NEWS: Austria Holds 'Holocaust Denier'

He was arrested, charged and found guilty, in Austraia, over remarks he made in the late 80's - he claimed that the holocaust didn't happen.

So what? You can now be arrested for claiming something didn't happen...

Why don't people just leave the whole holocaust alone, it's happened and it was a horrible thing to have happened but why not just let it rest?

Why do we always only hear about that one particular incident, didn't Stalin commit severl mass murders?

Originally posted by phixion
So what? You can now be arrested for claiming something didn't happen...

now?

That law in Austria is from 1948

- and David Irving was well aware of that law when he delivered his speaches in Austria and he also knew the warrant issued in 1989 which he was detained on now.

As the saying goes,

when in Rome (which coincidentally was considered the First Reich by the Nazis), you must do as the Romans do.


Austria deals very seriously with this law:

in each of the last 15 years there have been between 15-40 trials; there were 45 such trials in the year 2000 alone. Two-thirds ended with convictions.


Now, Vienna is preparing a Holocaust denial trail against a former member of the Bundestrat, the Austrian senate and member of the right-wing Freedom Party who told a reporter that the gas chambers should be "investigated" from a physical and scientific perspective. (ynet)

Thanks for the WATS votes

Originally posted by Lanton
But apparently it's ok to question some of the accepted facts of the history of the Holocaust (even to deny that the Holocaust ever took place) or for public officials to make anti-semetic remarks and not even apologise for those remarks.

I fail to see what Ken Livingston has to do with this topic Lanton. You might want to start a seperate thread for Red Ken

It should be ok to question any facts of historical importance. Legislating against questioning historical fact can only mean one thing, you have something to hide. If the "facts" are irrefutable and unequivocal then there is absolutely no need to legislate against questioning any event. Let the facts speak for themselves and if some one wants to claim the sky is green, let them - who are they going to convince?

In addition to having something to hide by banning the questioning of the Holocaust, I can also only be lead to believe that there are vital interests at stake that are jeapordized by questioning the Holocaust. Insofar as that undermining the Holocaust only undermines the interests of the Zionists. That is why I belive questioning the Holocaust is such a social taboo and illegal in some countries.

There is plenty of elementary evidence that discredits the '6 million' figure. The most glaring points for me are the basic scientific facts that make the systematic disintergration of 6 million people completely impossible.

For starters it's widely known in modern crematoria that even with modern technology and equipment it is impossible to burn even a single human body completely to ash. After being incinerated for 2 hours at upto 1150ºc there are still bone fragments remaining equating to roughly 5% of the total body mass. The bone fragments are then pulverized in specifically designed machines called cremulators.

The box containing the body is placed in the retort and incinerated at a temperature of 760 to 1150 °C (1400 to 2100 °F). During the cremation process a large part of the body—especially the organs and other soft tissue—is vaporized due to the heat and is discharged through the exhaust system. All that remains after cremation are bone fragments, representing about five percent of the body's original mass, and the ashes of the cardboard box or wooden container. The entire process usually takes about two hours.

After the incineration is completed, the bone fragments are swept out of the retort, and the operator uses a pulverizer called a cremulator to process them into a consistent powder. The cremulator (also known informally as a 'crembola') is essentially a rotating drum similar to a spindryer, except filled with steel ball bearings whose disturbance powders the weakened bones.

Wiki on Cremation

So far as I have read there has never been any cremulators evidenced at any of the concentration camps. I should add that the remaining 5% of body mass resulting from modern cremation comes after burning a single body for 2 hours in modern furnace using natural gas. What the Nazi's used were essential ovens with coal as the fuel source.

Coal can only reach temperatures of 1000ºc therefore atleast 5% of the bodies bone fragments would of been left behind for every body burnt. Eye witness statements report multiple bodies being burnt simultaneously which would result in even more bone fragments being left behind due to increasing the amount of matter each oven has to burn.

So this begs the question: where are all the bone fragments or cremulators?

Assuming a 5% of total body mass bone fragment remaining after cremation and a conservative average of 50kg per body burnt, there should be 2,500 tonnes of bone fragments at Auschwitz Birkenau alone. To this day I have not seen any evidence of these bone fragments as the claim is always that the bodies were completely burned to ash, hence impossible to count/verify.

This doesnt take into account the fuel required to burn such huge numbers of bodies. The main Allied strategy for bringing down the Nazi war machine was targetting its fuel supply. The Allied bombers specifically targetted German coal and oil supplies, including rail and road transport networks. In the last years of WW2 Nazi Germany went from rationing fuel to completely running out.

Using up vast quantities of fuel to burn bodies would not of been possible or practical for the Nazis who were struggling to provide enough fuel to keep its army running. What would be the point of diverting huge amounts of fuel to the concentration camps while tanks, ships and cars lie idle due to lack of fuel?

Germany lost the war because they were transformed into a horse and cart army. They literally ran out of fuel, both oil and coal. The importance of this fact will be apparent in relation to the following quote.

As early as June 13, 1943, all was not well with the new installation. ... Eventually the ovens seemed to fall apart. Crematorium Four failed completely after a short time and Crematoria Five had to be shut down repeatedly. (TWC, V:624) (Between 1945 and 1962 Polish officials found five manuscripts written by Sonderkommando members before their deaths. The published manuscripts and documents relate to the specific process of extermination at Birkenau, and provide detailed descriptions of the crematoria and gas chambers.)

The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to handle the total project, but they could not. The whole complex had forty-six retorts, each with the capacity for three to five persons. The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them out. Thus it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours or 4,380,000 a year.

But the well-constructed crematoria fell far behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in 1944. In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of 24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred. Camp authorities needed an economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old pits in the wood.

Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the chief method of corpse disposal. The pits had indentations at one end from which human fat drained off. To keep the pits burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities of boiling human fat over the bodies.

Holocaust: A Layman's Guide to Auschwitz-Birkenau

The inconsistancies when compared to the demands of modern crematoria are glaring. Burning more than one body (up to 5 in some cases) in one retort and for only 30 minutes would of resulted in almost intact skeletons remaining, let alone achieving the as yet impossible feat of total dissintegration of a human body to ash.

Also the concept of burning bodies in open pits by pouring oil over them would not reach any where near the temperatures required to cremate a body. Also, as mentioned earlier, the Third Reich could not even get enough oil to run its tanks, airplanes and cars - to fight the War - much less to burn bodies. Fighting the war was a much higher priority to the Nazis than disposing with bodies.

I've only rudimentarily looked at the basics involved in the Holocaust and I have to conceed that there are glaringly impossible statements all over the Holocaust story. In no way am I denying that Jews were systematically murdered by the Nazis, like the Israeli scholars questioning the number of Poles murdered at Auschwitz, I believe getting the correct amount of dead is important. Especially when some groups are using these greatly exagerated death tolls to further their selfish ends. To allow people to profit from the pain felt over the death of thousands of Jews during WW2 is the true travesty.

The whole topic is saddening and disturbing, which adds to the ease at which people are trying to stymie investigation into the Holocaust. No one wants to be seen as insensitive to the death and destruction wrought by the Nazis. But that has not stopped investigations into the wholesale slaughter of non-Jewish people, and one has to wonder why that is the case.

Originally posted by Riwka
In which country is questioning a crime?

Laws against Holocaust denial

Holocaust denial is illegal in ten European countries: France (Loi Gayssot), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code), Germany, Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Romania, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Lithuania, and Poland; it is also illegal in Israel. Many of these countries also have broader laws against libel or inciting racial hatred, as do a number of countries that do not specifically have laws against Holocaust denial, such as Canada and the United Kingdom. The Council of Europe's 2003 Additional Protocol to the Convention on cybercrime, concerning the criminalisation of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems includes an article 6 titled Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity, though this does not have the status of law.

en.wikipedia.org...

Holocaust denial, or Holocaust revisionism as it is referred to by its supporters, is the belief that the Holocaust did not occur as it is described by mainstream historiography.

en.wikipedia.org...

As you can plainly see, if you believe anything other than the "mainstream" historiography of how the Holocaust occured you are a Holocaust denier. This will get you jailed in Austria. What is there that you do not understand?

You can be jailed for questioning the events of the Holocaust, it is not limited to the literal interpretation of the term in that you must deny that the Holocaust occured at all to run foul of the Austrian laws.

Originally posted by Riwka
That law in Austria is from 1948

- and David Irving was well aware of that law when he delivered his speaches in Austria and he also knew the warrant issued in 1989 which he was detained on now.

As the saying goes,

when in Rome (which coincidentally was considered the First Reich by the Nazis), you must do as the Romans do.


Austria deals very seriously with this law

Thats a rather interesting evasion of the morality of this law. It's against the law to wear a Crucifix in Saudi Arabia. I guess thats just dandy with you because when in Rome... Again in Saudi Arabia, if a woman is caught talking to a man in public who is not a member of her family she will be charged with prostitution, which carries the death penalty. There should be no qualms from you on those laws, when in Rome right?

The Holocaust denial laws of Austria are draconian and, even with respect to the association Austria had with Hitler it, it is an uneccesarily harsh measure taken to absolve it of its collective guilt.

[edit on 27/2/06 by subz]

Originally posted by subz

Legislating against questioning historical fact can only mean one thing, you have something to hide.

If you would not mind reading just THIS THREAD again, you could easily find out that serious reserach never has been forbidden. (otherwise, it would not have been possible for you to go to serious sources and do research there, right?)

As explained already to you, the DENIAL of the Holocaust is forbidden in Austria and some other countries.

Originally posted by subz

Insofar as that undermining the Holocaust is undermining the interests of the Zionists.

Interesting...


I assume you'd then intersted in a decision of a British court:




also like to visit the site of the United Nations ( a clear reference for Zionism).... Just click on:

Originally posted by subz

There is plenty of elementary evidence that discredits the '6 million' figure.

I don't think so - and you can use e.g. ATS as a Database to find out links to serious sources that answer exact this question. But there is no need to hijack this thread.

Originally posted by subz

So this begs the question: where are all the bone fragments or cremulators?

Instead of going to the Zundel-site, I'd highly recommend you'd go to Auschwitz, Subz.

Originally posted by Subz

Thats a rather interesting evasion of the morality of this law. It's against the law to wear a Crucifix in Saudi Arabia.

You try to compare apples with bananas. People wearing the crucifix did never try to murder all Muslims in Saudi Arabia; but the Nazis tried to murder all Jews.

Originally posted by Riwka
If you would not mind reading just THIS THREAD again, you could easily find out that serious reserach never has been forbidden. (otherwise, it would not have been possible for you to go to serious sources and do research there, right?)

"Serious research", such a subjective term. When the only "serious research" has a predetermined outcome what chance is there of proving anything? You show me some "serious research" that proves 6 million Jews were murdered and I'll show you the holes in the story.

Originally posted by Riwka
As explained already to you, the DENIAL of the Holocaust is forbidden in Austria and some other countries.

How is it so hard to grasp, I gave you a definition of what the phrase holocaust denial entails. When I say I suspect that the figure of 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust is an exaggeration that makes me a Holocaust denier. I dont deny that the Holocaust took place, does the Holocaust tag only apply for 6 million dead? If the figure was 500,000 would it not be a Holocaust? Im not denying anything other than the validity of the 6 million figure. I know you get the distinction, you're being deliberately misleading.

Originally posted by Riwka
Interesting...


I assume you'd then intersted in a decision of a British court:

also like to visit the site of the United Nations ( a clear reference for Zionism)....

Youre suspiciously professional links to these websites is fine and dandy but please explain to me how that changes anything I said. Does that change the fact that the Holocaust was THE determining factor in the Zionists securing the creation of Israel. Does it refute that? I think not.

Originally posted by Riwka
I don't think so - and you can use e.g. ATS as a Database to find out links to serious sources that answer exact this question. But there is no need to hijack this thread.

Hijack? This thread is about Holocaust denial, post away.

Originally posted by Riwka
Instead of going to the Zundel-site, I'd highly recommend you'd go to Auschwitz, Subz.

I am going to Auschwitz at the end of the year. But until then I'll draw your attention to its abscence of real gas chambers. The only gas chamber on show is an admitted reconstruction purpose built for tourists at Auschwitz. I'll also be on the look out for evidence of 2,500 tonnes of bone fragments or where they might possibly be burried. An extensive grave of that size should not be hard to spot.

Originally posted by Riwka
You try to compare apples with bananas. People wearing the crucifix did never try to murder all Muslims in Saudi Arabia; but the Nazis tried to murder all Jews.

No I try to compare your blaze, and almost cavalier, attitude of the Austrian law to what you should also believe to be the case of the Saudi laws. You're whole basis for not having issue with the Austrian law is that you should abide by what the locals hold customary. In that case you should have no qualms with any law in any country. That is unless your whole basis for not having an issue with this law is that you specifically support jailing those who question the Holocaust. Understand?

[edit on 27/2/06 by subz]

Originally posted by subz

You show me some "serious research" that proves 6 million Jews were murdered and I'll show you the holes in the story.

No, you again failed to see the point.

1. This thread is NOT about the death the NAZIS murdered.
   
2. click on the links already provided to start reading about the number of murdered Jews
   
3. go to one of the already existing ATS threads who oprovde serious research ahd join the discussion there.

Originally posted by subz

Does that change the fact that the Holocaust was THE determining factor in the Zionists securing the creation of Israel.

An other attempt of you to hijack this thread

Diffferent than you think, the Shoah was NOT "THE determing factor in the Zionists".

1. The creation of a homeland for Jews in Israel has been decided long before WW II
   
2. United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, which effectively set up the state of Israel, has been favoured on November 29.1947 by
   Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Originally posted by subz

Hijack? This thread is about Holocaust denial

This thread name is Austria holds Holocuast denier

It is about Austria - a country that holds a known Holocaust denier (who meanwhile admitted that his denial of the Holocaust was WRONG) under a special law which has been created in Austria - a country had been annexed to Nazi Germany in 1938, and was deeply involved in the crimes of the Third Reich - in 1948. Austria also bans other elements associated with Nazism, such as Nazi symbols.

So yes, if you go to Rome...

Great that you plan to go to Auschwitz.
I think you can learn a LOT there. In the meantime, you could inform yourself on a serious way (without Zundel sites, stormfront and the Leuchter-report)

external image

Simply click on the above picture or go direct to

• The Auschwitz Concentration Camp Gas Chambers and Crematoria
  
• The Number and Origins of the Victims
  
  [edit on 28-2-2006 by Riwka]

Funny, I toured Dachau back when I was in Germany for a few years. I saw the camp, the set up, I was told of how the camp operated and what it did. They also explained to us what happened, not only at that camp, but throughout all the camps.
They did not deny the number, but used it.
These guides were not Zionist propagandists trying to take over the world and make us all wear little black beanies, grow curly hair on the sides of our faces and turn away from pork, these were Germans.

Amazing how we'll believe the most outlandish of stories if it fits our desired reality, but will ignore that which isn't even doubted by knowledgeable, reasonable and educated men.

Crap, did I just join in on a hijacking of this post?
Crap.
Guess what, I just banned someone for conituously hijacking and derailing threads
Lets get ON TOPIC; lets not continue down the side road and stay with the topic.
Isn't there a thread about the validity of the number of Jewish dead?
First one to find it and post there for that conversation wins. And, if you'll u2u me the thread, I will be there unless the ice cream truck hits me.

[edit on 28-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by subz

..
There is plenty of elementary evidence that discredits the '6 million' figure. The most glaring points for me are the basic scientific facts that make the systematic disintergration of 6 million people completely impossible.
..

I agree with you in many ways but i think arguing against that figure isn't going anywhere, since they might have f-ex. used bone shards in an industrial way, and these annihilation camps had railway access...

Plausibility isn't going to lead anywhere either, since these camps put a strain on germany's war economy anyway, the amount of fuel required to burn millions of people is tremendous, but coal was never a problem for them, only transportation and synthetic fuel refining, in other words, a small part the country had coal in spades, the rest was cut off. keep in mind that steam engines run on abundant coal and that bombing railways is irrelevant because they can be rebuilt in no time.

It's obvious that denying the 10 million (total) figure on the basis of impaired logistics alone is not very convincing, i don't know if it is correct, tbh, but i'll pretty much accept it unless known evidence is proved fake and new data surfaces.

The holocaust.
I think it hapend it can be on a biger or smaler scale.
Let's remeber hitler was a mad man, he could do anything mass murder included.
How ever that does not excuse the facts that we are not trully free.
If one says it has never hapend or has hapend in a small amount he should be able to do so.
As long as is not tretening any one I dont see why not.
How can you put some one in jail for just giving a opinion on history.
Who started this law any way?

Ok, Long Lance, let me try this one more time, and I really suggest you pay attention. I'm about tired of hijackers, and two people could tell you about this if they were able to post, still.

If you would like to discuss the holocaust figures, do it in the proper thread.

This thread is about the Austrian Holocaust Denier, not the number of people killed.

Do not allow the one who you quoted to lead you down the path he wants to go. I am not tolerating this, and ESPCECIALLY not in ATSNN.

I think maybe some some are lucky I don't have the time to patrol all threads, but don't let the hit and miss chance get you!

Seriously, last warning, everyone.

[edit on 28-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
This thread is about the Austrian Holocaust Denier, not the number of people killed.

David Irving is English, not Austrian. So can we have some clarification of just what exactly is permitted discussion in this thread? The life and times of David Irving perhaps? A thorough examination of his life history? Sorry im just at a loss here as to how discussion of holocaust denial is considered "hijacking" for a thread that is ostensibily about holocaust denial.

Sorry about the poor sentence structure, I was in a big rush. Little time and so much to do.

Turning the thread into an argument soley about the number murdered is a derailment. Heck, I even got trapped into it as you can see above; it is SO easy to do.

Hey, Subz, you did some serious researching into crematoriums and the like, why not start a thread in Political Conspiracies specifically about this side topic? There's nothing this crowd likes to do more than point/counterpoint something to the nth degree, and I would imagine such a topic would allow people to dothat until they were exhausted!

That last detailed post would be good initial posting fodder to get the ball rolling, I would think.