Stage is set for Christians to be discredited and persecuted

Originally posted by Al Davison
(BTW - if you've never even heard of the Albigensian Crusades then don't waste your time replying)

I took a full semester on the Crusades in College, and wrote a paper specifically dealing with the Crusade against the Albigenses (Pope Innocent the III, what a guy... ). If only somebody hadn't killed that Papal Legate, maybe the Languedoc could have been spared the Crusade. Now there is a conspiracy waiting to be answered: who really killed that Papal legate and provided the spark for the whole sordid affair...but I digress, as usual....

I would agree that, imho, they were far more truly the representatives of faithful biblical Christianity in their time than the RCC has ever been.

Yet, I wonder why you would consider that True Christianity ended with their demise?
While much more biblically sound in doctrine and practice, both Cathars and Albigenses held to some beliefs that would be considered heretical by biblical standards.

Just for your info: I hold to a Historicist interpretation of scripture. In my understanding, the only "Rapture" which will occur is when Jesus returns to redeem the saints and usher in judgement upon the earth.

Originally posted by Relentless

Things are coming, things are changing, but if you want to talk about the biggie from the bible, quite a few things have to come first AND we also cannot know the day. So in my mind all the dire predictions are rather bogus. Of course if you do follow bibical teachings, it's all moot, you are suppossed to be prepared at any moment, as it will come like a thief in the night, when you least expect it.

Hey Relentless,

there is so much wisdom in your post, imho.

The Millerites certainly learned some hard lessons about date setting; however, even given their "Great Disappointment", William Miller held the belief that they had simply "got it wrong" with their calculations. and that Christians should live with TODAY as the focus in such matters.

It is strange that the Parable of the Ten Virgins, which was crucial to their eschatology and date setting, contains a warning at the end to be constantly ready, because no man knows the day or hour of the "Bridegroom's" arrival. They were serious bible students, yet they misinterpreted that rather significant caveat .

There is an interesting website dealing with Miller's views and hermeneutic:

www.earlysda.com...

A very good book on this subject is Millennial Fever and the End of the World by George Knight (Pacific Press, 1993). He is an SDA historian, but the work is very well balanced and seems as objective as anyone else's writing. You know he is SDA going into it, so that helps.

Another good one is When Time Shall Be No More by Paul Boyer (Harvard University Press, 1995).

I think your approach is safest and most biblical, and that which is likely to result in victory. May he pour out a double portion of his blessings upon you.

Excellent!

I didn't mean to sound so snobbish but I just won't waste my time with people who don't know anything about the history of the religion they profess to believe in so deeply.

Actually, I have no idea whether the Cathars (there were several similar sects but I'm just using the term "Cathar" in a general way) were the only true Christians. Maybe they were, maybe not. I agree with your generalizations, though.

I was just pondering how that, if it were true that the Cathars were the true Christians but they were slaughtered by the armies of the Church of Rome (other readers should take note that the Templars refused to participate in the killing of other Christians), and the RCC was really just a Paulinist doctrine that had usurped the name "Christianity" then, it could just be that there aren't any real Christians left in the world, any more. Just a lot of Paulinists and Papists - including those reformers and revolutionaries who followed Martin Luther but still kept some of the basic Paulinist premises such as their Saviour having died on a cross and been resurrected to save them from their sins. No good Cathar would ever believe any of that! Nor would any good Cathar allow a symbol of the (false) death of their Messiah be included in their worship. Unfortunately for Cathars, they also refused to fight any person under any circumstances so, they were pretty easy for the RCC mercenaries to slaughter.

Indeed, I'm not advocating for one group over another since I'm not any form of Christian at all. Mostly, I guess you could say that I'm a Deist with some slightly Jewish leanings.

Originally posted by Al Davison
I was just pondering how that, if it were true that the Cathars were the true Christians but they were slaughtered by the armies of the Church of Rome (other readers should take note that the Templars refused to participate in the killing of other Christians), and the RCC was really just a Paulinist doctrine that had usurped the name "Christianity" then, it could just be that there aren't any real Christians left in the world, any more.

Modern Gnosticism is probably the closest manifestation of the Cathar doctrine in our times.

Originally posted by Al Davison


I didn't mean to sound so snobbish but I just won't waste my time with people who don't know anything about the history of the religion they profess to believe in so deeply.

You didn't sound snobbish at all--I understand what you mean about trying to discuss an issue with someone who doesn't at least know the basic facts


I've just about given up on those threads which try to convince me that the United States, as organized by law through the Constitution was intended to be a "Christian Nation".

I hold with Madison that the operational spheres of Church and State should be kept as far seperate as possible...even though it certainly isn't evolving that way.

imho, it allows all of us to hold our beliefs in integrity without having to fear the "knock on the door in the middle of the night", or any restrictions to the full rights and responsibilities of citizenship---as long as we aren't harming someone else.

I enjoy your posts, keep 'em coming.

The "separation of church and state" thing came into play because of the Inquisition--convert to Catholicism and kiss the Pope's derriere, or die.

The one big enemy of Catholicism is a Bible-believing Christian. Polar opposites.

Bush may truly believe he is doing the "work of God" with his war. He is very passionate when it comes to such issues....does this mean he is doing good, or actually doing God's work? No...he is blind, and chooses only to see the shadows on the wall...failing to turn his head, he will be pushed into action by greater powers which are pulling the strings behind everything.

Very soon, we will be seeing major changes, physically and spiritually. Some of you may already be feeling these changes. Not only will "christians" be discredited, but so will almost any religion, or anything that you have "known" throughout your life. It is the time of change, the time of awakening...it is the time for truth to emerge. And when this happens, it will rock your world...my advice is to start looking for the light now, or you may never find it. And if you do see it and know it...do not deny it. Embrace what is true, it will be as it should.

Originally posted by RustyShackleford
Yes of course, because right now Christians in the US only control 99.9% of everything in the country.

I know for a fact that Saudi (Islamic/Muslim) interests currently own 17 % of America, so the 99.9% is just plain B.S., and this whole contribution has begun with a unsubstantiated lie. Thanks.

I say it's about time that Christians are discredited. My God, for my entire life, Christians have been in my business, telling me what I need, how it is, pressuring me with their belief system, acting as if they know it all and what's going to happen if I don't take up their fantasy religion, calling me a sinner, unworthy of God's blessings and Heaven after I die.

It's about time they're discredited! I have never cared what they believe for themselves or how they worship, but Jesus! they're in my life bugging me all the time! I've had enough of it.

I'm not advocating persecution, but I sure wouldn't mind of they got out of the government and left everyone else alone. But that's not going to happen. And if it does, I want a front row seat!

Dawnstar, Way above!

There will be a day when the star "Wormwood" will fall from the sky and kill off 1/3 af all life and poison 1/3 of the "waters". (This translates to over 2 billion people if it were to happen today).

There will come a day when the Anti-Christ will rise and claim to be God, decieving billions in the process. (He's not an American).

There will come the day that plagues will bring mankind to the brink of destruction. (Bird flu's and HIV can't even compare).

There will come a day that 100 million people will die in a single day at the Battle of Armageddon. (That's where blood up to a horse's bridle will happen).

Anyone who thinks that this won't happen is just fooling themselves.

It's already been written. God has said it Himself it shall happen and He's not a liar!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
but I sure wouldn't mind of they got out of the government and left everyone else alone.

Challenge for you: Name ONE Bible-believing Christian that's in our government.

Not pseudo-Christian (such as Bush). A true Christian.

What were you complaining about again?

Nice to see that Jake1997 has some assistance now in judging who is a "real" Christian and who is not - I'm sure he appreciates the help. In fact, I bet G-d is glad that He/She no longer has to worry about those duties now that they've been outsourced to you guys.

As much as I dislike "W", it's not for me to judge his religious beliefs. I'm quite comfortable judging his political and policy actions because that is my right and privilege.

And you guys wonder why some Christians are discredited?! Puhleeeeze!

Originally posted by Intelearthling
God has said it Himself it shall happen and He's not a liar!

Did you hear God say this?

If you mean that it is written in the bible, then how do you know that the bible has not been altered with during these 1850 years?

If you believe the bible has been unaltered, then how do you know that it is God's word which is written on it?

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Anyone who thinks that this won't happen is just fooling themselves.

Anybody who believes that the bible is God's word, solely because it claims to be, is just fooling themselves.





[edit on 22/11/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Originally posted by Al Davison
Nice to see that Jake1997 has some assistance now in judging who is a "real" Christian and who is not - I'm sure he appreciates the help. In fact, I bet God is glad that He no longer has to worry about those duties now that they've been outsourced to you guys.

The Bible tells us that by their fruits ye shall know them, and it tells us to expose evil.

When you take what Bush says/does and compare it with Bible teachings, you should see a huge difference.

A real Christian does NOT start wars and claim that God told him to do it.

A real Christian obeys the law of the land--and Bush does NOT obey the Constitution, which is the law of the land.

A real Christian wouldn't be caught dead in a secret society--and here we have Bush the Bonesman.

A real Christian wouldn't lie--and Bush lied about Iraq, he lied about 9/11, he is just a flat-out liar.

I could go on.

[edit on 11/22/2005 by Amethyst]

There are many who would say that a true Christian knows better than to pass judgement on others.

Not me, mind you. If Christians want to create certain litmus tests and qualifications for their club, it won't bother me at all. In fact, I'll find it amusing.

Just out of curiosity, what database program are you using to track the names of the 144,000 and can you just email that to Jesus when it's time for the rapture?

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by Intelearthling
God has said it Himself it shall happen and He's not a liar!

Did you hear God say this?

If you mean that it is written in the bible, then how do you know that the bible has not been altered with during these 1850 years?

If you believe the bible has been unaltered, then how do you know that it is God's word which is written on it?

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Anyone who thinks that this won't happen is just fooling themselves.

Anybody who believes that the bible is God's word, solely because it claims to be, is just fooling themselves.


[edit on 22/11/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

To the question of whether the Bible has been altered in the last 1850 years, I believe I can help. It's true that I am a believer and I went to church all the time. I am also an engineer with a a degree from one of the top schools in the country. I believe that we in the church had always ASSUMED that no changes occurred in the Bible as it was passed around on papyrus from church to church. Well, it turns out a few things were changed. So I had doubts that I was reading God's word in its entirety.

The old testament is pretty close. We have a pretty good old Testament due to the way the scribes had to copy them. The new testament had a few issues. So how do we know we are reading God's word.

Enter a Russian mathematician named Ivan Panin. He lived in the period of 1850-1942. He found a distinct numeric pattern in the bible. Both hebrew and greek symbols are all also numbers in their languages. The numbers form a pattern that runs continuously through the 66 books of the bible (seamlessly when the books are in the right sequence), such that you can actually tell what was supposed to be there and what is not (a few minor changes).

In modern data communications, there is a concept called the "checksum". You send a bunch of data to someone and math is performed on the bits at the source and the correct result is sent at the end. If the math performed at the destination yields the same result as at the source, the data is confirmed as communicated correctly. It turns out God invented the checksum. He has provided a way to ensure that we have His word to read.

So, as I examined the design of the Bible overall:

1. Numeric pattern such that you can tell authentic word and proper sequence of books. This numeric pattern is consistent across centuries and different authors across the centuries. That was too much for me to believe it was just mere men who wrote the Bible. It demonstrated convincingly to me that His word, the 66 books and only those, were "God breathed".

2. Theomatics where seemingly unrelated phrases that deal with the same concept add up to multiples of the same number

3. Bible Code - I've seen enough to understand that potentially most all key events in human history are encoded there and more codes show up as the strict numeric pattern is adhered to. However, I do not think we can predict the future with it since all we have is mere word association and not the full key. The full key to the code would be needed to accurately forecast anything in the future.

4. Symbolism across books and testaments that are revealed in deep study of the word.

This was enough for an engineer like to me to reach the point of conviction that, beyond reasonable probabilities, I am reading the word of God Himself and I believe that word now. Also, by the way, I believe that the mainstream protestant church makes several doctrinal errors in its teaching which require the pastor to take several verses out of context and ignore several other passages in the Bible to believe, but, in my own study, I have learned a huge amount about the Lord in the last two years.

I, got two Bibles, that were especially accurate as a result of this study:

1. The American Standard Version (not New American Standard Bible) of the Bible, which has been largely reviewed by Ivan Panin and other scholars as especially accurate.

2. The Numeric New Testament which is the version of the New Testament that adheres to Ivan Panin's research.

These numeric patterns can be found in many other sacred writings too, from almost all religions. It is because those who wrote these things were interpreting or translating "truth" from the spiritual world to the physical world. These patterns and numeric "laws" which govern our world are present "by accident".

There are many other patterns in the works of the Mayans, Egyptians, Greeks....the hindu vedas. People need to realize that religions are dividing us, and that there is only one true power and love in the universe. All religions were based on this same power and love, but are imperfect translations, as the power of God/truth cannot be accurately experienced or shown in the physical world. Although it is possible to greatly increase the power and accuracy of the message, which is within us all.

The "message" of truth can be found in other places besides religious texts. Art. Art is the closest path to truth when it comes to expression of truth and love. Everyone has the ability deep down to be a great artist, if they would only realize this and overcome their limitations that they have placed around themselves. Our physical world (the good, spiritual parts of it) is a constantly changing, growing, physical interpretation of "God's message", which is the expression of love. The expression of a power so complete, perfect, and loving which unites us all. And so you can find God's message in poems, songs, paintings, etc...if you can only realize. But even more powerful is the "art" of nature...as it has gone through less "filters" of distortion from the true message. If you are looking for understanding, there are many places to look besides religion. Religious texts have been subjected to much more "altering" or interpreting through the years than other writings, just because of the fact that people see such texts as a great opportunity for controlling others. Some texts have emerged throughout the years with a message that is still quite clear and close to truth. The Bhagavad-Gita is one...Jesus' teachings in the new testament are good, but it seems there could have been more that were either left out or altered. Messages of "truth" can also be found in many artistic works of fiction, such as a great "children's story" called "Dot and the Kangaroo". Which can be found at cronos.advenge.com... If you can find the true message in that story, you will be much better off than reading certain religious texts which have been very much distorted.

Thus, when you are reading a religious text, you are only finding someone else's interpretation of truth. While these are good to read, much more can be learned yet through a direct experience...as I have personally realized in the last few months. This message is all over any religious text you may read...that salvation lies within. The bible only references this metaphorically, but it is the same as "quiet contemplation", meditation, prayer, etc. That God/truth is only found truly through direct experience, and anything you "learn" from another person is distorted. Although it is hard for many people to have a direct experience and be able to really "hear" or interpret the message correctly.

This message of finding truth within can be found in the new testament all over the place if people would see:

"To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; in order that 'they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven."

"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light; but if your eye is unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!"

There are many other passages all over the bible and any other religious text, or many works of fiction...which all relay the same message if you can see it. The problem is that by the very nature of our society and the ways we have been raised, most of us do not have a "healthy eye"...those who know the meaning of this can also clearly see the things being done by our society/government to make sure this "eye" does not become healthy...as you have been taught to never accept truth unless some greater human power approves the message, you will never be able to find yourself until you detach yourself from the control of the physical world.

Once you have your own direct spiritual experience, and once you truly hear the message of God, only then can you grasp the "true" meanings from the texts and interpret them correctly. Because when you actually experience the overwhelming power which is truth and love, there is no "faith" needed. "Faith" in God is wrong. Truth is infinitely powerful, receiving and giving love, which grows throughout the universe. When this "truth" is known, there is no denying its presence, as it hits you with the force of sheer realization and clearness, to which it cannot be questioned. All of the "teachings" of the bible, the vedas, etc...are not things that are to be learned from another person. These teachings are simply universal ways of existing with others, and can only be truly realized once you see that we are all from the same spirit. These teachings are only describing a way of understanding which must be reached. The Bhagavad-Gita explains it very well.

Truth and light are within, so you need only find a quiet dark room in solitude in order to see the light...although it is not as simple as this, it is POSSIBLE for anyone to do this. When you "hear" the message of truth, you will achieve a greater understanding of existence and the universe than is possible to learn through science, or any other person. It is understanding and realization on an entirely different level than what we, as humans, know. But you can find it.

Send me a u2u if you have any questions or need help finding this path. When the light is found, it must shine for all to see...

peace

[edit on 23-11-2005 by Shoktek]

I have to admit--I have a problem keeping a straight face when I hear Americans complaining (bragging??) about being "persecuted" for their Christianity. I envision them sitting in their comfortable homes, wearing nice clothes, eating abundant fresh food, attending the church of their choice (along with their children), buying and reading their Bibles, going to any Bible study group they please, celebrating Easter and Christmas with their churches and families and friends--and all of this with no impediment whatever, least of all any torture, imprisonment, fines, or threats--and I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Because there are people in this world who ARE being persecuted for being Christians--or Jews, or anything else that a pack of tyrants doesn't like. I assure you, those being TRULY persecuted don't have to shout it from the rooftops--they are in gulag prisons, undergoing torture, having their children taken from them, being raped, being decimated, being denied ANY of the comforts of their religion, being murdered--American Christians simply do not know what REAL persecution is. And frankly, when I see these fat sanctimonious TV preachers and their devoted followers squawking about being persecuted while they (at least the preachers) are raking in millions of dollars--UNTAXED--I feel deeply offended. Persecuted???? If that's what persecution is, boy do I wish somebody would decide to persecute ME!!?? The early Christians who went bravely to their state-ordered deaths in the Roman Empire--yes, they were victims of persecution, and I admire them tremendously. As I do any current victims of genuine religious persecution. But to think of people on this forum (I'm not trying to single any one out) sitting comfortably at their computers, able to witness to their faith and even criticize those who don't share their beliefs, totally without consequence--how can you possibly summon up the nerve to call yourself victims of persecution!!!??? It's a slap in the face to the real victims!! And I have to add--Amethyst, while I do agree with some of the things you have said, and I am NOT trying to start an argument here--I just have to say that as a Catholic I take exception to your sweeping statement that Catholics and "Bible-believing Christians" are "polar opposites". On what information do you base that claim? How deep is your knowledge of Catholicism? Have you ever set foot inside a Catholic Church or attended a Mass or even engaged in a serious discussion with a deeply committed Roman Catholic? Have you ever studied the official Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, which sets out our basic beliefs? I think if you did you would be amazed to see how many things we DO agree on. Yes, definitely, there are differences, I'm not pretending there aren't--but I have heard the same thing from so many Protestant acquaintances who assure me they are well-versed in Catholic beliefs--who then turn around and gravely assure me that we Catholics "worship" the Virgin Mary and the saints! Well, as a matter of fact--WE DO NOT!!! Only God, along with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are worshipped by Catholics--by ANY Christians, as far as I know. We believe, among other things (nothing I'm trying to hide--you can easily look up the "Nicene Creed" and read it for yourself) in: the virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, the Resurrection, the necessity of baptism--is there anything there you find un-Biblical? Not to mention un-Christian? Sorry if I'm on a rant here, but I am so tired of hearing myself and fellow Catholics accused of not being "real" Christians! BTW--all of my family members and most of my friends happen to be Protestants. We all accept each other's beliefs and respect them. It really isn't all that hard to do--and without anyone compromising their own beliefs either!! I can sum it up in just a few words: tolerance, mutual respect, and Christian charity!

Originally posted by Shoktek
Bush may truly believe he is doing the "work of God" with his war. He is very passionate when it comes to such issues....does this mean he is doing good, or actually doing God's work? No...he is blind, and chooses only to see the shadows on the wall...failing to turn his head, he will be pushed into action by greater powers which are pulling the strings behind everything.

Very soon, we will be seeing major changes, physically and spiritually. Some of you may already be feeling these changes. Not only will "christians" be discredited, but so will almost any religion, or anything that you have "known" throughout your life. It is the time of change, the time of awakening...it is the time for truth to emerge. And when this happens, it will rock your world...my advice is to start looking for the light now, or you may never find it. And if you do see it and know it...do not deny it. Embrace what is true, it will be as it should.

Very good my friend, and well worded. However, my only grievance with this statement is that you used the term "Christians" in the doo dads(brain fa.t) and should have also put the term "religion" between them also.

You are so very correct about the light. Don't deny it. It embraces all.

Nice to see that Jake1997 has some assistance now in judging who is a "real" Christian and who is not - I'm sure he appreciates the help. In fact, I bet G-d is glad that He/She no longer has to worry about those duties now that they've been outsourced to you guys.

As much as I dislike "W", it's not for me to judge his religious beliefs. I'm quite comfortable judging his political and policy actions because that is my right and privilege.

And you guys wonder why some Christians are discredited?! Puhleeeeze!

Al, I'm gonna give you your Heretic 1st Class Badge!!

It has come to my attention that our brainwaves work along similar patterns. It seems our only difference lies in your study of the various "religion" while I rely solely on "feel".

You have hit some zingers throughout this thread. For this I and the "big fellow" are proud. Keep up the good work!!!!!!!!!