Good thread

I agree Bush is not Christain but is saying he is for his own goals. He has admitted to other countries leaders that he was told by God to strike Afganistan and Iraq, and he did.

I Do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. The word Rapture I don't think is even in the bible. How can you have a Great Tribulation without the Christians here on Earth, is it not the Last great suffering of the faithfull?

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Good threadI Do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. The word Rapture I don't think is even in the bible. How can you have a Great Tribulation without the Christians here on Earth, is it not the Last great suffering of the faithfull?

Read Rev 3... the promise to the Church of Philedelphia.. that totally confirms the rapture for me....

Also in the gospels Jesus told HIS disciples (not just the 12, it applies today to anyone who follows HIM now) to:

PRAY that you be counted worthy to escape....

So, if I'm ready to go on that day... if I've suffered through persecution and have totally died to self and this sinful world and am focused totally on eternity and building the Kingdom of God... I'd be raptured outta here...

But, even people that may be accounted worthy might hav eit on their hearts to stay during the Trib... so as Jesus said, we are given according to our faith... so yea

I don't believe atheists in general are evangelical by nature, and on that note, I don't think that they really care too much about what Christians are up to or believe, as long as it doesn't negatively affect them or their children or their community. In other words, I don't see Christians being "persecuted" as such in America. At all. Ever. The world is full of persecuted peoples and religions, but I disagree with the topic of this thread - that the "stage is set for Christians to be 'discredited and persecuted'."

The Bible does not tell us much about this "rapture" subject (the term "rapture" certainly does not appear in the Bible at all). The Bible describes a time when Jesus (or Jeeezuzz *wink*) will come to Earth to resurrect the dead and "call the faithful home" (as written by the apostle Paul). However, the Bible speaks nothing about the time when this would happen - before, during, or after the "Tribulation" - and as such, there are competing schools of Christian thought on the issue. With such uncertainty, perhaps calling "rapture time!!" right now might be a little premature. Of course, the "end times" have been declared as such since man first opened his gaping maw - you wouldn't be the first.

Zip

Has anyone else noticed the line being set down between God and Satan or at least Good and Evil in the world today? Its seems like its becomming much more black and white as to who is good and who is bad. There is a rise in Satanism and also a rise in Christianity. Satanic ritual cases rarely make it into the news, but they happen often; babys, or animal parts being used in the "black mass."

In africa, men walk around and ask women if they are muslim or christian. If they answer christian, they are raped then their breasts are cut off and the bleed to death, or are beheaded.

In china, thousands of people have been sent to prison and tortured for simply praying in their houses, or being in bible groups.

In India, groups of Hindu extremeists are threatening christians with being burned alive if they do not convert back to hinduism.

In the middle-east... well, I think we all know what the so called "religion of peace" is up to.

And in the USA christianity is persecuted on a daily basis. Usually it has to do with christian symbols around the "holdays," or prayer in school, or teeshirts that say abortion is murder, or the ten commandments being in front of court houses, or christmas festivities in schools or workplaces, or erasing any mention of God or Jesus so as to not offend someone (i guess the idea of a benevolent supreme intelligence whos sole fixation is with helping mankind - is somehow offensive..?), or firing people for talking about the bible, or getting rid of military chaplins, or keeping religious people from assembling because their pro-life views cause them to recieve threats from abortion and homosexual groups, and so on. These are only the tiny minor day-to-day things christians have to deal with in the USA. The ACLU (or Anti-Christian Lawyers Union, as we call them) is almost daily suing someone to remove christian symbols, or suing someone for simply talking about God. There is a force in the USA whose goal is to erase God from our minds, and replace it with.. ? We'll have to wait and see. ("Maybe SATAN?!" - Church Lady, Saturday Night Live)


Im not saying hinduism or baptism or whatever is evil on its own, but people are becomming much more divided as being either good or evil, and religious reasons are usually used to commit atrocities, or conversely to help people. In south Korea, just across the border, ex-north koreans get a free hot meal; if they are willing to listen to some words from the bible read by a friendly South Korean family. In north korea you can just as easily be killed for reading a bible.

Evil is much more overt these days. Which in turn sends people to the good side faster. And this seems to create a very obvious line between good and evil. I get the feeling that Sodom and Gommorah are closer today than they used to be, and that angels are going to be pouring hot sulfer on some of the more decadent cities pretty soon. Take a look at the muslim riots in France. The guy who's the leader of some muslim group here in the USA (the people who sue everytime islam is described in a poor light, i forget the groups name) anyways he said "Islam is not here to be equal with other religions, its here to dominate them." There will be riots in the USA far greater than those in france, but I think they will happen in Great Britan first.

The End Is Here.

[edit on 11/17/2005 by ViolatoR]

Originally posted by ViolatoR
I get the feeling that Sodom and Gommorah are closer today than they used to be
[edit on 11/17/2005 by ViolatoR]

A few years back one of the big TV evangelists wife made a comment to the effect that if you look at America today you would have to expect something is coming soon or God owes Sodom & Gommorah an apology.

I personally don't buy into the rapture, and I'm still not convinced that the tribulation coming upon us is "the end" or the biggie from the bible, as oppossed to mere tribulations caused by man against man.

Things are coming, things are changing, but if you want to talk about the biggie from the bible, quite a few things have to come first AND we also cannot know the day. So in my mind all the dire predictions are rather bogus. Of course if you do follow bibical teachings, it's all moot, you are suppossed to be prepared at any moment, as it will come like a thief in the night, when you least expect it.

Bottom line for me, do the best I can. If I'm going to believe in God, I have to go with the assumption that all this worrying about "end times" is futile. It's in his hands and one should live their life in all things trying to do the right thing in his eyes, regardless of whether he wants to take me or not if such an event occurs.

I feel personally it doesn't matter if the lines are being set down between good and evil, they have always been there. What's important is knowing which side you are on with enough conviction to not wimp out on it when things get tough.

I think it was St. Francis who was once asked while gardening, what he would do if he found out the world were going to end tomorrow and his response was, continue my gardening. Think about it.

I'd be looking for the Tribulation to possibly start up within the next few years or so.

And were you looking for it to start 'in a few years' a few years ago too? When ti doesn't come, does that mean that your interpretation of the bible is wrong? Does it mean that your faith in the bible is false? Does it mean that you don't understand it properly, or is it just a mistake?

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Evangelicals make it a point to be in everyone else's bedrooms and business, judging, and trying to shape the world as it appears in their own narrow interpretation - and then they complain when there's a backlash against them.

Notice, I didn't say Christian, I said Evangelical.

Or, to be more correct, the 30% who feel the need to bow down to a bitter effegy of a tyrant god, who deals vengeance with spite, and hatred with bile - and feel the need to pass on the curse of close minded ignorance to each next generation that comes to pass.

The motto for the next decade will be Live and Let Live.

[edit on 17-11-2005 by brimstone735]

Christians have always been persecuted. Jesus said there will come tribulations and you will be persecuted for my Names sake. Nothing new under the sun afterall. As to the rapture, you're right it is a man made word to describe the event. Pre-Post-? Don't really care, you could step off a curb and be hit by a car or die of a brain clot. Any number of things. What is most important is to follow the great commandments. Love God with all your being and love other as you love yourself (paraphrased). As to the event, it is just meant as a celebratory sign that HE is coming for His bride and we need to rejoice!! Just don't be like to brides who let their Holy Ghost oil not get filled and be left out of the door.

Originally posted by Zipdot


The Bible does not tell us much about this "rapture" subject (the term "rapture" certainly does not appear in the Bible at all).

I agree with most of your post, except for the above. The popular Protestant Christian term "rapture" is take from the Greek "rapturos", which is indeed found 4 times in the New Testament. In the King James Version, each appearance of "rapturos" is translated as "caught up":

2 Corinthians 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 12:5 - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The Christian idea of a rapture is generally based on the verse from I Thessalonians.



[edit on 17-11-2005 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Amethyst
This is a spiritual war, though most people are ignorant of this fact.

Great Thread.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think Terrorism will be the reason to start the persecution of Christians. I've thought that after 9/11.

I think something big will happen fairly soon in the US, and then they will start with persecution of Christians, for the reason will be something to the effect we are a threat to society, or something to that nature.

Lord Willing I will be ready!

[edited big quote -nygdan]

[edit on 18-11-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Relentless

Bottom line for me, do the best I can. If I'm going to believe in God, I have to go with the assumption that all this worrying about "end times" is futile. It's in his hands and one should live their life in all things trying to do the right thing in his eyes, regardless of whether he wants to take me or not if such an event occurs.

I feel personally it doesn't matter if the lines are being set down between good and evil, they have always been there. What's important is knowing which side you are on with enough conviction to not wimp out on it when things get tough.

I think it was St. Francis who was once asked while gardening, what he would do if he found out the world were going to end tomorrow and his response was, continue my gardening. Think about it.

*checks pockets*......doh!

Completely outta W.A.T.S., so i'll give ya one of these.

Not that i don't enjoying taking part, or atleast keeping up with the speculation....it is futile.

But the Bible does say; Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

There will be signs (if we indeed are close), and if Amethyst (and others) are correct this may indeed be what is meant by an increase of knowledge at the "time of the end". But it shouldn't change the way you (the 'church') live your life.

To quote Relentless (again) "What's important is knowing which side you are on with enough conviction to not wimp out on it when things get tough." Whether the end is tomorrow or 1000 years from now is irrelevant to that statement, agreed? I also have that 'feeling'(for lack of better word) that we are "close", but if i was a guy living in WWII Germany watching Hitler try to take over the world, push his one world religion(Nazism) and exterminate the Jews...i would have been "sure" the end was nigh. I would have been wrong...just a thought worth considering imho.

Originally posted by Nygdan

I'd be looking for the Tribulation to possibly start up within the next few years or so.

And were you looking for it to start 'in a few years' a few years ago too? When ti doesn't come, does that mean that your interpretation of the bible is wrong? Does it mean that your faith in the bible is false? Does it mean that you don't understand it properly, or is it just a mistake?

Nice set of questions. I too believe that the rapture/tribulation will be within the next few years - earlier rather than later. Then again, for the past 2000+ years people have thought that the "end is near". So, what if the tribulation does not happen before I die? I could assume the following:

My interpretation of the bible was wrong.
I do not understand the bible properly.
I have been watching the wrong people on TV
Or, more likely, I do not know the time nor place.

I will consider that the bible is wrong/fake/false when one event happens - that event is the destruction of Jerusalem prior to the trib/rapture.

My opinion: Christians will become more persecuted in America in the future while other religions, especially those in the news today, will become accepted because of misunderstandings concerning their true nature and purpose. The Rapture is Pre-Trib, and the tribulation is for 7 years divided into a first 3.5 and a second 3.5 year segment.

I don't mean to be insulting or flippant but, the best analogy I can think of at this time for the "persecution of Christians" is "suicide by cop". In other words, if you run around and try to provoke others into persecuting you, then you will find some who will take you up on it. Not me. I just politely smile and nod until you go away and bother somebody else.

The only time I react at all is when you start trying to influence the laws under which I have to live if I am going to remain in the USA. OK, that's going too far so I have to do something to quell the movement towards an Islamic-style American Taliban.

Pray, sing, worship, make a joyful noise, etc. any way you choose but allow me the right to do the same or avoid doing it. We'll all get along fine.

Originally posted by ViolatoR
Has anyone else noticed the line being set down between God and Satan or at least Good and Evil in the world today? Its seems like its becomming much more black and white as to who is good and who is bad. There is a rise in Satanism and also a rise in Christianity. [...]
The End Is Here.

[edit on 11/17/2005 by ViolatoR]

Mal 3: 17 "They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him.
18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Zipdot


The Bible does not tell us much about this "rapture" subject (the term "rapture" certainly does not appear in the Bible at all).

I agree with most of your post, except for the above. The popular Protestant Christian term "rapture" is take from the Greek "rapturos", which is indeed found 4 times in the New Testament. In the King James Version, each appearance of "rapturos" is translated as "caught up":

Ah, cool, guess I should have looked that up first. Thanks!

Zip

I really don't like seeing people argue over which religion is right.
They are all in the same way, all connected. People need to grow up and stop thinking if you don't belive in my "god" then you shall perish. That is what is driving our society into the ground. Not the presisdents, not the people. The introduction of religion has destroyed us all.
You can belive in what ever you want. Just that if you devote your entire life to one thing, you will not go any farther, but rather back. Just remember that.

To whoever said the end times are near. They are not. Just big changes are coming. Because the changes are due.

If you feel the need to disagree with me, thats okay, you are entitled to your opinion.

Some thoughts on thee above

'Religion' was introduced on day 1.
The turn away from God put us in the state we are in now. (Adam - Eve)

I agree that all religions are basically the same. I do NOT classify Christ as a religion tho. Christianity is a relationship with God.

Christ says that all religions are not the same. Anyone who denies Christ does not have Christ OR God according to scripture.

This brings us to this thread.
God is intolerant of religion. The world unity movement is well under way. The RCC is right in the front. Christians who hold to their faith and belief in Gods word will be (ALREADY ARE) deemed intolerant.
I think The original poster is picking up on that vibe

Originally posted by Harvestfreak
I really don't like seeing people argue over which religion is right.

If you believe that your fellow man will be judged harshly for his belief in a false religion, then i would worry about the believer who chooses to say nothing...as so not to offend anybody but at the cost of their eternal soul(again assuming you'd ask someone who believe's this to not say so). Can't be mad at someone for walking like they talk, i think so anyway. It doesn't equate to extremism or zealotry to not be a hypocrite, imo.

That is what is driving our society into the ground. Not the presisdents, not the people. The introduction of religion has destroyed us all.

Not to nitpick(too much) but there has never, EVER been a society or civilization without a religion. So i don't think you can say "the introduction" has destroyed us all....it's never not been apart of civilization. Unless i've missed a memo.

To whoever said the end times are near. They are not. Just big changes are coming. Because the changes are due.

How do you make that distinction? What do you mean by "changes are due" exactly, if not a religous concept?

If you feel the need to disagree with me, thats okay, you are entitled to your opinion.

Well an agreement to disagree....ummm agreed