to hear someone finally addressing the whole situation with Jeff Weise and showing some sympathy for the kid.

Oh the meds, lets see.

I was put on Prozac when i was 7. I don't know why.
My sister was on and off of several different kinds of anti-depressants, in both cases it just made things worse.
I'm not sure if it's just because my mom's a psychologist and was overreacting to little things because we were kids or what, but it was not a good times for either of us.

I might add, I don't believe in meds for any emotional problems.

FredT your son sounds absolutely adorable!

Great podcasts everybody

--Kit.

[edit on 21/11/2005 by Kitsunegari]

Parrhesia and Valhall,

Great podcast!

Those are important questions you have raised about the aftermath of the Asian Tsunami. What did happen to the homeless children and how were the dollars from the fund raisers used. Why has media not followed up on these questions?

The discussion about SSRI's was important to me also. FredT's input helped to emphasize the necessity of asking questions and second opinions. Valhall your story was a scary one showing what could easily happen if we neglect his advice.

Yes, and I was able to look at the Jeff Weise story with more understanding.

Can't wait until the next podcast!

I finally had time to listen and I am so glad to finally hear it (including the kitty).

Absolutely fabulous, a really new perspective on your topics.

MORE!

I finally got the chance to sit down and listen and I have to say I enjoyed it very much. Yeppers, the two amigo's have some serious competition.

I couldn't agree more with you on the topic of drugs. I've told my story on here several times about when the Doctor decided I needed a little boost. He put me on Effexor XR and ruined my life. It was the happiest trip into hell I ever took.

SAY NO TO DRUGS!!!!!!!!!

I enjoyed the show my dears and hope to hear more from the both of you soon.

Love and light,

Wupy

excellent podcast ladies.

I look forward to more from you two in the future.

Indonesia aftermath is not the only disaster that I have questions about, the October 8th Pakistan/India Quake also leaves many questions and yes while main stream media seems to have forgotten about these events, it is still a concern for many like yourselves who can see past the fog.

I have great fears that if ever really investigated we will find that some of the funds donated to relief efforts were pocketed by corrupt individuals along the chain.

What I also haven't heard much about is the mental state of those affected by these disasters. This aspect of disaster is rarely covered even though it usually has the most devastating and long lasting affects.

Prescription Drugs such as Ritalin, Prozac and others all geared to mental deficiencies to me are worse than some of the illegal stuff. Legal Drug Pushing is big business and doctors are encouraged to prescribe this stuff without even considering all other options such as plain old talking, counselling and holistic treatments. The drugging of our children scares me much more than the drugging of adults.

I grew up in a culture and time in which parents thought Exlax would rid the body of any ailment and a child being depressed was simply unheard of. If you were sad, you went outside and played. A child's biggest worry was schoolwork and the imagination was our most stimulating toy. I blame the current culture of the western world which is saturated with negative news, violents games, shows and toys and parents who don't have time to parent their children as they are exposed to these things and seek quick fixes to problems by letting doctors prescribe stuff to alter the child's behavior instead of looking for the source of the problem and giving the child the necessary attention.

and again great podcast

PODcast: ATStrogen 01 (reply 2)
Parents Failing Children? If only it were that simple.

length: 10:48
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
Indonesia aftermath is not the only disaster that I have questions about, the October 8th Pakistan/India Quake also leaves many questions and yes while main stream media seems to have forgotten about these events, it is still a concern for many like yourselves who can see past the fog.

You're absolutely right, WW. The aftermath of the Pakistan/India quake begs many of the same questions. It seems that in the immediate aftermath of events of this magnitude global attention is focused there and hands are extended. It's important, and in my opinion crucial, to follow up on who got the money and where it went. Was it used for the purposes intended by those who gave? What of the massive government funds sent to the nations affected by both the Tsunami and the Kashmiri quake? Is that money in any safer hands then the money that went to independant aid organisations? I don't think so.

What I also haven't heard much about is the mental state of those affected by these disasters. This aspect of disaster is rarely covered even though it usually has the most devastating and long lasting affects.

True again. The major focus is on material land economic things... destruction of homes and businesses, which is of course important as these things need to be re-established as soon as possible. However, with the destruction of such things comes things such as displacement and 'refugee' camps for those who are left without a home, as well as dependance, for at least a short period, on aid agencies for the basics of survival, not to mention the loss of children, parents, brothers, sisters, husbands and wives... It all adds up to an overwhelming amount to deal with on top of material destruction.

Is there help for those who need it? Is this part of rebuilding?

glad you responded Relentless

I didn't go into too much detail with the the issues, because Val and Parr had so much food for thought, but I'll expand a bit more on why I feel that way.

American/Western culture is way too materialistic for its own good. There are people going hungry tonight while sitting in front of a television set. How about doing without a tv, a cellphone and other material things for more quality time with your family.

I had my second child in 1998, he was raised in a daycare while I worked from the age of three months old to two years old. He became a very angry and agressive baby/toddler and what did the doctor suggest... you guessed it!!!

Having had a very bad experience with prescription drugs myself....
Well I gave up my career, learned lived on one income (a rather low one at the time) and sometimes no income, and raised my sons, the younger one who now no longer acts up or cannot control his behavior. We have occassional bad days, but I have discovered the triggers and can intercept before things get out of hand, now knock on wood I have a typical and normal seven year old.

The first two years after that were extremely difficult and trying times for my little family, but my children never were in want. I have fasted on numerous occassions not because I wanted to be spiritual, but because I had to be until the next pay check came in. We here in this country are groomed to want and want and want things we really don't need. We are forced to believe that we have no other options than to work to keep up the illusion of a middle class family on their way up.

Would you sell your bed and sleep on a mattress on the floor in order to spend more time with your children? Would you give up cable tv, a computer, trips to the movies and restuarants, new clothes for yourself, unneccessary objects for your house for a better quality of family life?

I did, but I don't think your average person would, our current culture does not promote this, and you're absolutely right Relentless this is not a simple issue, it does not even touch those who truly don't have the option, such as single parents, but then that gets even further into more social issues of marriage and so on.

btw, I neglected to mention that my choice to do what I did, not only resulted in a drug free normal little boy, but I also have an extremely bright and talented nine year old, and a very strong and loving marriage. It's amazing how finances can turn around in a positive way when things are right at home.



[edit on 11-21-2005 by worldwatcher]

PODcast: ATStrogen 01 (reply 3)
The future of ATS

length: 05:19
file: atscpod_980.mp3
size: 2495k
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