Originally posted by Relentless
Well, our first problem here is that your (the original poster) questions are directed at "christians" and that is an all encompassing term for
anyone who believes in Christ. Not all Christian faiths believe things exactly the same way.
Originally posted by Jehosephat
This has been debated for over 1000 years, and you have nothing to add to this discussion since you assume that Christians think Jesus is God, when
Yes, some of us do. Some of us believe (as previously stated) in the triune nature of God - the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
Here is where we have problems. A lot of Chrisitans use terms to describe the 3 aspects of the Triune God. When I said Jesus was not God, I ment:
Jesus the son, was not God the father. Thus a bad paraphrase that is easily misinterpeted would be Jesus is not God. That is why this argument is
pointless since when Muslims talk about God, they are talking about Allah, the LORD, YWEH. And NOT the triune God, father, son, and holy spirit.
as before you misunderstand what I am saying becasue you don't understand the basic beliefs of Christians and badly assume what is not
true. Take me a while to explain. WHich is a little off topic but It is clarifying the point I am making.
From the start of the fall of sin, by Adam and Eve, God had promised to bring a savior to his people so that they may be free of sin, from the times
of Noah, Abraham, Joesph, Isreal, and David this promise was repeated time and time again. That is why in the GOspel of Matthew why the geneology is
so important becasue it shows that Jesus was of the line of David which followed many prophecies in the old testement. The Jews of Jesus time were
bound by many cultural and spiritual laws they had to follow to keep them seperate from Pagens and false Gods. Like the Catholic church of today, the
Jewish leaders decided it was better to add more laws so you would not get close to crossing the line of disobeying God. Even as far as to dicate how
far you could walk on a sabbath day before it could be concidered work (Thus a sabbaths day walk). They placed more of a burden on people then God
But the point is, up until Jesus's birth, even the great Patriarchs like Moses, Abraham, and David all sinned, and could not fullfill the law and
perfectly obey God. It took the divine birth of Jesus, who was both born as a man, but still had devine powers be that perfect sacrifice to fullfill
the old law.
With Jesus's innocent death, sacrifice, and punishment for everyone's sin. We now with the aid of the Holy Spirit cloth ourselves in Jesus, like a
wolf would cloth himself in sheeps clothing and stand in front of God appearing without sin. This is called Transferance, and one of the foundations
of the Christian Belief.
This idea of a "scape goat" was one of the religious laws the Jews had in Dueteronomy. and even the jewish Passover meal forshadows the sacrifice of
Christ, in that you needed a year old lamb without blemish or broken bones at the meal.
If you take away the divine nature of Jesus.. none of this tranferance can happen, nor could Jesus rise up again after facing death and hell.
No, I agree nothing in scripture SAYS mulsims have replaced Jesus with Mohammad, but it appears they have by just downgrading the divine nature of
Jesus is there if you look:
Jesus, a rightenous prophet, vi.85;
like Adam, iii.59;
not crucified, iv.157;
no more than apostle, iv.171; v.78; xliii 59, 63-64;
not God, v.19,75;
sent with Gospel, v.49;
not son of God, ix.30;
disciples declare themselves Muslims, v.114;
mission limited, n.1861 to xiii.38;
THen we have the fact that Mohammad claims to be a prophet yet his actions are very differant then the ones of the old testement Prophets. First,
prophets in the Old Testament always called the Israelite people back to the Law and the Covenant. This was the major theme and calling of the
prophets. Read any prophetic book of the Old Testament and one will find this theme, calling a rebellious people back to the worship of Yahweh, the
Creator and Redeemer. Mohammed does not fit the mold. He does not call people back to the law and covenant that God had established, but he has a
message that in effect replaces the old revelation with his own. The earlier revelation is seen as important only as far as it can serve to support or
authenticate his own by the claim that it is in agreement with what came before.
Second, the prophets themselves did not take vengeance on the people. When one reads Jeremiah, Isaiah, or Amos, there is the prophetic word that
Yahweh will bring judgment on the disbelieving people. Jeremiah proclaimed that Babylon was the instrument of God to chastise the Israelites. Jeremiah
did not recruit a private army to bring his own judgment. However, Mohammed did. In contrast to him, there is in the message of the Biblical prophets
no jihad against unbelieving people in general. Nothing is said about a jihad against the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, or anyone else.
Third, the prophets of the Old Testament lived with rejection, slander, persecution, and even death. No prophet attempted to defend himself. In
contrast, Mohammed could not tolerate rejection. He did not permit adversaries. This was true in regard to individual people as well as large groups.
An example of the individual rejection concerns a Jew by the name of Ka’b Ibn Al-Ashraf who wrote sarcastic poems about Mohammed. Mohammed one day
asked, "Who will deliver me from Ka’b?" Five men, including Mohammed Ibn Maslama, laid a trap for Ka’b. They coaxed him out of his house, cut
off his head, and brought it to Mohammed with the worshipful cry, "Allah is great!" and Mohammed agreed with them
And we don't really need to go into what Mohammed did with the jews of Medinia and the surrounding areas
If everyone followed the idea of WWMD? (What would mohammed do) you would see exactly what is happening in the middle east.