It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why Jesus is not god

page: 2
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 22 2005 @ 02:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by just me 2


"We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us." (Koran 50:38)


Since that verse is in the Koran, look at the first and the last words- "WE" and "US"!!! Plurals!
Doesn't that imply that God is more than one, ie, the Trinity?


That's a pretty good point actually.




posted on Nov, 22 2005 @ 03:04 PM
link   
I believe Jesus was Gods son, not god.. so he is a part of god.. we are all a part of god.. so in a way we are god.. hah.. this is to confusing even for me.



posted on Nov, 22 2005 @ 06:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

Originally posted by just me 2


"We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us." (Koran 50:38)


Since that verse is in the Koran, look at the first and the last words- "WE" and "US"!!! Plurals!
Doesn't that imply that God is more than one, ie, the Trinity?


That's a pretty good point actually.


Thank you!

Then there's this verse from the Old Testament:
Genesis 1:26
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."


1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 03:50 AM
link   
But like alot of people, when you show the the truth contradicts what they 'want' to believe, he will ignore it and step outside scripture to bolster his belief



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 06:08 AM
link   
My dear friends who belive in God.It is more important than which religion we are practicing.There is is a good web page that u might find interesting.
might help u to know real islam
Thanks and god help us
www.19.org



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 08:26 AM
link   
Universal reformation will never happen when beliefs are contradictory and promote a works based salvation instead of faith based salvation. The idea of "Lets all get along because we Love God" is the work of the devil to undermine the true way of salvation through the Christ Jesus our savior



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 03:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by nowomannocry
My dear friends who belive in God.It is more important than which religion we are practicing.There is is a good web page that u might find interesting.
might help u to know real islam
Thanks and god help us
www.19.org


Hi there,
I checked out your website and I have to say that I do not believe in what it teaches. The Bible clearly says that whoever adds or subtracts any words to the Bible will be cursed.

Revelation 22:18-19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Therefore the Qu'ran is adding to the Word of God. (Or changing it depending on your point of view.)
There are many proofs that the Bible is accurate.
www.carm.org...

I can give you more if you want. That is only one website that I know of that gives proof of the Bible being an hisorical document. I know of many more! I have studied the Bible extensively, and I know that it is the True Word of God. (Not Allah!)



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 03:33 PM
link   
Let's try that link again. If it doesn't work, just copy and paste it into your browswer.

www.carm.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.carm.org...



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 07:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by just me 2
Hi there,
I checked out your website and I have to say that I do not believe in what it teaches. The Bible clearly says that whoever adds or subtracts any words to the Bible will be cursed.


Actually, it says "this book". Which makes you wonder, are they talking about only Revealations? Or the gospels that that author had read upto that point? Or the gospels that came after that too, (which in that case were "adding" to the book). At the time the Revealations was being written, I don't think all the gospels were together in the form of one book, rather, it was a lot of people, doing there own "adding" and (who knows?) subtracting.

Just me 2, since God is called "Us" in the OT, then why aren't all Jews Christian now? Because of a lil ol' manner of speaking, where royalty are referred to in plural. Seeing that it happened once, we'd expect God to keep up the writing/speaking style. Did Jesus call himself "We" and "Us"? No. Besides, you can't say one second that the Quran is false, and the "haha!" point out that God refers to Himself as "We" in it.

Hey Jehosephat. Do you think God rested after creating the world in 6 days because of weariness? The Quranic verse you quoted doesn't say that God didn't rest after the 6th day. It says that God felt no weariness in creating the heavens and the earth in 6 days.



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 07:42 AM
link   

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by just me 2
Hi there,
I checked out your website and I have to say that I do not believe in what it teaches. The Bible clearly says that whoever adds or subtracts any words to the Bible will be cursed.


Actually, it says "this book". Which makes you wonder, are they talking about only Revealations?


Deu 4:1 "And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.



Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

That Mat quote is Jesus Christ Himself saying it.
I have never met a muslim who did not revere Jesus' words.


[edit on 24-11-2005 by jake1997]



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 07:44 AM
link   
I think that the problem that most people have with the Jesus/God theory is that they look at things from only one side. When looking at Jesus they only see the Man side and then have a problem looking at the god.

We tend to put Jesus in the Man category because he was flesh and blood and therefore, in our eyes, he becomes a purely physical being. He was the bit of the god that we all feel that we understand. Some would have it that this was part of the purpose of his being here on Earth, but when making this argument, one is stating that by knowing exactly who Jesus was, they must logically know exactly who God is - see the problem here? Clearly, to most Christians and indeed in parts of the Bible itself, he was seen as being much more than a man, but to understand him you have to understand the god side as well.

My personal opinion is that once you can actually look at God first and then look at Jesus, it becomes easier to understand the theory behind the Christ figure. You take the two and then combine them. They have to be taken separately but then (and this is where the hard bit comes in) be considered as being one and the same.

When you think about it you can do almost the same with the god figure. The Bible tells us that he made man in his own image. Both figures are therefore intertwined.



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 08:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by jake1997
Deu 4:1 "And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.

It is interesting that you quote the Deutronomy, considering that the New Testament certainly added to the OT, and the laws of Christians certainly do not match most of the Old Testament laws.



Originally posted by jake1997
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

That Mat quote is Jesus Christ Himself saying it.
I have never met a muslim who did not revere Jesus' words.


And they do. However, nonwithstanding the fact that Muslims generally don't believe the Bible to be "Pure" anymore, the bit you quoted still stands. Jesus did not come to destroy the law, the message of the Prophets, he came to clear up all the extra "man-made stuff" added. Ironically, his followers did what he swore he would not.

But hey, I agree with you. It is a not very constructive debating like this, where a muslim will say "It's right because the Quran says so" while a Christian says "It's right because the Bible says so". Still, it's a nice discussion.

[edit on 24-11-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 03:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by babloyi
It is interesting that you quote the Deutronomy, considering that the New Testament certainly added to the OT, and the laws of Christians certainly do not match most of the Old Testament laws.


The laws were fufilled be the innocent death of Jesus Christ, Christians are no longer bound by them. Except for the commadnments Christians have no other laws to follow except to belive in Jesus. I really wish people would stop using this argument to attack Christianity, becuase it shows how ignorant you are of Chrisitanity and its beliefs

Both Old testement and New Testement have the same message, salvation is achived by repentance and the belief of a savior that will set you free from the sinful life. if the Koran states it follows the Old Testement techings they have downgraded Jesus's status to a mere Prophet, and raised Mohammad to replace Jesus

I think a better debate would be a comparison of Jesus to Mohammad, then denying the divinity of Jesus outright



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 03:12 AM
link   


Actually, it says "this book". Which makes you wonder, are they talking about only Revealations? Or the gospels that that author had read upto that point? Or the gospels that came after that too, (which in that case were "adding" to the book). At the time the Revealations was being written, I don't think all the gospels were together in the form of one book, rather, it was a lot of people, doing there own "adding" and (who knows?) subtracting.



The dates that the Gospels were written are noted in my Bible.
Matthew-70AD
Mark- 55AD
Luke- between 59-63 AD
John-between 59-63 AD

Revelation- 95 AD

So, whether John (the author of Revelation) was referring to just that book, or the entire Bible, is irrelevant because Revelation IS the last book in the Bible!




Just me 2, since God is called "Us" in the OT, then why aren't all Jews Christian now?


The word “Christian” means “Follower of Christ.” Jews do not recognize Christ as their Messiah. They believe that the Messiah is still to come.




Did Jesus call himself "We" and "Us"? No. Besides, you can't say one second that the Quran is false, and the "haha!" point out that God refers to Himself as "We" in it.


I never said the Qu'ran was false. There are some true statements in the Qu’ran, but only where it agrees with the Bible, as in that previous verse I quoted in an earlier post. If it contradicts what the Bible says in any particular topic or statement, then the Bible is where I will stand.



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 03:15 AM
link   


I think a better debate would be a comparison of Jesus to Mohammad, then denying the divinity of Jesus outright


The difference between Jesus and Mohammed is that Mohammed is dead, and since Jesus rose from the grave, that would make Him both alive and very Devine!



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 03:47 AM
link   


It is interesting that you quote the Deutronomy, considering that the New Testament certainly added to the OT, and the laws of Christians certainly do not match most of the Old Testament laws.


If you read the entire chapter of Dueteronomy, it says clearly that the author (Moses) was refering to only the Laws and Statutes ie, the "10 Commandments."

Which is one of the reasons Jesus was so against the Pharisees of His time; they added many rules and regulations to their "religion."
The OT prophecied the coming of Christ, and the NT announces "Here He is, the prophecies are fulfilled!" (My own words, not an actual Biblical statement.)



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 05:24 AM
link   
Well, our first problem here is that your (the original poster) questions are directed at "christians" and that is an all encompassing term for anyone who believes in Christ. Not all Christian faiths believe things exactly the same way.

For instance:

Originally posted by Jehosephat
This has been debated for over 1000 years, and you have nothing to add to this discussion since you assume that Christians think Jesus is God, when they dont.


Yes, some of us do. Some of us believe (as previously stated) in the triune nature of God - the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

For other examples:


3. Jesus was tempted and weak like all men, but had the powers of God to forgive sinners.


Some of us don't buy that one either, but rather believe in the divinity of Christ and cannot subscribe to a view of "weak like all men".


4. The hardest concept of any muslim is to understand the idea of a Triune God, a God that has 3 aspects (father son, and holy spirit) but is one being.


All I can say to this one after the above statement by the same poster is - okay, lets really confuse the issue now.


In Christianity, Jesus is God in flesh who paid for our sins on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Because of that, we Christians are secure in Him and do not have to worry about doing enough good works to please God since we are saved by grace through faith in Him, (Eph. 2:8-9).


Not all Christians believe this either. Some of us believe that Christ died for us so that our sins "MAY" be forgiven, as oppossed to ARE forgiven. We believe that Jesus set an example that if followed, helps us not only to become closer to him, but aids in the process, adds to the process and therefore saves more souls.


Question: Why should Christians give up our guarantee of salvation in Jesus for the requirements of your Qur'anic law when you yourselves don't even know if you have done enough good deeds to be saved on the Day of Judgment? Isn't a garuntee better, then having to do works to attain salvation?


Some of us do not have a blind belief in any guarantees ourselves, don't feel so bad.

By the way, just food for thought. There are ongoing apparitions in a place called Medugorje where the Catholic seers are suppossedly interacting with the Blessed Virgin. This place has a native population of both Catholics and Muslims. There is a story that a seer was asked to inquire with the Virgin who in the village was closest to attaining heaven. To the shocked surprise of all, she named a very pious Muslim woman living in the village. I know this will just fly in the face of many Christian sects, but I just think the original poster should be aware that you really should understand there are a wide range of discrepancies in the beliefs amoung different Christian belief systems.


[edit on 11/25/2005 by Relentless]



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 06:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by Jehosephat
The laws were fufilled be the innocent death of Jesus Christ, Christians are no longer bound by them. Except for the commadnments Christians have no other laws to follow except to belive in Jesus. I really wish people would stop using this argument to attack Christianity, becuase it shows how ignorant you are of Chrisitanity and its beliefs

Hey again, Jehosephat. I'm just saying what your saying. YOU told me that Jesus said that not one "jot or tittle" shall be changed from the law till all be fulfilled. Now you could say that being "fulfilled" means that Jesus would die on the cross. If that is your point, then (for the sake of the argument) after that, the laws can very well be changed - as you believe they have been in the Quran, and as the Christians did. If by "all is fulfilled" it means Judgement day, then certainly Christians have unlawfully deviated from the old Jewish Laws (even if you are referring to the commandments only=Sabbath on Sunday, no circumcison, etc.).


Originally posted by Jehosephat
Both Old testement and New Testement have the same message, salvation is achived by repentance and the belief of a savior that will set you free from the sinful life. if the Koran states it follows the Old Testement techings they have downgraded Jesus's status to a mere Prophet, and raised Mohammad to replace Jesus

I think a better debate would be a comparison of Jesus to Mohammad, then denying the divinity of Jesus outright

Nobody replaced Jesus with Muhammad. Muhammad's only importance was that he was the last Prophet. No muslims denies that Muhammad is dead and Jesus is still alive. Nobody denies the importance of Jesus in Islam:
(Quotorama coming up):


2:253
Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.



3:55
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


just me 2, it's interesting that you version of the Bible is so knowledgeable about the dates, considering that they are much disputed.


Originally posted by just me 2
I never said the Qu'ran was false. There are some true statements in the Qu’ran, but only where it agrees with the Bible, as in that previous verse I quoted in an earlier post. If it contradicts what the Bible says in any particular topic or statement, then the Bible is where I will stand.

Fair enough, it's the same for Muslims and the Quran.


Originally posted by just me 2


I think a better debate would be a comparison of Jesus to Mohammad, then denying the divinity of Jesus outright



The difference between Jesus and Mohammed is that Mohammed is dead, and since Jesus rose from the grave, that would make Him both alive and very Devine!

Once again, no one denied that Muhammad is dead. When Muhammad died, one of his followers said "Those who believed in Muhammad, Muhammad is dead. But those who believe in God, God never dies". Sure Jesus was divine. So was Muhammad, so was Abraham. But their divinity was something given to them by leave of God, not something that they had since the beginning of time.




[edit on 25-11-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 11:51 AM
link   
You are forgetting that there are other possibilties to why Jesus is not God.
1. Jesus didn't exist
2. God does not exist.
3. Scriptural evidence suggests that jesus and god are 2 separate entities
(cant think off hand but will get some up)

So it would seem that the 'fact' that Jesus is God is just dogma.


G



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 12:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by just me 2



The dates that the Gospels were written are noted in my Bible.
Matthew-70AD
Mark- 55AD
Luke- between 59-63 AD
John-between 59-63 AD

Revelation- 95 AD

So, whether John (the author of Revelation) was referring to just that book, or the entire Bible, is irrelevant because Revelation IS the last book in the Bible!




Bit of a problem there. A lot of scholars place John as late as 200AD. He reads totally different to the others. His style of writing looks historically out of place when compared with Matthew, Mark and Luke. Revelation might be the last book in the pages of the Bible, but it's not likely that it was the last to be written.

Truth is, nobody can pinpoint any of the dates when any of the books were written. All we can do is guess. The Gospels are said to be written at the times your Bible says because that was the generally accepted view centuries ago. As modern methods of scriptural interpretation have evolved, the whole subject of dating the books has been thrown wide open.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join