Was 9/11 conducted by the United States Government and Israel?

Just a point that needs to be clarified. When you say not anti-Jewish but rather anti-Zionist, you are talking about one and the same.
Israel has always been a place for jews to go when they are being persecuted anywhere in the world. It did not start when Israel became a state. It goes back thousands of years. Non-Jews and some ignorant Jews really do not undrstand this point until the slaughter of Jews takes place and then Jews wakes up and head for safety in Israel. To denigrate Israel is to denigrate Jews anywhere.
Granted there are Arab Israelis, but they are in Israel usually by chance not by choice.
You cannot seperate a Jew from Israel or Israel from Jews. To do so smacks of bigotry. Not that you are a bigot, just not truely undrstanding of the Jewish situation.

monk84, actually you are wrong.

Judaism is a Religion.
Zionism is a Political Ideology.

There is no evidence to back up that Jewish people are a race and because there are Religious people who are Jewish which are against Israel [State] and also Zionism then it isn't for every Jewish person by Religion.

Jews Against Zionism

You have to begin to understand the difference between Religion and Politics.

You can get Muslim's, Jew's, Hindu's, et al who support Zionism and the Jewish State just as you can get people who do not support it.

Sou rce
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

However it is POLITICAL.

Originally posted by monk84

Just a point that needs to be clarified. When you say not anti-Jewish but rather anti-Zionist, you are talking about one and the same.

Zionism comprises a belief that Jews are a nation - and as such are entitled to self-determination as all other nations are.

Anti-Zionists deny uas as Jews a right that they all too readily bestow on others. In the view of Antizionists,

Jews as a nation deserve no sympathy and no rights - Jews as individuals are worthy of both.

Zionist Jews earn no respect, sympathy or protection. It is our expression of Jewish identity through identification with Israel that is under attack.

You may be right in the abstract, but when Jews are under fire and being killed the anti-Zionist Jew will seek a safe place to go and that will not be Russia, France or Germany. It will be Israel. Like they say" there are no atheists in fox holes". Anti-Jewish or anti-Zionist rhetoric by Jews is just that until the killing begins. In 1937 Germany that was very evident. A live Jew in Israel, be him anti-Zionist or not, is good for all Jews.

monk84, you honestly think it is safer to be in Israel and be Jewish than it is in the United States? I do believe the statistics would show otherwise.

In fact, I believe there are less attacks on Jewish people in Iran then there is in Israel.

Originally posted by Odium
monk84, you honestly think it is safer to be in Israel and be Jewish than it is in the United States? I do believe the statistics would show otherwise.

In fact, I believe there are less attacks on Jewish people in Iran then there is in Israel.

Odium, Israel is the answer to world wide antisemitism.

A recent [Nov 6, 2005] study conducted by the Central Bureau of Statistics showed that 82 percent of adult Israelis claimed to be 'very satisfied' with life in Israel. Of those surveyed, 52% believed that their lives would improve over the next few years. (Life is good in Israel, say Israelis)

Originally posted by Riwka
Odium, Israel is the answer to world wide antisemitism.

How do you work that out?

If we move all the Jewish people to one area, it'll defeat Anti-Semitism? Surely that's not helping the problem, it is just a high level of segregation?

Interesting source, glad so many people are happy there. It doesn't mean that they are safe though - does it?

To be honest, the only way to beat any form of bigottry is to get these people out in the open and to show what fools they are. Otherwise we will never cure the problem, brushing it under the carpet isn't a cure for it and I actually think it'll make it worse. A 'Jewish State' is an easy target for hatred.

What you are saying was exactly what the Jews thought and said in Germany in 1937. They were assimilated and therefore safe. Even in America that mistake one day might kill you. Never again should a Jew believe he is safe in a non Jewish country.

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by Riwka
Odium, Israel is the answer to world wide antisemitism.

How do you work that out?

If we move all the Jewish people to one area, it'll defeat Anti-Semitism?

No - of course not. Antisemites do not need one single Jew.

Israel is our - the Jews - protection, Odium.

It will never happen again, that Jews in danger will have no place to go in this world.

Originally posted by Odium

A 'Jewish State' is an easy target for hatred.

No problem We are able to defend ourselfes.

Are we still at that stage though?

Why does there need to be a Muslim, Jewish or Christian Nation? Why can't we all bother to work past these titles together and move passed 'Religion' [still belive] and work for what is best for everyone?

And sorry monk84, but Jewish people knew they would be targets in Germany. In fact Mein Kampf was published in 1925 a long time before 1937 so the idea they 'felt safe' or thought they were 'safe' is a lie.

While we still segregate people there will be hatred and Riwka, Israel can't defend itself against every and any Nation. Would you two rather live in a World where Nation's are split on the basis of Religion? I wouldn't, I can open the history book and see what problems those things brought us and still do.

Originally posted by Odium
Are we still at that stage though?

Why does there need to be a Muslim, Jewish or Christian Nation?

Odium, We as Jews are a nation, a people - not 'only' a religion. There are Jews who are atheists or buddists. Look here:



It is normal for Americans, Chinese people, British... to have a state. So it is for Jews.

Originally posted by Odium

And sorry monk84, but Jewish people knew they would be targets in Germany. In fact Mein Kampf was published in 1925 a long time before 1937.

I refuse to believe the Germans KNEW they would try to murder all Jews when they voted for Hitler.



[edit on 21-11-2005 by Riwka]

Maybe my long lost relatives were not as astute as you and did not read Mein Kampt in time, but they still ended up in the hellish ovens. And yes you are right we cannot live isolated . We need America and many other countries to coexist with to survive as a world and a country. But to trust our lives and society with idyllic beliefs of brotherhood and acceptance I think will not happen again. Just look at some of the comments just expressed here and by many others and watch the killers still maiming and killing Jews and non Jews alike and you might not be so secure.
I believe you are a very smart and well meaning, but somrtimes reality smacks us in the face. This is a sad fact of life.

Riwka, I know the point you are trying to make however I just disagree.

Would you agree with me if I called for Native American's to be given back land taken from them? Or for them to have their own right to self-rule? [Which they do not have]

We need to move away from the ideas of borders of religious based Nationalities and start to educate that we are all human beings and that is it. These assumed Nationalities are a lie and a way to further seperate people and to cause such hatred which killed off so many people.

As for what the German people knew? Sorry but those who voted for Hitler [43.9%] hold as much blame as any party member or officer. If they voted for someone whose policy they didn't understand, they are ignorant and if they underrstood it they knew what he wanted to do to Jewish people - he published it in two books!

monk84, if there is never people willing to try and live and coexist it won't happen. The hatred will go on and it will keep on spreading, the problem we see is that Jewish people, Muslims, etc, do not intergrate into the Society and try to work with the society as a whole [many do.] It is when people remove themselves and segregate themselves hatred breeds and until we realise this, we are doomed to keep repeating our mistakes.

We as Jews have tried to intergrate and look what it gets us.
The Native American is getting the same. Yes, they would be better off if they were given just part of their land back. If they ruled themselves and were not ruled by the Bureau of Indian Affairs they would have half a chance. Go to a "Reservation" and see what they have now under the American rulers. Wounded Knee was not so long ago. Is that what you think they want for themselves? Do you think they deserve that as opposed to self rule?

Originally posted by Odium

Would you agree with me if I called for Native American's to be given back land taken from them? Or for them to have their own right to self-rule? [Which they do not have]

No, I would not. Do they NEED one today? I think U.S. protect them as well as they protect the Jewish State of Israel. We do have a state and we need a Jewish state.

Originally posted by Odium

We need to move away from the ideas of borders of religious based Nationalities

Well said If only the Muslim world would know....

There would have been no need for a GazaStrip free of Jews and even to evacuate the dead ones. Israel is NOT free of Non-Jews - they own citzenship, since we are no religious based country.

Originally posted by Odium

As for what the German people knew? Sorry but those who voted for Hitler [43.9%] hold as much blame as any party member or officer.

again. I refuse to believe they intended to murder worldwide all Jews when they decided to vote for Hitler.

Originally posted by Odium

if there is never people willing to try and live and coexist it won't happen.

So...... then can you explain to me, why each and every single Jew had to leave the GazaStrip?

What would you suggest - How could you educate the Palestinians here?

Originally posted by Odium

the problem we see is that Jewish people, [...] do not intergrate into the Society

Interesting.

And I always thought it is for some reason the non-integrated muslim youth that is rioting in France?


[edit on 21-11-2005 by Riwka]

Riwka, I think you might take a look at how the Native American Indian is treated and you might not have the opinion you now hold. Yes, America is great to Israel, but we do not treat American Indians nearly as well. It is strange,but true.

Odium and Riwka,
Good discussion. I have to go.
Shalom

Sorry that it took me so long to get back to you, however I was busy writing a sociology essay, Riwka.

As monk84 pointed out, Native American's are not treated as well as they could be. Many tribes which have existed for hundreds of years are still not recognized by the Government and have no ability to exercise their religion in the United States or worship how they want too. [And they do no harm to anyone.] Many of the agreements between the U.S. and the Native American tribes are openly broken with no action against the Government adn I can go on and on about the problems which faces members of my family from the overt prejudice to covert prejudice.

As for the German people? I feel no remorse for them, Hitler wasn't like Lenin or many other leaders who kept a lot secret. He openly spoke about 'removing' Jewish people and the Jewish problem. Many people might have taken that as being 'removing' them from Germany and its land and many might have not cared about Jewish people and just wanted to lead a better life like he offered. However they voted for him and just like those who vote for Bush or Blair or any other leader elected through a democratic process, some of the blame has to rest on their shoulders. Did we see wave after wave of German people trying to protect the Jews? Break the boycott of shops? No...they were happy to let it happen.

And if you have people in Israel who are not Jewish and Citizens it isn't a "Jewish State" but rather just another Nation, filled with mostly one Religion/Ethnic group. [Ireland style in fact, if you think of it in some ways.]

Funny thing is Riwka, never did I say anything about rioting but rather how many groups do not intergrate into British Society and how they make their own 'areas'. However you always seem to relate it back to Muslim's, even when they are posted among a list of groups.

However, I can direct you to the writings of Kepel, who looked at both Jewish and Muslim integration in the United Kingdom and pointed out how both groups build a community around their Religion and do not integrate if you like?

Originally posted by Odium
ludaChris, evidence for that please.

Halfofone, the reason I use 'Israel' is because that is the 'Zionist State'. In fact it is one of the key parts of Zionism and the show speaks of Mossad which of course is part of the Israeli Government.

Why do you need any evidence from ludaChris - when you are soooooo ready to ignore all the evidence that says 9/11 happened just as reported?

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Odium
ludaChris, evidence for that please.

Halfofone, the reason I use 'Israel' is because that is the 'Zionist State'. In fact it is one of the key parts of Zionism and the show speaks of Mossad which of course is part of the Israeli Government.

Why do you need any evidence from ludaChris - when you are soooooo ready to ignore all the evidence that says 9/11 happened just as reported?

Because that isn't proof, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.