Christianity is the AntiChrist Religion

In order to begin to understand the differences which may have occured over the last 2000 years, we have to look at how Christian theology developed in the first place and then, how it affected our thinking as a result. One of my online sources has been Alex Paterson. I was particularly drawn to him due to the fact, that like myself, he has come to this issue upon the trembling platform of the layman, and speaks on this issue in terms I could understand.

In his opening statement of the provided link, he says;

The values of contemporary Western society are based almost entirely on the illusory perception of seperation- of a Universe comprising an aggregation of seperate parts, be they atoms, people, stars or galaxies. This perception of seperateness and the attendant loss of insight into the Oneness pervading all reality has resulted in most members of contemporary human society believing that power is external (i.e. lies outside themselves and not within) and as such must be obtained, by fair means or foul, from something or someone else. As a result of this perception most human endeavor throughout 'recorded' history (i.e. the past 5000 years) has been focussed almost entirely upon exploitation- be it of fellow humans and/or the environment at large- in the pursuit of personal wealth and self aggrandisement. Such a system has by necessity fuelled the ongoing suppression of the weak by the strong and ensured that the weak remain dependent on the powerful to fulfil their daily needs through this illusion of seperateness and the attendant fear that goes with that perception. The so-called 'competition of life' associated with the 'Them against Us' syndrome and the current 'Free Market' world economy is a direct result of this thinking. The deep-seated feelings of resentment engendered by this process, and the tensions associated with those feelings, have resulted in dishonesty, violence and warfare bevcoming endemic and accepted form of human behavior throughout the world.

With this he continues on to describe the seperation of humans from God by the church acting as 'intermediary'.

This notion is fundamental. If God is not seperate from humans and within all of creation, then why do we need churches and priesthoods to 'show us the way'?
Is there a seperate God or is Alex Paterson right in his overview?

Before I even get into the Nazarite theology and myth, this basic 'within-without' question needs to be considered.

The old Hermetic saying; "As above, so below" also has this addendum, noticably forgotten...it continues; "As within, so without"

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[edit on 21-11-2005 by masqua]

Interesting take Dbates, seems like a good way to control it. Duplicate the information.

And its especially helpful, as you note, to have things like the DSS that, in theory, represent a preservation of the text, if there was good alteration in the interveneing period, it'd be notice.

To play devil's advocate (or is it god's advocate, in keeping with this topic :lol , what if the dss and the old testament aren't the important basis for the gospels, and rather the gnostic texts are?

Especially this becomes a problem if we compare the current gospels paired with the Old Testament, which suppor them, to the rejected gospels paired iwth the gnostic/pagan texts, which appparently support many of them.

So there's this issue of there being a translation problem with the actual current bible being corrupted, and also of the current bible itself being the devilish manufacture.

Going back to the tittle of this thread I have to said that it does make you wonder when the christian movement through the centuries since its birth has cause so much death, destruction and bad vibes between believers and none believers or believers of other religions.

I wonder sometimes if indeed a perhaps otherwise peaceful chrisitan movement has indeed been used and manipulated by many that only wants power and cause death upon others using the God of christanity, taking in consideration the violent nature of the well know and onces God of war.

I don't really agree with the premise that Christianity is AntiChristianity. If you could really make a case for any kind of statement like that, you would probably have better luck saying "Christianity, as we know it today in the USA, is really the UnChristianity".

I think Jesus would weep and probably just go looking for a Rabbi if He ever sat in on a Southern Baptist Convention meeting or watched the 700 Club or took a tour of the Vatican.

What I'd like to see is for Jesus to just go open a can of whup-as* on Paul!

There are several points I have read in this thread that I think are great points.

1. The modern Christian protestant church does appear to me to preach several things about Jesus that require the pastor to take verses out of context and ignore other verses entirely in the bible to make the message more "attractive" to new converts. The true message is a tough message to some and a stumbling block to some. But I am reminded that, when the rich man walked away when Jesus told him to sell all he had, Jesus did not run after him to negotiate a better deal. Jesus let him go.

2. Jesus spoke of the narrow road to salvation, not a broad road. I think of it as a hockey goal. The player wants to score by getting to heaven so he has to hit the net. He shoots the puck and all the devil has to do is deflect that puck a little for it to miss the goal and there is no score.

The new testament speaks of the dangers of preaching a different Jesus, not the true one. Some like to think it's OK to worship something as long as you call it Jesus. Imagine God's anger at the Isrealites who get frustrated that God won't speak to them as they want when Moses is up on Mount Sinai so they make a golden calf and call it Jehovah. God tells them he will blot those who worshipped that calf out of his book of life.

It does not take all that much perversion of the gospel for you to be worshipping a different Jesus. Anti-christ does not simply mean against Christ. It also means "in the place of Christ".

Being a believer in Jesus is not about following any religion called Christianity. It is, for me, about following Jesus, the real one, as He is. If I claim to have a friend, but I can't tell you any details about his character or nature, my friendship is not that high of a quality.

This looks like just another list of complaint about Christianity. No offense, but the original poster brings nothing already addressed to the table. I don't see any support for "Christianity is the AntiChrist Religion". Think long and hard about that quote. Then think long and hard about all those Christians who say "Christ said..." Is anyone following this train of thought and the brick wall it's heading towards?

Originally posted by saint4God
think long and hard about all those Christians who say "Christ said..." Is anyone following this train of thought and the brick wall it's heading towards?

The point of this thread, imo, is the thought that Christ's words according to the gospels in the NT may have been altered by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John initially and then, further altered by the First Ecumenical Council of 325AD and the resulting Nicene Creed.

Further councils, like the Fifth Ecumenical in 553AD removed reincarnation from the bible, for instance.

So, while the title of this thread may seem like an oxymoron, there may actually be something to consider here. I'm wondering how much has gradually been changed through re-interpretation from the actual teachings of Christ in his time.

With the scrolls found at Qumran and their eventual deciphering (as one example of much more material), we have a chance to see what Jesus stood for without the interpretations via Paul. As an Essene, Christ would be likely to follow much of their teachings. As a Nazarite, we also know how he would have acted in his daily routine, for the Catholic church has much to say about that practice.

I, for one, am not out to 'bash' Christians, since I have been one for, at least, 50 years...I started out under the watchful eyes of a stern grandfather, a Calvinist minister in Holland. My stepfather, devout most of his life as well (and active in the church), considered it his duty to practice actively in the home on a daily basis...not just Sundays.

However, because I have never been one to accept anything blindly, I felt that there were inconsistancies in the theologies and actual histories when compared to what I was taught in the churches. I've gone far afield to look at different religions and still do so today. I study religion daily (and have more than just a few different bibles), like my father had done before me. So much so, that many in my extended family think I should have gone to Seminary School.

Actually, if I had still been living in Holland during my teens, it would have been my grandfathers wish that I had, since I am the eldest grandson and tradition would have put me into that Calvinist ministry.

However, because of what I believe now, I would be burnt at the stake for heresies, were it not for the fact that we are living in a more forgiving age.

Zaimless, I'm wondering, have you read any of the Gnostic writings? Some Gnostic groups had views very similar to your own--i.e. that this world, being material and corrupt (actually evil, in their view) was created by an "evil" Creator--whereas the version of religion they espoused was put in place by a "good" Creator--Gnostics are noted for their philosophical dualism! I know I haven't explained this very well, hopefully someone with a better knowledge of Gnostic beliefs can explain it much better. And Amethyst--"Jesuit influence"??!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Zaimless
Ok so here is how this goes. This conspiracy theory is a totally spiritual one. Satan has hid him self in the Christian Churches.
Within the bible it says there with be a Anti-Christ religion and that they will call themselves by his name. Does the word CHRISTian have anyones name in it that they might know?
When thinking this through and reading the old testament about God I discovered that the God in the Christian religion did the following and it is in every Christians bible, if they read it.
1. That God is a flame and fire

perhaps you are refering to the 'burning bush' and the column of flame - see exodus ch 14
The Hebrews believe that man cannot see the true face of God. In fact, even the true name of God is a great mystery and is not uttered by man. Flame, a pillar of smoke, and other manifestations are a means for man to approach the Divine without being overwhelmed.

2. That God encouraged incest

And where do we see this when it was not punished? Leviticus Ch 20...
17
If a man consummates marriage with his sister or his half-sister, they shall be publicly cut off from their people for this shameful deed; the man shall pay the penalty of having had intercourse with his own sister.

3. That God encourages cannabalism

I am confused here as well... are you inferring that the Miracle of the Eucharist is cannibalism? That consuming the host - the body and blood of Christ is an act of cannibalism? That's certainly what the Romans said about early Christians - that they ate babies...

4. That God had peoples hand, feet and heads cut off
5. That God had tens of thousands killed cause they could not spead a word properly when talking.

Again, I believe you are referring to the Old Testament. The Law was designed to keep the Tribes of Israel alive in a harsh environment. The laws were also written to keep the Children of the Lord distinct and seperate from others. Death was - and is - the punishment for many crimes. Tens of thousands who perished were invariably those who were too wicked to live. God purged those who were given the Word and still fouled the land with their evil and selfish ways. He did spare Noah, and He was willing to spare Sodom and Gommorah if Lot could have found one man or woman who was not wicked. Finally, following the Commandments is hard. God's chosen people must live under a strict code.

6. That Sampson went around killing people and tearing them apart and it was all good with God (and this is after the ' thou shall not's ')

Samson killed 30 Philistines who cheated on a wager by threatening his Philistine wife, coercing her to betray her husband. His wife was given to another and Samson was refused her. He then took revenge against the Philistines by sending a plague of foxes to destroy their crops. When they attacked, he fought back, slaying many. When captured, he was blinded and - as his last act - tore the palace of the Philistines down around them. At this time, the Philistines were the rulers of the land of Judah, and the Jews were subordinate to them...Samson was a hero for resistance.

7. That God is a war monger
8. That he himself has said he is vengeful, fearful, cruel, and more...

God fearful? I think not. Please find me a quote to substantiate that one. God being vengeful and cruel? No. THe Old Testament reveals to us a God who is indeed angry that his greatest creation - man - failed and betrayed His gifts. The sin of man was so great that man must suffer and through that suffering be purified. Also, the children of Cain were rampant, and there were many people who were outside of God's grace who followed vile 'gods'. Those were to be fought and destroyed.

9. That this list could go on and on.....
10. In the old testament God killed over 10 million people

Where did this number come from?

So you see after forty some years of studing the Christian Bible for some time I have come to the conclusion that the Christian God is Satan in disguise. So many Christians dont even know the history of their own beliefs. That the KJV Bible is only, what 400 some years old. That protestants changed the bible and yet they preach to not change the bible. In fact most of them don't even know the word 'bible' mean 'book' and so much more. Lots to study here.

Well, of course the KJV is only 400 years old - that's when Protestants showed up......
The bible is revised to suit the changing usages and practices of language. And perhaps some - even many - Christians don't know as much as they should, but to say 'most'? I am not sure if that is fair. I am a Roman Catholic and many of my brethern read and reflect often on the Bible and theological writings.

But I only know this, that the God the Christians believe in is an Evil God. Unless they believe in the Trinity and that my friends is a whole other conversation.

I have tried to follow your argument with an open mind. I still don't see the Evil God theory holding water. Perhaps this is a Luciferean thing? And I really don't see how the Trinity fits in here and how it is a whole different conversation... or is this a sneak attack? Polytheism assaults on the concept of the Trinity has been done to death.Theophilus of Antioch aptly defines the Trinity as being "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word [the Son], and His Wisdom [the Holy Spirit]." this is simplistic, but one of the most elegant and simple ways of explaining something that is a great Mystery of the Faith.

I respect anyone's opinion - even if it is written to be somewhat inflammatory. I would love to see some citations from the Bible and other works that have validity.

Thanks for staying with me....

Hmmm - have I killed this thread? I thought there would be something more to be said......

OMG, another troll thread. This truly sucks, I always thought ATS was a place free of this crap. I think I'll start a thread on how Jews eat ear shaped cookies on Purim shouting curses to Arabs (which they do actually, unlike these pathetic charges on Christianity) and see the reaction. Same thing here. Truly pathetic. I guess some more invisible people on my ignore list

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by Nygdan
And on the other hand, it would look like the best way for the anti-christ to get christians to turn away from god is to present himself as such, ie, when to all outward appearances we're witnessing the second coming of Jesus, its actually the anti-Christ in disguise, and there'd really be no way to tell the difference.

I followed this train of thought out to it's end and came up with the following solution.

Satan, knowing that Christ would come and usurp the anti-Christ has convinced people such as the originator of this thread that the Bible is corrupt and that the real actual Christ will appear first. Thus being fooled into thinking that the anti-Christ is the actual Christ, we will attempt to fight the real Christ when he returns thinking that he is the anti-Christ.

How do we avoid such quandaries? We must lean heavily on the ancient texts such as the Old Testament to prove the worthiness of the newer text, such as the New Testament. The Bible is in fact a sort of a hologram in that the message of the Bible and the desired knowledge is spread out over the Entire Bible. Show me the chapter that reveals the coming Messiah, or the verse that tells us of the Second Coming. These ideas are spread out over the entire Bible so that by removing portions, even entire books, we don't lose the message. We just lose some of the resolution. The image stays the same.

The author of the Bible knew that it would come under attack, so like a general sending an important message to his troops, the message is delivered through different messangers, and at different times making it nearly impossible to stamp out the main ideas of the Bible. Is it possible that some books are missing? Yes, but that doesn't mean that what we have left isn't an accurate picture of what we are supposed to see.

great post. this sums up the whole of the history of humanity. that was perfect. if more people could see this the world would change. but the world cannot see this. its takes a supernatural renewing of the mind. how does that happen? christ explains it all...all you have to do is read the message he sent us and this mainstream "christianity" teaches no such thing. people need to understand the real deal...not a religion.


[edit on 14-5-2006 by Funkydung]

Originally posted by magnito_student
Christianity is the AntiChrist Religion?

Actually "The Way"(Classic teachings of Christ) was highjacked by the enemy. Its the reason you have so many so called christians preaching another gospel. They know what it says but do not know what it means.

2000+ years ago or during christs presence in flesh, there was no such thing as "the bible" and if you look closely at the word and its sound, it sounds alot like babel, better known as babylon.

all very true but finding the real teachings of Christ is not so easy due to the disinfo campaigns and the desire by many at the top to keep the proliteriat ignorant. The mystery religions offer some insights but I see no reason to believe they are a complete source of information.

Originally posted by Nakash
OMG, another troll thread. This truly sucks, I always thought ATS was a place free of this crap. I think I'll start a thread on how Jews eat ear shaped cookies on Purim shouting curses to Arabs (which they do actually, unlike these pathetic charges on Christianity) and see the reaction. Same thing here. Truly pathetic. I guess some more invisible people on my ignore list

I'm confused. Are you annoyed at the thread or something else. Truly pathetic? Well, this being a forum that seems to be dedicated to the exhange of ideas, the reaction you post is curious. I strongly believe that one of the ways to make people understand a point of view they don't understand or are different from mine, it is my obligation to refute the position. That might just be the teacher in me.....

This thread is pathetic man so sock it. God encouraging incest, having Samson as a hitman, cannibalism....please, whoever came up with this needs to quit the bong, it just sounds like slander pure and simple.

Mark 13:6 (Whole Chapter)
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There are two ways to interpret this text.

1. There will be many people saying that they are the REAL Jesus Christ, in the flesh.

2. Or they come in Christ name, in the likeliness of Christ, a pastor, a minister, a priest, and shall deceive many.

I would go for the latter, considering the thousands of sects of Christianity all claiming the truth.

This is the way Satan works. Remember, Satan is a real, supernatural being, and the very first sin recorded in the bible was because of Satan mixxing truth with error to Eve.

Would it be too far-fetched to say that Satan is doing the same thing now as he did thousands of years ago?

There is only one truth, and that is through the Word of God. There are many supposed Christians who think going to church every week is sufficient for salvation, and that everything the priest, pastor, or minister said is true because they have a doctrine of divinity and they spent thier lives studying the bible etc etc.

But, weren't the pharisees of Christ time the religious leaders of Israel? Look how wrong they were when Jesus came.

There is one notable difference however between the time of Christ, and our time, and that is we have FREE, unadulterated access to the Word of God. What better way for people to shun Christianity than to attack God's Word, and make it as though the book has been altered, exaggerated etc.

Never have we seen a time where there are so many professed Christians in the word then now, and yet look how morally corrupt we are. It leads me to believe professed Christians are just that, people who claim they are Christians, but have no idea what a Christian is suppose to be. It's all in the BIble people. I've been in churches where they teach once you are saved, you will always be saved, regardless of what the bible says about sin.

So don't trust in man and thier interpretations, trust in God and the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth if you search for it.

Matthew 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is evident to me, that there will be many people who think they are christians and yet wonder why they aren't going to see the kingdom of heaven.

if you want to truly know Jesus Christ.... he can be found in the Word of God.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Originally posted by Zaimless
Ok so here is how this goes. This conspiracy theory is a totally spiritual one. Satan has hid him self in the Christian Churches.
Within the bible it says there with be a Anti-Christ religion and that they will call themselves by his name. Does the word CHRISTian have anyones name in it that they might know?
When thinking this through and reading the old testament about God I discovered that the God in the Christian religion did the following and it is in every Christians bible, if they read it.
1. That God is a flame and fire

No, that's a representation or a symbol. God could have just been an alien for all you know.

Originally posted by Zaimless
2. That God encouraged incest

Actually he discourages it.

Originally posted by Zaimless
3. That God encourages cannabalism

Why would he encourage the very thing he is most disgusted by? Sheesh!

Originally posted by Zaimless
4. That God had peoples hand, feet and heads cut off

Nope that was done by man.

Originally posted by Zaimless
5. That God had tens of thousands killed cause they could not spead a word properly when talking.

I hope you are joking, because if that were true I'm surprised you are still alive.

Originally posted by Zaimless
6. That Sampson went around killing people and tearing them apart and it was all good with God (and this is after the ' thou shall not's ')

Alot of people say the same thing about Muhammad, but that wasn't true either.

Originally posted by Zaimless
7. That God is a war monger

Well maybe your god is.

Originally posted by Zaimless
8. That he himself has said he is vengeful, fearful, cruel, and more...

And merciful, forgiving, and kind-hearted.

Originally posted by Zaimless
9. That this list could go on and on.....
10. In the old testament God killed over 10 million people

You could kill 20 million people with what you said, does that make you the anti-christ?

Originally posted by Zaimless
So you see after forty some years of studing the Christian Bible for some time I have come to the conclusion that the Christian God is Satan in disguise. So many Christians dont even know the history of their own beliefs. That the KJV Bible is only, what 400 some years old. That protestants changed the bible and yet they preach to not change the bible. In fact most of them don't even know the word 'bible' mean 'book' and so much more. Lots to study here.
But I only know this, that the God the Christians believe in is an Evil God. Unless they believe in the Trinity and that my friends is a whole other conversation.

Umm I think you are on crack.

Originally posted by abovereproach
Zaimless, I'm wondering, have you read any of the Gnostic writings? Some Gnostic groups had views very similar to your own--i.e. that this world, being material and corrupt (actually evil, in their view) was created by an "evil" Creator--whereas the version of religion they espoused was put in place by a "good" Creator--Gnostics are noted for their philosophical dualism! I know I haven't explained this very well, hopefully someone with a better knowledge of Gnostic beliefs can explain it much better.

And Amethyst--"Jesuit influence"??!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

Gnosticism is a fascinating and interesting fiction. I find it significant that Dan Brown embraces this 'secret church within the church' as something that is contemporary to Christ's life, teachings, and the history of the early church.

Biblical scholars are pretty much in agreement that the Gnostic 'gospels' were written at least 200 years after Christ. They are also in agreement that all 27 books of the Bible have been considered to be endorsed by Church Fathers well before the 1st century AD.

The essence of gnosticism is the belief in gnosis - the achievement of a transcendant, divine state through intuition and mystic symbolism. The 'gospels' are presented as myths in the sense that they are designed to be representational and instructional on multiple levels.

According to gnostics, all life is a self-perpetuating chain of pain, death, and suffering. All living things as a neccesary part of their existence inflict pain on something. Cheery, wot?

The creation of the traditional book of Genesis is not acceptable to gnostics. God did not actively create anything. As the supremely transcendant entity, He sort of 'shed' all of creation as some sort of emanations. As some process of diffusion, this 'god-stuff' became dilute, corrupted, and twisted. This is anathema to a number of religious people. There are a bunch of semi-gods called 'aeons' who kind of sculpted or influenced things according to their particular bent. One of these aeons create a demi-urge, a deluded godling who thinks that he is the creator...dualism again.

Human beings are composed of the physical body (corruptible, flawed, and impure) and a spark of the divine - a spark of God ... the remote, transcendant one, not the wannabe. Dualism again. According to Gnosticism, mankind - or at least most of mankind - is unaware of this spark, unwilling to accept his own piece of God makes him godlike as well. This is according to the master plan of the false god - why? no clue.

Those lucky mortals who have divined the gnosis free themselves from the wheel of time. Those who don't die and - though their spark is liberated from the imperfect vessal - are either going to wander mindlessly or - more likely - get sucked back into another flawed human form for another shot. Those who have been illuminated by the transcendant gnosis are - of course - freed of the torturous nightmarish world of the flawed creation.

Gnosticism itself almost certainly has pre-Christian antecedents. As a historian, I can easily imagine the rennaisance of these ancient doctrines being touted as an alternative to Christianity. By the second century, early Christian missionaries were having rousing success in spreading the faith throughout the empire. Christianity may not be the 'Anti-Christ' religion (an oxymoron of epic proportions), but it certainly threatened the lucrative and prestigious network of established pagan religions of the Roman Empire. Gnosticism fit much more conveniently with the multitude of acceptable religions. Unlike Christianity, the belief in the demi-urge, aeons, and other demi-godlings like archons allowed for pantheistic interpetations. The idea of a transcendant, essentially ignorant God is much more comforting than the idea of a God who is watching His children, who will sit in judgement, who embraced the notion that 'as you treat the least of My children, so you do unto me." - What slave-owning Roman would be comfortable with THAT concept? Kind of takes the fun out of those gladitorial games, no?

This is my - regrettably brief and very sketchy treatment of the pertainent aspects of gnosticism as I know it.

Christianity has been besieged by the ignorant, by the jealous, by evil-doers seeking to twist and warp the Faith. I have said in other posts here and elsewhere, that I do indeed believe that evil men have influenced the Church and likely are still there trying to continue to destroy the Holy See. I see gnosticism as yet another competitor - or more maliciously - as an attempt to derail the sacrifice of the Lamb.


As always- thank you for your kind attention and God Bless you each and every one....

Originally posted by magnito_student

Christ said, you will know them by their fruits. If you notice, many christians preach the gospel of obedience through fear and guilt and promote rather than attract as christ did.

Right, because Jesus was just kidding when he said stuff like:

"Liars." "Hypocrites." "Serpents/brood of vipers." "Sons of hell."

It was all part of His attraction only method of preaching, nevermind the attempt of the occasional enraged mob to kill Him, they just didn't get his insult comedy routine.

Originally posted by magnito_student
People didnt hang out with christ because they were scared of going to hell...

John 8:24: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [He], ye shall die in your sins."

And so, be afraid if you believe not:

Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 12:5: "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

The list just goes on and on. Unfortunately, people like to make a different Jesus, composed only of verses that they like such as John 3:16-17:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

But who never continue on to 3:18:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."



[edit on 21-5-2006 by Paul of Nisbis]

[edit on 22-5-2006 by saint4God]