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Why Jesus is not god

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posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
Sure Jesus was divine. So was Muhammad, so was Abraham. But their divinity was something given to them by leave of God, not something that they had since the beginning of time.




[edit on 25-11-2005 by babloyi]


Im not sure what your saying here. As a christian, when I see the word Divine/divinity ... I think God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit.
In contrast I would list
Abraham, Angels, Trees, Grass.

The word of God is divine.
As for being divine from the beginning, the bible says just that of Jesus.
I listed the verses above. Even Jesus said it himself.
Because Jesus said it, it makes it hard for me to understand a muslim because I know you hold Jesus as a prophet at the very least.




posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Relentless
Well, our first problem here is that your (the original poster) questions are directed at "christians" and that is an all encompassing term for anyone who believes in Christ. Not all Christian faiths believe things exactly the same way.

For instance:

Originally posted by Jehosephat
This has been debated for over 1000 years, and you have nothing to add to this discussion since you assume that Christians think Jesus is God, when they dont.


Yes, some of us do. Some of us believe (as previously stated) in the triune nature of God - the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.


Here is where we have problems. A lot of Chrisitans use terms to describe the 3 aspects of the Triune God. When I said Jesus was not God, I ment: Jesus the son, was not God the father. Thus a bad paraphrase that is easily misinterpeted would be Jesus is not God. That is why this argument is pointless since when Muslims talk about God, they are talking about Allah, the LORD, YWEH. And NOT the triune God, father, son, and holy spirit.

Baboyi as before you misunderstand what I am saying becasue you don't understand the basic beliefs of Christians and badly assume what is not true. Take me a while to explain. WHich is a little off topic but It is clarifying the point I am making.

From the start of the fall of sin, by Adam and Eve, God had promised to bring a savior to his people so that they may be free of sin, from the times of Noah, Abraham, Joesph, Isreal, and David this promise was repeated time and time again. That is why in the GOspel of Matthew why the geneology is so important becasue it shows that Jesus was of the line of David which followed many prophecies in the old testement. The Jews of Jesus time were bound by many cultural and spiritual laws they had to follow to keep them seperate from Pagens and false Gods. Like the Catholic church of today, the Jewish leaders decided it was better to add more laws so you would not get close to crossing the line of disobeying God. Even as far as to dicate how far you could walk on a sabbath day before it could be concidered work (Thus a sabbaths day walk). They placed more of a burden on people then God demanded.

But the point is, up until Jesus's birth, even the great Patriarchs like Moses, Abraham, and David all sinned, and could not fullfill the law and perfectly obey God. It took the divine birth of Jesus, who was both born as a man, but still had devine powers be that perfect sacrifice to fullfill the old law.

With Jesus's innocent death, sacrifice, and punishment for everyone's sin. We now with the aid of the Holy Spirit cloth ourselves in Jesus, like a wolf would cloth himself in sheeps clothing and stand in front of God appearing without sin. This is called Transferance, and one of the foundations of the Christian Belief.

This idea of a "scape goat" was one of the religious laws the Jews had in Dueteronomy. and even the jewish Passover meal forshadows the sacrifice of Christ, in that you needed a year old lamb without blemish or broken bones at the meal.

If you take away the divine nature of Jesus.. none of this tranferance can happen, nor could Jesus rise up again after facing death and hell.

No, I agree nothing in scripture SAYS mulsims have replaced Jesus with Mohammad, but it appears they have by just downgrading the divine nature of Jesus is there if you look:
Jesus, a rightenous prophet, vi.85;
like Adam, iii.59;
not crucified, iv.157;
no more than apostle, iv.171; v.78; xliii 59, 63-64;
not God, v.19,75;
sent with Gospel, v.49;
not son of God, ix.30;
disciples declare themselves Muslims, v.114;
mission limited, n.1861 to xiii.38;

THen we have the fact that Mohammad claims to be a prophet yet his actions are very differant then the ones of the old testement Prophets. First, prophets in the Old Testament always called the Israelite people back to the Law and the Covenant. This was the major theme and calling of the prophets. Read any prophetic book of the Old Testament and one will find this theme, calling a rebellious people back to the worship of Yahweh, the Creator and Redeemer. Mohammed does not fit the mold. He does not call people back to the law and covenant that God had established, but he has a message that in effect replaces the old revelation with his own. The earlier revelation is seen as important only as far as it can serve to support or authenticate his own by the claim that it is in agreement with what came before.

Second, the prophets themselves did not take vengeance on the people. When one reads Jeremiah, Isaiah, or Amos, there is the prophetic word that Yahweh will bring judgment on the disbelieving people. Jeremiah proclaimed that Babylon was the instrument of God to chastise the Israelites. Jeremiah did not recruit a private army to bring his own judgment. However, Mohammed did. In contrast to him, there is in the message of the Biblical prophets no jihad against unbelieving people in general. Nothing is said about a jihad against the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, or anyone else.

Third, the prophets of the Old Testament lived with rejection, slander, persecution, and even death. No prophet attempted to defend himself. In contrast, Mohammed could not tolerate rejection. He did not permit adversaries. This was true in regard to individual people as well as large groups. An example of the individual rejection concerns a Jew by the name of Ka’b Ibn Al-Ashraf who wrote sarcastic poems about Mohammed. Mohammed one day asked, "Who will deliver me from Ka’b?" Five men, including Mohammed Ibn Maslama, laid a trap for Ka’b. They coaxed him out of his house, cut off his head, and brought it to Mohammed with the worshipful cry, "Allah is great!" and Mohammed agreed with them

And we don't really need to go into what Mohammed did with the jews of Medinia and the surrounding areas

If everyone followed the idea of WWMD? (What would mohammed do) you would see exactly what is happening in the middle east.



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat
Second, the prophets themselves did not take vengeance on the people. When one reads Jeremiah, Isaiah, or Amos, there is the prophetic word that Yahweh will bring judgment on the disbelieving people.


Elijah slew 450 of Baal's prophets with his own hand. 450 people who disbelieved the message of God's prophets and taught that disbelief to others. On the one hand we have Elijah the prophet, on the other hand we have 450 captured people being slaughtered. (1Ki 18:40)


No prophet attempted to defend himself.

Either evasion or confrontation can be considered defense. The lack of defense would be to stand firm in the face of adversity and place your life in God's hands. Elijah fled when his life was threatened. (1Ki 19:3)


Do these things mean that Elijah was not God's prophet?



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Im not sure what your saying here. As a christian, when I see the word Divine/divinity ... I think God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit.
In contrast I would list
Abraham, Angels, Trees, Grass.

The word of God is divine.
As for being divine from the beginning, the bible says just that of Jesus.
I listed the verses above. Even Jesus said it himself.
Because Jesus said it, it makes it hard for me to understand a muslim because I know you hold Jesus as a prophet at the very least.

I'd see the word divine as "filled with the holy spirit. But once again, I have a feeling that we disagree on the meaning of that term

Certainly, Jesus is held in great regard as a Prophet, and Muslims are instructed to follow the revealations that came before as well, but the Quran also mentions that the Bible had been distorted.
The only thing relevant that I see you quoted was Jesus saying "Before Abraham was born, I AM", which (although I understand the meaning) makes little sense to me. Why was a gramatical error translated? Wouldn't it have been the same to say "Before Abraham was born, I was" or "Before Abraham was born, I existed". If it meant to say that Jesus was calling himself God, the translation would be direct. None of this beating around the bush "I AM". You wouldn't say "Before Britney was born, I AM".

Hello again Jehosephat. I understand the Christian viewpoint. However I do not agree with it. Forget religion for a second, but I just can't put it into my head that we are all somehow inherently "bad". I believe that anyone has the propensity to be "sinless". After all, the disciples of Jesus did some healing too. Another thing my brain refuses to comprehend is this "death for death" thing. Why should an All Merciful God require a completely innocent persons death? Forgetting that, HOW can the sins or non-sins of a person affect the sins or non-sins of someone completely different? (For example) If I take responsibilty for a murder you committed, and I am killed for it, will your sins suddenly disappear?

Don't take this the wrong way Jehosephat, but you should not only get your information about Islam from Anit-Islamic websites. At the very least, google for both sides. Your list of Quranic verses, for example, is very mixed up. For example, it is verse 6-14, not 5-114 that states that the disciples declare themselves helpers of God, and Muslims in the literal sense (ie. one who submits to the will of God). Also, your (paraphrased I assume) translation of the Sirah (which is not verified anyway) is greatly flawed, and mixed up.

As for your other points:
Muhammad wasn't FROM the Israelites. He was sent where he was needed, to the Ishmaelites who had deviated from the path of God. His message from God is very much the same one that was sent before. He was, like most of the OT prophets, a leader of his people not only in the religious sense.

I don't get your point about using an army. You saying that those people fighting on their own is worse off than God sending a lightening bolt down to earth to destroy the enemy without the followers lifting a finger? In those battles that were fought in accordance to God's wishes, God said that assistance would be sent, and the Muslims won (such as Badr with overwhelming odds of 300 muslims vs 1000 meccans), while those where they deviated from God's wishes (such as Uhud, where they got greedy and started chasing the booty), they suffered losses.

I don't think your last point is valid either. Muhammad and his followers withstood a great amount of persecution before God gave them the (very logical) command that they have permission to defend themselves when attacked. You can't be serious that none of the other Prophets defended themselves. What about Abraham? What about Moses? What about Raphael's example?

You know, the interesting thing is, that while I am obliged by Islam not to insult Jesus Christ (although you probably think calling him a Prophet is an insult), you, who are obliged to "dust your sandals and walk away" when someone doesn't wish for your viewpoint, went (very un-Jesuslike) on the warpath and started insulting Islam, Muhammad and Muslims.

Baah...What can I do? As said by Jesus, and Muhammad (and my signature): "Peace be with you".

[edit on 25-11-2005 by babloyi]

[edit on 25-11-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 07:04 AM
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That was one, and this is another.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

I and my Father are one.
Many people twist that into a spiritual meaning or something.
If that was so, then the jews would not have erupted against Him.
Look at the next verses



Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

It was very clear.


Israel is still waiting for their king, but their King has come, and they killed Him.

Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

All of this from the mouth of Jesus.

At that, I too will leave this alone



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
I'd see the word divine as "filled with the holy spirit. But once again, I have a feeling that we disagree on the meaning of that term


You might want to look into a dictionary instead of making up your own definitons for words. you COULD interpet divein as the way you do, but it would be misleading and faulty logic


You know, the interesting thing is, that while I am obliged by Islam not to insult Jesus Christ (although you probably think calling him a Prophet is an insult), you, who are obliged to "dust your sandals and walk away" when someone doesn't wish for your viewpoint, went (very un-Jesuslike) on the warpath and started insulting Islam, Muhammad and Muslims.


The whole "dust off your sandals and walk away" quote is taken from a part when Jesus sent out the apostles to preach the Gospel of christ, adn when they found a town that was not willing to recieve them to leave. Big differance especailly when you have a forum that encourages open discussion between eachother.

If you are offened by someone insulting Islam, then dont insult Christians by making a statment about Jesus that rejects that he is in fact God. And you also have the gall to insult a person by calling thier acts "Un-jesus like" when the first thing a Christian would tell you is "Judge ye not, or ye be judged"

I am not the final Judge on who is right, or who will attain salvation, becasue all I can tell you is what I believe. The final judgement is not mine, I only serve as a warning to those who are lead astray by thier own pride and arrogance



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 05:06 PM
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Jesus is not God because he said he isn't. In fact he said it over and over in the bible, people just choose to believe it cause if he is not God, then what happens?



posted on Nov, 27 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by Zaimless
Jesus is not God because he said he isn't. In fact he said it over and over in the bible, people just choose to believe it cause if he is not God, then what happens?


John 10:30-33 (New International Version)


"I and the Father are one."

Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


John 13:12-14 (New International Version)

When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.



John 14:6-9 (New International Version)

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

[edit on 27-11-2005 by kinglizard]




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