Resurected after 11 yrs,

I may have a stupid question here but im just wondering...

When people go into a coma they need to be put on a life support machine do they or can u stay off one 4 years and years ?

Also if u don't need to stay on a machine, then cud u stay alive with really shallow breathing ? The same as when people meditate u slow your breathing down. I have also seen people hooked up to heart rates and machines and they are able to slow their breathing and heart down - then when asked speed it up ( sorry i dont have evidence atm - it's too late and i have to go to bed, but i remeber this years ago it was freaky )

So what im saying is, could people mistake her 4 being dead - but she is staying alive on low bodily functions and really shallow breathing. I mean as much as one breath per minute. Because if u found an appearant dead person u wouldn't stand there for one minute checking if they were breathing. 20 seconds of no breathing or response im sure would be classified as " dead ".

Can some1 tell me please how able to cope the body is, under minimal conditions? I.e minimal breathing and coma's ??

Cheers...just throwing some more idea's to this story

Originally posted by JBurns
After 10 minutes without oxygen, your brain is dead. Gone, for good. No matter how much CPR you give, oxygen you administer, or rescue breathes, you can't bring them back.

If you're going to be so specifically correcting, make sure to mention how in some proven cases, like cold water hypothermia, you can extend the "10 minute" limit so that you're not just "gone for good".

There are exceptions to the 10 minute "rule of thumb".


[edit on 11/23/05 by redmage]

For a little macabre fun, do a google search on "'safety coffins" to learn of various patented designs for coffins with built in alarms, bells, food supplies, etc.

The fear of being buried alive has lead to some interesting creations.

www.google.com...

Originally posted by Nygdan
You mean levitate, like float? No they can't.


No one has ever been documated to have been a rotted out corpse or a cut up body and then physically ressurected.

Well that's it then, case closed. Thanks for clearing that up Nygdan. May as well lock the topic.

If, by some miracle, someone wasn't completely gone after those 10 minutes, they would have so much brain damage they would be completely vegitative, and rely 100% on life support.

Arawn, your questions:

When people go into a coma they need to be put on a life support machine do they or can u stay off one 4 years and years ?

Yes, you can stay on life support.

cud u stay alive with really shallow breathing?

Depends, how many respirations per minute does this person have? It's just like an agonal respiration, which is almost just as bad as extremely fast, or none at all. As long as it can supply your body with enough oxygen to support your vital functions, then you should be fine. Otherwise, you'll need to be put on a ventilator.

So what im saying is, could people mistake her 4 being dead - but she is staying alive on low bodily functions and really shallow breathing. I mean as much as one breath per minute.

1 bpm isn't enough to supply adequate oxygen to your brain, let alone the rest of your body. If someone is apneatic, asystole, and completely not responsive, then they're dead. And after 10 minutes, by all standards, they're hopeless.

[edit on 11/23/2005 by JBurns]

Lmao, this is too funny.

Here ya go asala:

"* THIS IS NOT A JOKE*"

"How to make a Zombie"

www.rotteneggs.com...

Or:

"In 1980, a man appeared in a rural Haitian village. He claimed to be Clairvius Narcisse, who had died in Albert Schweitzer Hospital in Deschapelles, Haiti on May 2, 1962. Narcisse described being conscious but paralyzed during his presumed death - he had even seen the doctor cover his face with a sheet. Narcisse claimed that a bokor had resurrected him and made him a zombie."

"Narcisse answered questions about his family and childhood that not even a close friend could have known. Eventually, his family and many outside observers agreed that he was a zombie returned to life."

people.howstuffworks.com...

Or:

"Haitian Zombie Powder"

people.howstuffworks.com...

Originally posted by JBurns
If, by some miracle, someone wasn't completely gone after those 10 minutes, they would have so much brain damage they would be completely vegitative, and rely 100% on life support.

I'm a certified diver and both of my parents were "search and rescue" divers for local, and area, police depts.

I have read and heard of people being underwater for up to 30 minutes that have gone on to productive self reliant lives, so your claim of "100% on life support" simply isn't true.

"Cold water near-drowning victims have been revived after as long as one hour under water. Professional medical care is needed to resuscitate these victims, but rescuers should not give up on victims of extended cold water submersion. "

www.seagrant.umn.edu...

Now in an hour long situation, it very well might require more lifelong "artificial" measures like you describe, but this does show your "10 minute can't be revived" statements earlier are false and mere assumption.


[edit on 11/23/05 by redmage]

I'm a certified EMT, I think I know a little bit about this kind of stuff.

People with oxygen? If they didn't have oxygen, and they were underwater for 30 minutes, they would have drowned. As in the reaction that you can't control, when your body just tries to suck in air.

Have any references to these stories you've read? If I'm wrong, I'd gladly revise our EMS guides, and the Office of Emergency Medical Services. If you pull someone out of freezing cold water, after more than an hour, they would have been long dead. I for one would not even attempt to resucitate such a person.

From the American Hearth Association
Brain death and permanent death start to occur in just 4 to 6 minutes after someone experiences cardiac arrest. Cardiac arrest can be reversed if it's treated within a few minutes with an electric shock to the heart to restore a normal heartbeat. This process is called defibrillation. A victim's chances of survival are reduced by 7 to 10 percent with every minute that passes without defibrillation. Few attempts at resuscitation succeed after 10 minutes.

Obviously with the 7-10% window, if it were just 7%, then after 10 minutes it'd just be reduced by 70%. However, by our general standards, 10 minutes is the point where we say "ok, they're gone".

[edit on 11/23/2005 by JBurns]

JBurns, i see where you are coming from with this. However sometimes things happen that can't be explained - that are a little out of the ordinary. Some would say "paranormal". It's kind of hopeless trying to use scientific logic and apply it to such cases. You serve no purpose on either side of the argument. I think a little thinking outside of the box is in order. Clearly the article posted isn't going to be explained away by modern science as we know it today... But does that make it untrue?

Originally posted by JBurns
I'm a certified EMT, I think I know a little bit about this kind of stuff.

That's great but the key word there is "little".

Are you a doctor, or do you have extensive specialized training in underwater cold water related rescue and resuscitation?

Originally posted by JBurns
If they didn't have oxygen, and they were underwater for 30 minutes, they would have drowned. As in the reaction that you can't control, when your body just tries to suck in air.

Yes, they have drowned and are clinically dead (or at least appear to be), and yes they can be resuscitated.

"Don't have oxygen?" Here you're showing your ignorance of the biological processes involved in hypothermia.

Originally posted by JBurns
Have any references to these stories you've read?

Mostly scuba related rescue training manuals and specialist guest speakers.

I already provided one "online" link but will add more below.

Originally posted by JBurns
If I'm wrong, I'd gladly revise our EMS guides, and the Office of Emergency Medical Services.

Since you apparently have that authority, you should, you could make a fortune since you obviously know more than doctors and trained specialists in the field.

Originally posted by JBurns
If you pull someone out of freezing cold water, after more than an hour, they would have been long dead.

More than an hour? I believe what was said is "as long as one hour", no reference to "more" there.

Originally posted by JBurns
I for one would not even attempt to resucitate such a person.

From prior link: "rescuers should not give up on victims of extended cold water submersion"

"not even attempt "? Maybe it's your lack of training and understanding of the processes involved, but I have a close friend who is an EMT and unless the drowning victim is bloated, decomposing, or known to be under for at least 2 hours(in ice water) or more, they always at least make an attempt.

He also became an EMT through a 2 year course at a community college and would never second guess a doctor (with years more training) or specialists (who know vastly more on specific subjects) in their respective fields.

I suggest you research hypothermia and the diving reflex to see how the body can conserve oxygen for extended periods, and divert it to critical functions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------
"it consists of a slowing of the heart beat, a decrease or cessation of respiration and a dramatic change in the circulation of the blood with circulation only to the most inner core of the body, the heart, lungs and brain. The casual observer sees this victim as cold, blue and not breathing. These victims appear dead."

"Cold water immersion victims may look dead but may be entirely resuscitatable"

"Remember: Cold water near-drowning is more survivable than previously thought. Submersions as long as an hour can in some circumstances be fully resuscitated. Cold water may be protective to some body systems as oxygen needs are markedly reduced. "

scuba-doc.com...

"Most persons recovered in cold water "near" drowning cases show the typical symptoms of death:"

"Cyanotic (blue) skin coloration"

"No detectable breathing"

"No apparent pulse or heartbeat"

"Pupils fully dilated (opened)"

"These symptoms, it was discovered, did not always mean the victim was dead. The diving reflex is a protective mechanism for humans in cold water immersions, but it may confuse the rescuer into thinking the victim is dead. Resuscitative efforts for these victims should be started immediately utilizing CPR in accordance with your training."

"Remember, numerous children have been brought up from freezing water after 30 minutes and been successfully resuscitated."

www.ussartf.org...


[edit on 11/23/05 by redmage]

Originally posted by JBurns

From the American Hearth Association
Brain death and permanent death start to occur in just 4 to 6 minutes after someone experiences cardiac arrest. Cardiac arrest can be reversed if it's treated within a few minutes with an electric shock to the heart to restore a normal heartbeat. This process is called defibrillation. A victim's chances of survival are reduced by 7 to 10 percent with every minute that passes without defibrillation. Few attempts at resuscitation succeed after 10 minutes.

Obviously with the 7-10% window, if it were just 7%, then after 10 minutes it'd just be reduced by 70%. However, by our general standards, 10 minutes is the points where we say "ok, they're gone".

OMG!!!, you're a an "EMT" and you think cardiac arrest and cold water drownings (hypothermia) are one and the same!!!!

Do you use defibrillation to treat severe burns as well? :shk:

What's next, radiologic cancer treatment procedures to prove your false, uneducated points.

Please tell me you are retired or no longer working, or........

Deny Ignorance, live up to the "scholar" title over your avatar, and actually research hypothermia and the diving reflex to see how the body can conserve oxygen for extended periods, and divert it to critical functions.

If you truly are an EMT, it could actually help you save a life that would otherwise be needlessly lost.


[edit on 11/23/05 by redmage]

Good question maybe cause its BS or since the beliefs of these countries hold larger faith in things beyond doctors.

Also to the post that said its not possible since the brain goes dead after 10 minutes. Well again this is not a medical procedure its a supernatural event. I never seen fifty lbs of gold but I believe it exsists because people say so what is the difference?

It should not be considered possible however as what if I show you proof what will you do? Next thing you know everyone is doing this.

Originally posted by Englishman_in_Spain
Why do these events always seem to take place in remote, primitive third world countries where the ability to obtain documentary evidence is non existent?

[edit on 18-11-2005 by Englishman_in_Spain]

[edit on 24-11-2005 by japike]

OMG!!!, you're a an "EMT" and you think cardiac arrest and cold water drownings (hypothermia) are one and the same!!!!

Of course I don't think they're one in the same. But they both have the same effect to your brain.

Do you use defibrillation to treat severe burns as well?

No.

What's next, radiologic cancer treatment procedures to prove your false, uneducated points.

I'm not an Oncologist, so I don't treat cancer.

Please tell me you are retired or no longer working, or........

Nope, just got certified.

Deny Ignorance, live up to the "scholar" title over your avatar, and actually research hypothermia and the diving reflex to see how the body can conserve oxygen for extended periods, and divert it to critical functions.

As a matter of fact, I just did some research: health.howstuffworks.com...

The brain cannot store oxygen.

Now that we have established that the brain doesn't store oxygen, and if your lungs are filled with water, it definetly isn't getting it from them. So where else? Your heart? If your heart doesn't get oxygen, it'll die too.

If you truly are an EMT, it could actually help you save a life that would
otherwise be needlessly lost.

If I arrive on scene, and we pull a victim from the water, who is blue (which would happen, considering they drowned), not breathing, does not have a pulse (which you wouldn't since your not breathing..), and completely not responsive, I wouldn't be asking for a trauma bag, I'd be asking for a body bag. Obviously if we felt that there was any chance for them to be resucitated, then we would try it.

Edit:

Japike, supernaturally speaking, I can't say it's impossible. The very definition of supernatural says that pretty much anything is possible. Medically speaking, however, 10 minutes is the cut off point for irreversible brain death.

[edit on 11/24/2005 by JBurns]

it consists of a slowing of the heart beat, a decrease or cessation of respiration and a dramatic change in the circulation of the blood with circulation only to the most inner core of the body, the heart, lungs and brain. The casual observer sees this victim as cold, blue and not breathing. These victims appear dead."

That's a good theory, but there is one loophole there. Even IF that happened, and blood was still circulating to the lungs, there is still that fact that they're completely filled with water.

Originally posted by JBurns

OMG!!!, you're a an "EMT" and you think cardiac arrest and cold water drownings (hypothermia) are one and the same!!!!

Of course I don't think they're one in the same.

Then stop trying to use unrelated material to prove your false assumptions on hypothermia, cold-water drownings, and the diving reflex.

Originally posted by JBurns
But they both have the same effect to your brain.

Not even close. :shk:

Originally posted by JBurns

Please tell me you are retired or no longer working, or........

Nope, just got certified.

I can only hope that your continued training is better than what you've recieved so far.

Furthermore, I find it quite disturbing that someone who admittedly "just got certified" claims to know more than actual doctors and specialists who have years more training and experience. :shk:

Originally posted by JBurns

Deny Ignorance, live up to the "scholar" title over your avatar, and actually research hypothermia and the diving reflex to see how the body can conserve oxygen for extended periods, and divert it to critical functions.

As a matter of fact, I just did some research: health.howstuffworks.com...

More unrelated research :shk: and a dead link :shk:

Again, what we are dealing with is "hypothermia and the diving reflex"

Look at the working links provided, or research hypothermia and the diving reflex on your own.

Originally posted by JBurns

The brain cannot store oxygen.

Now that we have established that the brain doesn't store oxygen, and if your lungs are filled with water, it definetly isn't getting it from them. So where else? Your heart? If your heart doesn't get oxygen, it'll die too.

More ignorance and topic shifting.

Of course the brain doesn't store oxygen.

Neither I, nor my sources, claimed it did. :shk:

However, blood does store/carry oxygen, and when it is diverted, not used by "unnescessary" functions, to go to strictly core functions, the body conserves the oxygen within and can survive longer.

Try researching related material.

I've provided links, know specialists, and have shown that you are repeatedly arguing apples and oranges.

Stop with the BS and trying to prove you're right by showing unrelated material.

Research hypothermia, cold-water drowning, and the diving reflex.

It could help you save a life needlessly lost.


[edit on 11/25/05 by redmage]

Originally posted by JBurns

it consists of a slowing of the heart beat, a decrease or cessation of respiration and a dramatic change in the circulation of the blood with circulation only to the most inner core of the body, the heart, lungs and brain. The casual observer sees this victim as cold, blue and not breathing. These victims appear dead."

That's a good theory, but there is one loophole there. Even IF that happened, and blood was still circulating to the lungs, there is still that fact that they're completely filled with water.

Not "theory", it's fact.

You are neglecting the fact that conservation of oxygen, by "a dramatic change in the circulation of the blood", can keep you able to be revived after extended (over 10 minute) periods in cold water.

Research related material.

It's easy online, you're just showing bullheaded laziness.

1) Go to www.google.com...

2) Type "diving reflex", "hypothermia", and/or "cold-water drowning"

3) Read

Or, if you'd like something more comprehensive, become a certified scuba diver and get specialized training in underwater search, rescue, and resuscitation.

Another route would be to go to med-school and actually become a doctor (with a greater understanding of human biological processes).


[edit on 11/25/05 by redmage]

I'm shocked at this "EMT" and his lack of knowledge regarding cold-water drownings. I thought it was common knowledge that if you fell in an icy lake and were submerged for an extended period there would be a good chance of resuscitation?

As long as the core body temperature drops quickly enough, the bodies metabolism slows sufficiently before oxygen starvation kicks in, allowing persons to survive for extended periods. There have been cases of up to 80 minutes, although this is rare.

I just hope that if I fall in an icy lake your not the EMT that turns up to rescue me.

Originally posted by stumason
I'm shocked at this "EMT" and his lack of knowledge regarding cold-water drownings. I thought it was common knowledge that if you fell in an icy lake and were submerged for an extended period there would be a good chance of resuscitation?

As long as the core body temperature drops quickly enough, the bodies metabolism slows sufficiently before oxygen starvation kicks in, allowing persons to survive for extended periods. There have been cases of up to 80 minutes, although this is rare.

Exactly

We just have to keep in mind that he is only an EMT, not a doctor, or a specialist in underwater related search and rescue (although I am surprised that his "EMT training" didn't cover these types of situations ; maybe if he were in the coast guard the training would have been more comprehensive in these matters) .

Originally posted by stumason
I just hope that if I fall in an icy lake your not the EMT that turns up to rescue me.

Agreed.


[edit on 11/25/05 by redmage]

You guy's are going to think what you do, and I'll think what I do. I was never told about this, and I still seriously doubt this as being a possibility.

redmage and burns...

i've enjoyed your exchange.... i notice jburns is a fighter, why don't you two take it up in the debate forum? (not instigating or anything- LOL! but would really like to see this exchange continue and read all your findings!) i can't recall much on the topic offhand, but i have read about instances where they have 'brought back' people who had been submerged for long periods of time... lengths of time that would have normally killed the accident victim if not for the cold.... i believe they've even used this technique of 'cooling the body' to perform certain types of surgeries which would otherwise be too dangerous to attempt... seems that the cold slows down the bodily functions to an extent that less oxygen is required to maintain life without sustaining damage. no, folks couldn't 'freeze' indefinitely before eventual death, but then again... why would anyone bother studying cryogenics? somewhere along the way, folks have taken note that there is a physical response within the body to colder temperatures, which bends the known rules for a warm-bodied individual near death.... it seems as an EMT you would have access to and be able to ask the medical opinion of professionals and provide their responses within your debate (again, not instigating ... ok, maybe i am just a weeee bit! )

what say the two of you? can colder temperatures prolong life, bring back someone whose symptoms would indicate 'nearly dead'? looks to me you've a great start... i for one would like to see it progress!!! (don't hate me!)

~am