TerraX, I assume you are referring to Michael's recent PAR posts. If so, let's not forget that "skeptics are unable to think deeply and comprehensively or look at the Meier case in its entirety." Ummm...isn't it precisely because some of us think deeply and comprehensively and look at the case in its entirety that is cause for the skepticism?

Vogelfire, my point exactly. Even healthy skepticism such as asking about proof of Meier's reincarnation claims isn't appreciated by the more hard-core supporters of the case. Apparently the judgement is on us and not the 'second coming'.

As I've stated many times, I am able to fiercely defend certain aspects of the case, but when I look at the case as a whole, I have to consider all of the claims of the case (e.g. Billy is the reincarnation of the man commonly known as Jesus) as well as newly arisen claims (e.g. Billy can type 1200 WPM with one finger and he plays chess with the Plejarens), and I am frankly unable to swallow all this stuff hook, line and sinker. Some of these claims are the gift that just keeps giving, and just when I think they can't get any wilder . . . what do you suppose will come next?

Well, it went even further already. I read in a recent translated contact note that Meier's spiritform 'Nokodemion' is so ancient and wise that in the very distant past he 'created' new peoples on distant planets. At times he had to forcefully correct them. We here on earth are descendants of the people He, Supreme Commander Nokodemion, created. Do you see where this is getting at?

Poor Michael. He sounds so sensitive! He thinks I've promoted the new DVD with the real intention of ridiculing and belittling him? And this is coming from the master himself of ridicule and belittlement!?

Maybe he should mention in his lectures or radioshows Supreme Commander Nokodemion and how much we owe Him.

Well terra I could reply to those comments but i'm not so into chit-chat.

The thing is not many people know the whole truth and that includes me.
A problem I have is with some people who proclaim the case to be an outright hoax without any serious evidence.

I feel the spiritual info is great because it has been of a benifit to myself enourmously I could write a list if you wish. Like Michael Horn has said many times, that a lot of this case is speculative so people will have to look into it as much as possible on their own effort.

Vogel-as I said to a friend of mine, if I am indeed referred to, I find it curious how I've "failed" when said recreation hasnt even been completed.

I need to make a press release too..me thinks. Being in the biz, I think I'll call in a couple favors.

Originally posted by solarstone
Well terra I could reply to those comments but i'm not so into chit-chat.
The thing is not many people know the whole truth and that includes me.
A problem I have is with some people who proclaim the case to be an outright hoax without any serious evidence.
I feel the spiritual info is great because it has been of a benifit to myself enourmously I could write a list if you wish. Like Michael Horn has said many times, that a lot of this case is speculative so people will have to look into it as much as possible on their own effort.

Hell, I don't know the whole truth as well. Nobody does, that's why there's so much discussion over basically theoretical stuff. There's nobody in the field who can claim the absolute truth but some try nonetheless. What you can do is explore possible explanations, find out what the highest probability is given a certain situation. The UFO phenomenon itself is in my opinion proven. Radar recordings, credible witnesses (such as pilots) point to a real mystery. The contactee phenomenon is in my opinion a real occurance as well. To many sane people have stepped up and claimed to have witnessed the operators of the UFOs. But when you consider that the UFO phenomenon has a hard time being acknowledged, the contactee phenomenon has even more problems.
My take on the Meier is case is similar to that of Vogelfire. Meier did have contact(s), there are to many eyewitnesses that point to that. But there's a portion of the case that is, to put it diplomaticly, highly questionable at the very least. With this in mind I find it impossible to accept all of Meier's claims. This isn't a personal argument against you but when I see someone backing up some or all of Meier's claims then I feel justified to point out the discrepancies. To put it bluntly, I suspect that a portion of the Meier case is simply fabricated. In other words, with the case you don't get the whole truth, not even half of it.
If you feel comfortable with the teachings of the case then by all means pursue it. That's part of your constitutional rights. I consider that freedom of religion and people are free to accept or reject provided they respect the other person. I must confess that I do wonder where the teachings are going because there are some serious implications. Should the teachings attract a bigger following then I anticipate massive consequences in the future. Different religions do not exactly get along on this planet and I fear Meier's teachings would simply repeat the mistakes made in the past. Do you expect that the followers of the Islam would easily accept Meier's claims? Quite frankly I suspect the first thing they would try to do is burn the FIGU property to the ground with everyone in it. You just have to watch the news to see how far some people are willing to go. I call such probabilities massive consequences. Maybe that is something where Meier supporters should think ahead.

We should look at the Meier contact notes as a good reference to the truths of our universe. But there could be some errors as well.

Errors can happen in the contact infos in many situations.

(1) When Meier have face to face communication with the Pleiadians, he mostly communicate with his regular contactees who learned the earth language German. Also the Pleiadians have all kind of advanced language translator machines and they can pick up people's brain messages telepathically but there could be some misinterpretations in the communications on the receiving end of Meier. After all Merier is still earthling and restricted to his earthling senses and messages maybe received with some errors. This is quite possible.

(2) Meier may also added some of his personal thoughts and views in many matters either consciously or unconsciously.

But overall the contact notes are good general reference to our truth of the universe.

I kind of like to consider Stephen King when evaluating this sort of thing. He says that the key to making a story seem realistic is not to put too many details in it. The more stuff you put in, the more it can be proven to be hogwash by somebody who knows better.

So when I evaluate somebody's space story, I look for details that would be difficult if not impossible to make up. Which it tough, because I know a little about writing, and I know how to make up very convincing details, even if they're a total fiction.

I guess the test Meier has always failed for me was that he never came up with anything that a halfway decent writer couldn't also create from their own imagination.

Let's see a diagram of a simple, working electronic circuit that no one on Earth has ever created, that does something that has never been done before, and that doesn't require any special Element 115 to run. I know. Some kind of basic "subspace" radio circuit. Like a diagram for the most basic crystal radio set. SETI might be interested in something like that.

It's a simple thing. A simple request that an alien could easily provide.

That's not a request. Because what would be the point? If he could produce such a thing, he would have done it by now. What a waste of time and effort.

And shame on all you people who go along with this nonsense and make excuses for its shortcomings. Shame on you.

Originally posted by Enkidu
I kind of like to consider Stephen King when evaluating this sort of thing. He says that the key to making a story seem realistic is not to put too many details in it. The more stuff you put in, the more it can be proven to be hogwash by somebody who knows better.

So when I evaluate somebody's space story, I look for details that would be difficult if not impossible to make up. Which it tough, because I know a little about writing, and I know how to make up very convincing details, even if they're a total fiction.

I guess the test Meier has always failed for me was that he never came up with anything that a halfway decent writer couldn't also create from their own imagination.

Let's see a diagram of a simple, working electronic circuit that no one on Earth has ever created, that does something that has never been done before, and that doesn't require any special Element 115 to run. I know. Some kind of basic "subspace" radio circuit. Like a diagram for the most basic crystal radio set. SETI might be interested in something like that.

It's a simple thing. A simple request that an alien could easily provide.

That's not a request. Because what would be the point? If he could produce such a thing, he would have done it by now. What a waste of time and effort.

And shame on all you people who go along with this nonsense and make excuses for its shortcomings. Shame on you.

Goddamn, thats so true. Whats really something is...he cant produce any of the OLD stuff, never mind anything new. No original negatives, no metal samples, nothin.

Originally posted by solarstone
...I feel the spiritual info is great because it has been of a benifit to myself enourmously I could write a list if you wish...

Solarstone, I would be interested in your list of spiritual information that has been beneficial to you. Many people refer to "the spiritual teachings" without specifiying what they really are. If the TJ is part of what has been beneficial to you, can you explain how? Otherwise, what spiritual aspects of the Meier case do you find personally influential?

WOW, they are talking a lot about you J.R (and bad things) in PAR yahoo group.

This is what M.H. posted there:

"What is it now, about 3-4 months since our professional model
maker/photographer claimed he was going to knock off his version of the
Wedding Cake ship? Anybody seen anything yet...besides excuses?

Do understand, these are the types of fools who, instead of admitting
that they really don't know the truth and can't duplicate, disprove or
debunk the Meier case and its evidence, make their gas inflated
pronouncements regarding "hoaxes", "models on strings", etc. - and pass
themselves off as "experts" who should be listened to."

Wow, I think the heat is on now:


vogelfire, That's a very good question you made there to Solarstone.
Seems you won't be getting an answer (maybe there is not answer).

and now it's a very small step to get it into a tree and zoom in right?

Well yes and no. It's getting a tree in scale with however I want the ship to look (which is large of course). The scale of the tree is going to substanciate the scale of the disc, coupled with a forced perspective. I have the location picked out, but I either buy a small model tree, or make one. Maybe a 1/4 train set tree would work. We'll see.

The thing to understand is it's not the disc that makes the shot work in the classic Meier shots, it's the tree and background. You'll never see this craft in the air without the tree, or nestled within a branch. If you do such as in the van shot, the focus tells you it's close and small, and of course it's not totally in frame. In my opinion, because it's being held.

The good shots? It's with the tree. The thing practically nests in trees.

So, if anyone knows where I can get a good scale one, maybe 3ft tall, lemme know.

[edit on 22-3-2006 by jritzmann]

Holy smokes!!! lol

Now that's what we all wanted to see " THANKS A LOT J.R." you just made my day.

It's looking great and yeah I know you posted already that you will not work in their time which I agree. Like you said before they don't know how long meier took either.

Well, Jeff, what can I say now? "I told you so!"

Yes, I saw the PAR exchange, and I was right about one thing. You livened up the otherwise boring and bored forum. Besides that, brave and little 5'3" Michael really needs to beat someone up from the safety of his keyboard to the sounds of his cheering fan club. (He must have been terribly picked on as a kid!)

Are you done now? You really did the only thing you can do -- let them dance their victory, let them see what they see, let them think what they think, let them sit around and do their Peace Meditation, let them call people like TerraX and me "skeptics" (even though we've argued intelligently for the case, and they know that) let them have their elite group of believers, let them reject reasonable doubt and challenge, let them insist they are not a cult.

"Speaking words of wisdom...let it be."

[edit on 22-3-2006 by vogelfire]

Vogel-
Yup, done. I posted a separate thread here to explain myself...much better then I did at PAR, largely because I couldnt care less what they "think" (if thats such a word there).

They can dance a false Victory all they wish. MH knows full well what transpired here, he lost the debate, and I duplicated the photos...knew he lost and rather then stay and face it, he went on to get himself banned.

Nothing different would have occurred had I done all the Cake shots...it would have been the same round robin. Who needs it. Not I.

Better yet, who cares.

They always asked me what my fascination with the case was, I might as well say at this point.

It is: Why do people believe it.

The case is moderately interesting on it's own, to a point. In my area of interest in it, the visuals, it's garbage. "Walking" trees, craft made of found objects, out of focus small shots, tethered saucers, craft continually attracted to trees in a field otherwise devoid of them. But, thats what hooked alot of people on it initially.

People's perceptions intrigue me, as to how anyone could look at said photos and film and actually believe it. Or to believe anything else put forth from that point. I hate seeing people wonderment being taken advantage of.

But, who the hell am I to tell them. Theyre minds are made up, and until such time as they find it for themselves they will only know what theyre told, and proliferate it to others.

Maybe it adds up to needing to belong, or to feel like your the last holdout and have some secret knowledge others dont. Because as you and I realize, a boatload of the people who study the UFO enigma, truly serious-minded critical thinking people, dont buy a word of the case anymore. Havent in years.

Thats not without reason.

I liken dealing with PAR to a box of snakes, you put the deeds to one, and another bites from behind. Then the first one ignores your first issue and approaches another way. Thats not by accident. Not that I say they train people to do such, but it's a engrained behavior.

As I said there, they figure if they can get you pissed enough, you'll go. I hung in a long time, but when they start talking amongst themselves that theyre going to get someone they trust to "monitor" me, and report back...thats too creepy for words. Much like the good Professor badgering me for a photo, and where I lived.

If they wanted documentation, I'd have gladly had someone film me shooting and filming. Plenty of cams here.

But again, it's a calculated move, and one thats meant to throw you.

In the end, they havent "won" anything. Other then a "who can piss Jeff off til he leaves us alone" contest. Their fearless leader came here, challenged, got his challenge answered, and wussed out by not subjecting my pictures and the original Swiss pictures for the same 3rd party analysis. He was beaten, knew it, and took the easy way out. Get banned.

But, of course, he'll never comment to that.

If he wants to know what finally tilted me? The comment about my "mental state". Here is man who knows so little about me personally, yet can make such a statement...at all.

This showed me what kind of person I'm dealing with. A man who accepts a clearly tethered object on a string and thinks it's aliens from another star who can predict the future...this is a man who is concerned about *my* mental state.

Ok.

As I said, there's little point to all the round robin. I'm content enough in what I did to try and present the other view.

I refuse to even go back and read that board to see the replies. LOL..ordinarily I'd be in there every hour. So, I know at this point I dont care. I'm sure the general jist is that I couldnt duplicate the shot, so I chickened out.

Whats not understood is I already did, at least in the stills. These wouldnt have been any different, more round and round. I dont "fear" redoing the film, or I wouldnt have offered, still do-able.

I had fun building the model tho...maybe as I said one day I'll pull it out, but dont count on it.

If he wants to know what finally tilted me? The comment about my "mental state". Here is man who knows so little about me personally, yet can make such a statement...at all.

Yes, I noticed that, too. Realize that Michael is a master of projective techniques. He projects his own faults and weaknesses on others. If anyone's mental state is questionable, it's Michael's. That's been a subject and concern among researchers, private e-mails, and among people who have known Michael for a number of years.

Therefore, consider the source.

Wow! Just read thru some of this. I thought those Lion thread people were out there! These guys are right there with them!

Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction....but not in this case....

Personally, I see the Pleadians as a possible ally. I see what they are trying to do. I don't believe the ends justifies the means in all cases and I don't think being deceptive as they obviously are is sufficient reason to reject them or their help. They are not anti-Christ. But they are here to help those who are suffering as a result of the "good" Christians. If you have never been a Christian, one who was basically forced into it in the first place and then tried to leave you would know what I mean. They are all cults. They are going to try to force on you lots of false prophesies that you may have an open mind to at first and then later reject. And when you try to leave they are NOT going to let you go. I myself would never join a Muslim religion. However, I can certainly see why such an anti-Christian religion would get started in the first place. I welcome the interference of the Pleadians in so much as it has to do with deliverance from the Christians who seem to want to take over the world.