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The guns that the U.S military loves and hates to use in Iraq

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posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 10:52 AM
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This is supposedly an e-mail from a Marine who served in Iraq. I posted this like 30 seconds before Rogue1 posted his.


1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. XXXXX says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon) : .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of #. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm : Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun : Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun : 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60. Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun : Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol : Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14 : Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle : Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor : Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as # to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bullsh*t about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment : Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations.

Link


Interesting, I'll have to ask my 3 Jarhead friends what they think since they've all been to Iraq.


[edit on 17-11-2005 by NWguy83]




posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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Damn, I spent too much time trying to make my post pretty LOL.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
Damn, I spent too much time trying to make my post pretty LOL.



It's pretty crazy that we were both posting it at the same time.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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not surprise the M-16 and the SAW got problems. need to deal with those problems. the soldiers cant carry the cleaning equipment with them all the time and not to mention carrying a weapon dat could jam at a possible worst time.


M6D

posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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I notice you said M243, is this meant to be M249 out of curiosity by any chance?
and by teh way, its likely it jams because of how old many of the M249's in service now are, its long time due for them to be completely overhauled or replaced.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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It´s a hoax and it has been posted on various Internet forums. The person who wrote this clearly has no clue about many things he describes. Additionally its always another source cited: one time it says these are experiences from his son Jordan, the son of a close friend, here it says its from super-confident XXXXX. Examples:

The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon) : .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. - Wrong, Belt fed. And its Squad AUTOMATIC weapon.

The new body armor : Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. - a dream! The basic Interceptor vests weigh 8.4 lbs., and with the usual 2 armor plates 16.4 lbs. And these it needs because the author claims ...and even will stop an AK-47 round

The second part of this "message" is missing. It goes on to describe the insurgent tactics and gear, but also has obvious flaws. But more important, it has remarks that are clearly aimed against Iran and Syria, claiming that "most of the Insurgents are foreigners", which is not true.

[edit on 17/11/2005 by Lonestar24]



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Interesting list. I saw rogue1's post but I'll reply in this thread since this is where the party is.

Here's the rest of the email, it's about insurgents tactics.



Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47's . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like #. Undisciplined spray and pray type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dog#. The enemy responded to our up-armored humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated shape charges (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan's NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage inside the wire. Jordan's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and Google earth for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

Who are the bad guys?:

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly foreigners, non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the rat line which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months. Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in sacrifice squads. Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for years). In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspir ed (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. The have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Ak's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan's base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo (Allah's Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons w ith cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all. Fun fact: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why were seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber #. The new strategy is simple: attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to influence people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).

The first thing our guys are told is don't get captured. They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a # about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqi's are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a #. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqaw's use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see # like,Are we losing in Iraq? on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).


M6D

posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:23 PM
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i was quite suspicious of the M243 part, even if it was meant to indicate a M249, most people would not know it as universally bad :p much the opposite acutally, like i said, the only conplaints ive heard are of reliability, which are down to their long use in the field.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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When I served in the Army from 80-84, I remember the M16's having problems then. The spent shell casing that gets ejected from the bolt use to get jammed up and I would have to pull the bolt back and try and shake the casing out of there.

I woulda hoped that the problem woulda been solved by now. I also rememebr our DI's at Fort Knox telling us to never let any sand or dirt get into the bolt, because M16s jam so easy.

I think the Russians made a better product with the AK-47.

Maximu§



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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More mistakes by this armchair "marine":

10) The M24 sniper rifle : Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. - Marines use the M40, currently A3. No M24s are fielded in 300 Winchester Magnum, even though they are built on the Remington long action to make this possible.


These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for years). - "conversation with Chechnya Weekly, a U.S. government official who insisted on anonymity said that it was impossible to provide a precise number of Chechens known to have been killed in combat in Iraq--or indeed whether that number has been firmly established to be more than zero. But he told us that if there have been such Chechen fighters, the number most likely is in the single digits rather than in the scores or hundreds. " source


1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. XXXXX says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. - Where is a Marine getting experience with the M4? They are very limited in the Corps with the only large number in use with Force Recon units and Det-1. Both units use the M4A1. Most of the rest of the Corps is
using the M16A4.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun : Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect. - The Marines are using the Benelli 1014 shotgun. They may still field the Mossberg in some quantity. Hate to bust the author's bubble, but shotguns are used to breech. With the restrictive rules of engagement, rifles and precise shooting is the order of the day for clearing
operations.

The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse. - not true.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. ... Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay. - A single shot even from a .50 BMG isn't enough to stop a vehicle.
Machine guns, especially the M2 are most used to stop car bombs. They are used to remotely detonate IEDs that are discovered and you'll find a lot of them in the hands of EOD -but NOT at checkpoints.


You see, so many flaws that you cant take it seriously. (Some of the above statements have been copied from other knowledgeable folks)

[edit on 17/11/2005 by Lonestar24]

[edit on 17/11/2005 by Lonestar24]



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Lonestar24
Most of the rest of the Corps is
using the M16A4.

by Lonestar24]



Yeah, I think the version of the M16 I was useing in the early 80's was the M16A2.

I remember at the firing range a DI dropped an AK-47 in the sand...kicked dirt and rocks all over it and picked it up, brushed it off and fired it.....no jams.

Max



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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A single shot even from a .50 BMG isn't enough to stop a vehicle.
Machine guns, especially the M2 are most used to stop car bombs.


I thought a single shot from a .50 Cal BMG can penetrate through a car’s engine block?

[edit on 17-11-2005 by WestPoint23]



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 05:05 PM
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First, an engine itself is relatively small, so its not easy to hit. If you hit it from the broad side and in the right angle, you CAN completely penetrate an engine block. That also depends on the materials used. However you will not very likely take out all the cylinders at once, usually only one or two. And even then most engines can still run (if only for a limited time) on the unharmed cylinders.

A Barrett is a highly specialized tool and not suitable for defense.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 07:03 PM
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Seems to me that, although fascinating, the performance and features of the weapons we are using in Iraq is secondary to the will of the power deploying them. Just as in Palestine and Afghanistan, we deploy the most sophisticated weapons ever devised against people who fight with little more than light artillery and whatever they can muster up against "us".
We use laser guided, computer controlled weapons against people who fight back with sticks and stones and home made bombs.
The information about morale in the Forces in Iraq definitely gives a misleading impression of the current situation. If anything, the media are playing down how desperate things are. All credible reports indicate an overwhelming Iraqi rejection of the occupation and a growth in support for the insurgency.

Heres one of hundreds of links you can find if you search for info.

htttp://www.globalpolicy.org/securty/issues/iraq/resistindex.htm

The war was lost before it started folks. Face it.

Fun Fact!!! War=Death



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by Lonestar24
First, an engine itself is relatively small, so its not easy to hit. If you hit it from the broad side and in the right angle, you CAN completely penetrate an engine block. That also depends on the materials used. However you will not very likely take out all the cylinders at once, usually only one or two. And even then most engines can still run (if only for a limited time) on the unharmed cylinders.

A Barrett is a highly specialized tool and not suitable for defense.


Maybe not so much with ball ammo, but they have other specialised types out there which could gut a cars angine.
The deadliest .50 caliber ammunition is the Raufoss multi-purpose round. These bullets combine armor-piercing, explosive, and incendiary effects for maximum destruction. The United States Marine Corps notes that the Raufoss multi-purpose round can penetrate an inch of steel at 2000 yards.[2] Additionally, International Defense Review estimates that the round is "probably capable of disabling a man wearing body armor who is standing behind the wall of a house at 2,000 meters."[3] The impact of these rounds are so horrific that in 1998 the International Committee of the Red Cross tried to have the round declared an "exploding bullet" banned under international law.[4] An excerpt from Sniper: The Skills, the Weapons, and the Experience provides an example of how the U.S. military exploited its tremendous firepower during the Gulf War: "The Barrett M82A1 was used in the Gulf War; a hundred rifles were rushed to the Marine Corps in time to see action in the desert. In one engagement, Sergeant Kenneth Terry of 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, hit and knocked out an Iraqi BMP armored personnel carrier with two armor-piercing incendiary rounds at a range of 1100 meters."

The armor piercing incendiary rounds are tipped with phosphorous that explodes on impact and burns at 3,000 degrees. These rounds will ignite almost any fuel they encounter, and if shot into a tree will set the tree on fire


www.bradycampaign.org...



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