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Stage is set for Christians to be discredited and persecuted

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posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 04:45 PM
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How do you make that distinction? What do you mean by "changes are due" exactly, if not a religous concept?



Religious they are not. The problem is everyone wants to put religion as something they cannot explain. I will explain what changes are due.

1: Mind
2: Soul

Without those changes we will destroy ourselves over and over again, until we finaly learn.




posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 05:08 PM
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being fed to the lions is being persecuted. being burned alive in a furnace, is being persecuted. being thrown in a rat infested prison somewhere and forgotten because you own a bible is being persecuted.;....

living in a country where the majority of it's leaders are professed christians IS NOT BEING PERSECUTED!!! and considering some of the things that I am hearing like....."This is a christian nation." "Only the true christians should be allowed to run for office, or vote....."Marriage is a religious institution, we are the ones who get to define it!" ect...ect....I can't help but wonder....are some of the christians complaining that we are persecuting them, by not letting them persecute us?

of course, I do agree about one thing, by the time these "compassionate conservatives christians" that we have in office now are done.....I am afraid that there will be a very bad aftertaste in many people's mouths when it comes to anything to do with christianity for a very long time to come! which is why I say.....KEEP THE RELIGION OUT OF OUR POLITICS! the only ones who would be interested in putting it in are the ones who would be willing to corrupt that religion to obtain their much desired power!



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Interesting point, dawnstar!

If I may be allowed to elaborate on it, Evangelical Christians are in a very precarious position now because they are practically merged with the Republican party. That was way, way stupid and short-sighted! Any student of history can tell you that the power shifts between political parties and factions quite frequently so, they were bound to lose power in just a few years.

But, far worse for the Evangelicals is that the party they chose is now identfied with failure, corruption, dishonesty, hubris, abuse, etc.

OK, I can't feel too sorry for them. If you lie down with dogs, you can't complain about the fleas!


Later edited to add:
I did not finish making my point - sorry, I got distracted.
I did not mean to be so partisan as to make it seem that I believed that the Evangelicals (and active Christians of any stripe) would be better served by latching onto the Democrats rather than the Republicans. My point (which was meant to echo and embellish the point made by dawnstar) is that it is a very, very bad idea to mix politics and religion. In fact, it's difficult to see how the mixing of the two would do anything other than demean, debase, and profane the worship of G-d in whatever form one would choose.

OK, I think I'm done, now.

[edit on 17-11-2005 by Al Davison]



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
[..]

The point here is, people who think Bush is a Christian will start blaming genuine Christians for the problems here in America--this is a plan of the Puppetmasters. People need to wake up and realize that Bush is NOT a Christian!

This is a spiritual war, though most people are ignorant of this fact.

[edit on 11/16/2005 by Amethyst]



err, well in a round-about way Pres. GW Bush is a type of Christian...

maybe not in all the ways that you identify as being Christian...
but he declares himself to be 'born-again', to be in that state one needed to have been Baptized into a Christian Denomination.

Also, i remember during the debates, nominee GW Bush said he
'most admired' the philosopher Jesus.
This should alert us of the tricky nature of his unique belief in Christianity...
Our Pres. admits he has private/individual counsul with G-d...
& that Jesus was a great philosopher...
~but that's not a profession of faith~

Talking to G-d, and being instructed by G-d, are fine for internal realities

it's when the mind of GW Bush, rationalizes that Prophecised events must be accomplished during this administration, or at least the road-map for a Christian-Zionist strategy be set in motion in his administration.
That's when the Christian thing---Goes Too Far ! ~imho

in general, Christians feel 'validated' when they are 'persecuted'
so, on a sliding scale of how deeply one is convicted-in-the-spirit ,
is in accord with just how much a zealot one is for the faith.


this can be edgy & scarey & really go thru mental contortions.
good-luck with your thread,



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Some thoughts on thee above

God is intolerant of religion. The world unity movement is well under way. The RCC is right in the front. Christians who hold to their faith and belief in Gods word will be (ALREADY ARE) deemed intolerant.


Exactly. The ecumenical movement. One world government, one world religion. I was reading in Cathy Burns' book, Billy Graham and His Friends, that pope JP2 thought there was something seriously wrong with fundamentalism. Now what is fundamentalism? Basically, in a nutshell, taking the Bible at its word, instead of doing like the pope did and saying certain parts are just myth. Once we have this one-world religion, guess what will happen to those of us who will not conform?


I think The original poster is picking up on that vibe


I've been reading up on this thing for years now.
People only like professing Christians if they say that they tolerate everything. They don't like those of us who say we should not tolerate sin.

In a let's-be-tolerant world, true Bible-believing Christians are not to be tolerated.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 11:03 PM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
They don't like those of us who say we should not tolerate sin.

In a let's-be-tolerant world, true Bible-believing Christians are not to be tolerated.


So, let me wade through this a bit, because I'm actually a little shocked at how forthright and honest you are - unfortunately.

You freely, and happily admit that you "choose" to be intolerant of other people and other cultures, but then you're upset that those SAME PEOPLE choose to respond in like fashion, and be intolerant to you.

The arrogance and hypocrisy is simply astounding, on so many different levels, that it's hard comprehend, let alone rationalize. "Do unto others" and "we reap what we sow" go right out the window, replaced by a Burger King catch phrase, "My way, right away"

The Rapture simply can't come soon enough to wisk the "God Warriors' away on some magic carpet ride to the fairytale land of assimilation.

And good riddance.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735

So, let me wade through this a bit, because I'm actually a little shocked at how forthright and honest you are - unfortunately.


Why lie about it?


You freely, and happily admit that you "choose" to be intolerant of other people and other cultures,


Where do you get that from? Didn't I say intolerant of SIN? As in BEHAVIOR? Should I be tolerant of cultures that practice child sacrifice, for example?


but then you're upset that those SAME PEOPLE choose to respond in like fashion, and be intolerant to you.


Nope, just pointing out their hypocrisy. Jesus said to His disciples that the world hated Him long before it hated them. I didn't say I was upset. When you're a Christian, having people hating on you is pretty much a given.


The arrogance and hypocrisy is simply astounding, on so many different levels, that it's hard comprehend, let alone rationalize. "Do unto others" and "we reap what we sow" go right out the window, replaced by a Burger King catch phrase, "My way, right away"


Do you see me advocating beating up or killing people just because they're gay or they cheat on their wives? NO. All we can do is tell people that what they're doing is wrong. PERIOD. What they do with this information is UP TO THEM. And yes, they will reap what they sow--no matter what they do. Reaping what you sow can be a good thing--if you're sowing good things.



The Rapture simply can't come soon enough to wisk the "God Warriors' away on some magic carpet ride to the fairytale land of assimilation.

And good riddance.


Sorry, you're stuck with us. There is no pre-trib rapture.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 12:52 AM
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I'll stop being intolerant of *most* christians when they stop...

1) Coming through my gate that is plastered with *no solictors* *day sleeper do NOT knock on door before 4pm* and several other deterants about 5-6 times a month and knocking on my freaking door anyway.

2) After passing through said gate they then are told *No thanks I'm not interested* and ALL of them REFUSE to just say "oh ok sorry to bother you". Most of them act like pushy sales people and will NOT go away without me getting nasty.(mormons, JWs, and babtists are the morons who do this) no matter how many times I tell em to LEAVE ME THE FREAK ALONE. Maybe I should mine my yard and set them to blow when the weight of a bible is detected, yeah that's the ticket. grumble grumble grumble wake me up dang it go away grumble grumble grumble

3) When 99.9% of all christians quit telling me *you have to believe this or you will go to hell* irregardless of the fact that thier own book tells them they are not allowed to pass judgement, only thier g-d can.

4) When they all quit twisting thier own holy book to suit thier purposes and needs. Saying "Well it was written 2000 years ago, things have changed", won't wash either. Damn g-d must be stupid not to know what to write in his book that would suit ALL generations no matter what. Glad I have not aligned myself with such a stupid deity.

Either you believe or you don't, you cannot pick and chose what you want to believe and what not to out of the bible without invaildating everything your religion stands for.

5) I have NO problem with you all practicing your religion. I don't and really don't want to hear about it or be told how evil I am just because I don't believe in a book written by a few men to gain power over more men. I'll keep my beliefs to myself if you do the same. Unless it is to *discuss* without telling me how *bad* I am, then we can talk about your religion all day.

6) When they stop trying to regulate *MY* life when I am doing nothing to hurt anyone. By this I mean keep your religious morals/beliefs out of my bedroom, out of this countries laws and govt. SOME Religious morals have benefits to everyone but, christians have made the whole idea of religion so disgusting and repulsive to so many people it's ridiculous.

I don't feel we are headed to a country where christians are persecuted. I feel we are headed toward a country where we all have to be christians *or else*. Just like in the middle eastern countries with islam being the only religion allowed and you have no choice not to follow or follow something different etc.

Lil



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 04:15 AM
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There are two different definitions of "intolerant" at work here.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 07:33 AM
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I feel your pain. I have a suggestion. It works for me all the time. Convert to being an Apostolic Pentecostal. As soon as any of the heavies start talking about God, tell them you speak in tongues. They all seem to think it is of the devil (not true but that is what I get from JW, Morons, and Baptists). Mucho funny


On a side note I would tend to agree with most of your points here (not all but most). Being pushy gets you no where. Live a Holy life before people, show a genuine (most can tell the fakers anyway) friendliness to everyone, be charitable with your time (everyone has money to throw at people), and when/if they feel God in you tell them your experience laced with His Word.

I was reminded of this fact again when I got a hold of a ladies conferrence CD. It basically said everything I just said, but a bit more about why you do this. It basically said when did Jesus slap people around with scrolls of the Old Testement? He felt compassion on them and fed them, he healed them, he gave easy words to them and loved them. The only time He was upset is about polluting Gods house by selling stuff in the Temple like thieves. He didn't kill anyone though except in Acts when the married couple lied to His Spirit.

Anyway, I'm preaching, sort of, and just wanted to say sorry if you are bugged by folks you'd rather not hear from while you are trying to sleep.

Cheers.

[edited big quote -nygdan]

[edit on 18-11-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Lilroanie
I'll stop being intolerant of *most* christians when they stop...

1) Coming through my gate that is plastered with *no solictors* *day sleeper do NOT knock on door before 4pm* and several other deterants about 5-6 times a month and knocking on my freaking door anyway.


Techinically Christians are not really soliciting anything when you think about it. Just put a sign on your door if you're that set against it. My mother-in-law once put a NO JWs sign on her door!


3) When 99.9% of all christians quit telling me *you have to believe this or you will go to hell* irregardless of the fact that thier own book tells them they are not allowed to pass judgement, only thier g-d can.


Why do people have this need to spell God's name with a hyphen? At any rate, the Bible says we are to judge righteous judgment. The "judge not" applies to hypocrites. Calling something what it is, is not judging or prejudging.


4) When they all quit twisting thier own holy book to suit thier purposes and needs. Saying "Well it was written 2000 years ago, things have changed", won't wash either. Damn g-d must be stupid not to know what to write in his book that would suit ALL generations no matter what. Glad I have not aligned myself with such a stupid deity.


The Bible is for all generations. I too have an issue with people who twist the Scriptures to suit their own agenda. I've had many an experience with that and left a few churches because of it.


Either you believe or you don't, you cannot pick and chose what you want to believe and what not to out of the bible without invaildating everything your religion stands for.


You're absolutely right. It's written that "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Too many professing Christians are what I call "cafeteria Christians." It just won't fly.


5) I have NO problem with you all practicing your religion. I don't and really don't want to hear about it or be told how evil I am just because I don't believe in a book written by a few men to gain power over more men. I'll keep my beliefs to myself if you do the same. Unless it is to *discuss* without telling me how *bad* I am, then we can talk about your religion all day.


Know what, we're all sinners. But the Bible was not written for a power trip. I don't know where you get that idea.


6) When they stop trying to regulate *MY* life when I am doing nothing to hurt anyone. By this I mean keep your religious morals/beliefs out of my bedroom, out of this countries laws and govt. SOME Religious morals have benefits to everyone but, christians have made the whole idea of religion so disgusting and repulsive to so many people it's ridiculous.


By your reasoning, then, murder shouldn't be illegal, theft shouldn't be illegal, perjury shouldn't be illegal...guess what those laws are based on?


I don't feel we are headed to a country where christians are persecuted. I feel we are headed toward a country where we all have to be christians *or else*. Just like in the middle eastern countries with islam being the only religion allowed and you have no choice not to follow or follow something different etc.


You're close--very close. Only the NWO's brand of "Christianity" will be allowed. True Bible-believing Christians will be persecuted. Just like in Constantine's day. He declared everyone Christians--BUT--it had to be HIS kind of Christianity, and the true believers were still being persecuted.

Did you know that Bible believers, along with Jews, were persecuted and killed during the Inquisition? And during the Holocaust? And during the Crusades? And history is going to repeat itself.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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Perhaps we should keep it simple.

What will fullfill the prophesies as all interpret them? What will have the potential to answer the questions generated by the minds that are in conflict?

I believe one shall come (or is here) that will have both the potential to prove God's existance, and prove there is no God. The latter will only have to disprove the truths accepted by people who think they are believers, but truly are not.

To prove to someone there is no God is an approachable concept, using the logical deductive reasoning of said believers.

Be prepared to doubt all you know to be true. And, be true to yourself.

One of the purported definitions of an atheist is: one who does not acknowledge any possibility that there is a superior consciousness or higher power.

Monotheistic beliefs dictate there is but 1 God.

God gave us the first commandment.

God fits the definition of atheist if God acknowledges nothing above God's self, or monotheism isn't.

Christians believe Christ is God manifested in man.

The Word Christian means: To be Christ like.

Christians are trying to be like Christ. (What Would Jesus Do?)

Therefore: The purpose of non-believers who call themselves Christians is to convert atheists into Christians who believe Christ is God and try to be like Christ, therefore trying to be like God, who is an atheist.

Converting atheists into souls who are striving to be atheists?

To a non-believer this could make sense.

But, all logical deductive reasoning that provides a conclusion is counterable.

How does anyone justify that the human brain was ever capable of creating such an abstract and intangible all encompassing concept as God?
Death and fear of the unknown are not two variables in and of themselves that are capable of acting as a catalyst for such an ideal.

AS FOR GWB:

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

America lost two buildings.


We responded by taking two countries, of which the 19 were not from.


Kudos, and then the people chose GWB, again.

The first weapon of mass destruction developed by man was an army.

We overthrew Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction?

We can leave when we train them to be an effective army, a weapon of mass destruction?

Peace



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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Yes of course, because right now Christians in the US only control 99.9% of everything in the country. But since they can't tell women they can't have abortions, me that I can't look at porn, and everyone what they can read, write, talk about, experience, and do with someone that they love... they are being persecuted. Not being able to tell me when and how a person has sex ... you might as well feed them to the lions. I mean, it's not like they control congress
. That would be silly. It's not like they control everything that is on the radio and tv
. NO they dont control what we can watch and listen to. It's someone else that made the laws governing the shipping laws in some southern states (remember, where it is illegal for you to recieve porn, sex toys etc at your own home and property).

The Christians are REALLY suffering in this country.

You know what is funny about Christianity, is that if you look at the Islamic countries and how they make things illegal, like porn, alcohol, etc.... Christians and Muslims should be friends!!! You have almost THE SAME VIEWS. You want to control everything and ever person that sets foot in this country, JUST like the Islamic leaders.

Yep, Christians are THIS close to being fed to the lions.



Give me a break.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Lilroanie
I



3) When 99.9% of all christians quit telling me *you have to believe this or you will go to hell* irregardless of the fact that thier own book tells them they are not allowed to pass judgement, only thier g-d can.
.

5) I have NO problem with you all practicing your religion. I don't and really don't want to hear about it or be told how evil I am just because I don't believe in a book written by a few men to gain power over more men. I'll keep my beliefs to myself if you do the same. Unless it is to *discuss* without telling me how *bad* I am, then we can talk about your religion all day.



Thanks for that piece of reality, especially points 3 and 5. I dont buy into the idea of chirstians being persecuted in the US any time soon. America is one of the most Christian countries on Earth, wouldnt this type of persecution start in Europe were people are much less religious? Having lived both in the U.S. and Britain, I've gotten a good perspective of an extremely religous country (US) and an extremely non-religious country (Britain). In Brtiain people from all walks of life seem to get along much better than in the U.S. I know this isnt only because of religion but I think it is a Major factor.
Why do the majority of the worlds religions believe in monotheism yet cant get along with each other? So many worship their Prophet not their God.
"Worshiping the lantern, not the light"



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Uh Ammy, how is murder a christian value/moral? Murder was illegal way before christianity became a plague onto this planet. Same with rape and theft. Also a day sleeper mostly between 6-1ish, and have a sign on my door that I made.

"You knock before Noon I will kill you." It seems to work, except for christians who can't seem to read. Although I scared on when I opened the door with a shotgun in my other hand yelling at the *^@#&*# for waking me up before Noon.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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I have to agree with ya. Christianity has basically been set up as with Judeaism. Catholicism is also involved in the set up of the christian faith.

Example: 700 Club and TBN...You all have seen these strange folks with their flashy suits, big wigs, and clown make-up. You have many christians, not all, but many showing no love towards the weak and down trodden. So naturally many have whats called toxic faith...they received a misrepresentation what the true gospel is about so they curse christians. Their message is basically feed the rich and kill the disabled and weak. You have ministers calling for the assasination of the Venezuelean President. You have christians saying kill those ragheads. Many preach the God's gonna get you... you better submit using fear and guilt technique so naturally you can see why many get heated when you mention christianity. But if you remember,,,people hung out with christ because people enjoyed being in his company and he made you feel welcomed always. All you hear now is repent repent repent hes coming to bust your jaw wide open if ya dont repent!

These so called agents of the antichrist have infiltrated many sects and denominations in christendom and they preach another gospel as Paul warned about.

Then you have the Zionist movement trying to blaspheme the jews and bring hatred towards them. Maybe you have seen some of these orthodox Torah jews that stand up and say "Israel, you're wrong" What are the Zionists going to do...call them anti-semites and sic the ADL on them?

In catholicism it is the pedophile scandals.

Something evil is trying its damndest to destroy the true message of christ and guess what? It will fail.



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
Techinically Christians are not really soliciting anything when you think about it. Just put a sign on your door if you're that set against it. My mother-in-law once put a NO JWs sign on her door!


Tried it, it does not work. Personally I think they can't or won't read the signs. AND YES they ARE soliciting. They are soliciting thier god/religion and I have a right to privacy and expect them to respect that, just like I respect them enough not to go to thier churches and homes and tell them I think they are freakin loons and stupid and gullible(I don't think they are, thats just an example)To me it is just as insulting to be told I'm *bad* or *going to hell* or a *sinner* because I don't believe in YOUR god.


Why do people have this need to spell God's name with a hyphen? At any rate, the Bible says we are to judge righteous judgment. The "judge not" applies to hypocrites. Calling something what it is, is not judging or prejudging.!


As for the hyphen I'm not sure I don't think I wrote it that way, but it's possible. As for judgeing me, you know what, fine go for it, but when you spout that crap to me unsolicited expect me to go flippin nuts on you. I don't believe in your god, I don't believe we are all *sinners* In the real life cases I'm speaking of, I never asked for thier opinion, nor do I want it. Here I understand posting in a religious thread will bring it up, I still don't buy it tho

. I believe *sin*(I call it piss poor behavior)is each persons responsibility and no way no how is saying or beliveing some dude died on a cross thousands of years ago is going to *save me*. Only my own good behavior will give me a chance at a better life next time around or after I die, if there is an afterlife at all. I'm not sure so I live my life like it matters without needing some mythical(to me) boogeyman to make sure I behave. I SURELY don't need or want your judgement that is between me and whatever deity I do or do not I believe in.


You're absolutely right. It's written that "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Too many professing Christians are what I call "cafeteria Christians." It just won't fly.


Awesome, I'd call you a true christian then if you follow your bible in totallity and take every single word as true and you attempt to do everything in it in your life. Either every single word is the truth placed in the bible by your god and should be followed TO THE LETTER or none of it is true and you're a hypocrit(General*you* btw not speciffically you you
)

Still, in real life situations, unless you are asked about your religion, don't cram it down my throat. I wear an Ankh, and one time in a grocery store I had some nut job come up and start screaming bible quotes to me and getting in my face. This is just one example out of hundreds in my 40+ years of having christianity pushed on me when I didn't do jack or squat to give the person the idea I give a damn. Unsolicited spewing is why I tend to literally *hate* 99% of christians out there.


5) I have NO problem with you all practicing your religion. I don't and really don't want to hear about it or be told how evil I am just because I don't believe in a book written by a few men to gain power over more men. I'll keep my beliefs to myself if you do the same. Unless it is to *discuss* without telling me how *bad* I am, then we can talk about your religion all day.



Know what, we're all sinners. But the Bible was not written for a power trip. I don't know where you get that idea.


No sorry. I'm not a sinner because I do not belive in sin. You are either a good person or a bad person and it is ALL ON YOUR head, not some chick who ate an apple in a fairytale garden. If you believe that GREAT, but don't call me a sinner please and I won't call you a nut job


Back when the bible was written yes a few men wrote it(by getting gods words from your perspective). I see it as a few guys who wanted control of the peasant and slave populations of the times, and what better way than telling them some all mighty god would strike them dead unless they worhipped the way they were told. I guess none of us will know for sure till we die, but I'm secure in my life and behaviour that *if* there is an afterlife, I'll be ok, are you?


6) When they stop trying to regulate *MY* life when I am doing nothing to hurt anyone. By this I mean keep your religious morals/beliefs out of my bedroom, out of this countries laws and govt. SOME Religious morals have benefits to everyone but, christians have made the whole idea of religion so disgusting and repulsive to so many people it's ridiculous.


Here again

6) When they stop trying to regulate *MY* life when I am doing nothing to hurt anyone.



By your reasoning, then, murder shouldn't be illegal, theft shouldn't be illegal, perjury shouldn't be illegal...guess what those laws are based on?


Here again

6) When they stop trying to regulate *MY* life when I am doing nothing to hurt anyone.


Ermmm no all of those things are illegal for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, they impinge on someone elses freedom, rights and life. If you hurt others, you negatively impact thier lives and the lives of thier loved ones, it has nothing to do with religion and thats what the laws are for. It's common sense not religion. I'm talking about telling me(everyone) that as long as I'm a law abiding person who does not hurt anyone, what right do christians have to tell gays for example they can't love and marry? That's a purely relgious reason/argument and it has no place in our govt or laws.

If you belive in creation, great, awesome, nifty, I'm glad for you. I do not however want it in public schools no matter how well disguised it is(ID) I would rather see evolution taken out of the schools also than see our kids heads filled with relgious hogwash. OR you add alien interference to the ID theory and anything else anyone can come up with as to why stuff was *created*. But to strictly make a statement on creation(a christian belief)is not appropriate in this country.


I don't feel we are headed to a country where christians are persecuted. I feel we are headed toward a country where we all have to be christians *or else*. Just like in the middle eastern countries with islam being the only religion allowed and you have no choice not to follow or follow something different etc.



You're close--very close. Only the NWO's brand of "Christianity" will be allowed. True Bible-believing Christians will be persecuted. Just like in Constantine's day. He declared everyone Christians--BUT--it had to be HIS kind of Christianity, and the true believers were still being persecuted.

Did you know that Bible believers, along with Jews, were persecuted and killed during the Inquisition? And during the Holocaust? And during the Crusades? And history is going to repeat itself.


I don't care whose brand of religion it is. I don't want it. I totally respect YOUR right to worship, all I ask is for you to respect MY right not to. If I bring it up, great tell me what you believe, but don't try to regulate MY life with your belief.

In the end it is all about respect. and 99% of the christians I have met or interacted with show NONE to those who don't buy thier form of religion. Hell they don't even respect people who believe in the same god and bible they do if they aren't part of *thier* church. How is it possible to believe in something that not even the BELIEVERS can agree on? To me it's not. Im happy it is for you, but I don't buy it and you don't have the right to force me to.

Lil



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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This whole thread has made for some very good reading.


It's been a perfect example of why Church and State should remain as far seperated as possible.
Today, a Congressman whose name I can't recall, in the midst of our evolving meltdown over Congressman Bertha's call to get out of Iraq immediately, anyway, this Congressman made the observation that political speech is at the very heart of free speech. I would say this goes for the right to dissent in matters of religion too.

I pulled four titles down off my bookcase for those of you who like to read in bed (or at the beach, or the tub, or...)



  1. "A Christian America: Protestant Hopes and Historical Realities" by Robert T. Handy (Oxford University Press, 1984)
  2. "The Culture of Disbelief" by Stephen L. Carter (Anchor Books, 1994)
  3. "Right-Wing Populism in America" by Chip Berlet and Matthew N. Lyons (Guilford, 2000)
  4. "The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America" by Frank Lambert (Princeton University Press, 2003)


Another good one (can't figure out how to add another bullet point to the list. Where is my 15 yr. old when I need her? Talking to boys on the phone...) is;

"Leo Strauss and the American Right" by Shadjia B. Drury (St. Martin's Press, 1999)

If anyone has read any of these I would be interested to know what you think.


I think I'm becoming addicted to ATS, but, I digress...



posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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just a meandering thought but, what if all the plans for the "rapture" were spoiled way back in the late 11th and early 12th centuries when the Church of Rome killed off all the true Christians so that there isn't anything left of Christianity any more except a few scraps and remnants that survive in the Paulinist Church and it's off-shoots.

In other words, what if the Cathars were right? but, they're all long-since dead so there isn't any reason for Jesus to come back unless he feels like starting all over from scratch...

Anyway, it was just a thought...doesn't matter to me, anyway. But, it is related to this thread because it "presents" the idea that maybe the "Stage is not set for Christians for be persecuted" because the Church of Rome had already succeeded in killing all the real Christians about 800 years ago...

This is bound to draw some flames but, maybe a couple of the flamers will know enough history to understand what I was thinking when I wrote this.

(BTW - if you've never even heard of the Albigensian Crusades then don't waste your time replying)



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
Why do people have this need to spell God's name with a hyphen?


Two reasons - Jewish tradition regarding the sacred names of God and one of God's commandments as written in Exodus.

Judaism holds that the (many) names of God are sacred. This is much more important in regard to the actual names of God than the english word "God," but many Jews choose to spell the word "God" with a hyphen in an effort to, basically, avoid spelling the word "God." Why?

In short, logically, anywhere that a person could write the name "God" could be destroyed - eventually paper will break down and decompose or be disposed of, electronic devices can be turned off, etc., and this may be considered a violation of Ex 20:7 "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

I think it's important for Christians to become familiar with the Jewish names for God and their origins and meanings. It is an interesting subject that many Christians are kind of clueless about.


Originally posted by Amethyst
...are what I call "cafeteria Christians."


Heh, I like that.


Originally posted by Amethyst
By your reasoning, then, murder shouldn't be illegal, theft shouldn't be illegal, perjury shouldn't be illegal...guess what those laws are based on?


Ancient imperial civil and criminal philosophy? The social contract? Prehistoric tribal agreements? Tell me, tell me! I'm dying here!

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