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NEWS: US Used White Phosphorus in Iraq

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posted on Nov, 16 2005 @ 10:10 PM
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I suppose know that the US needs to develop kinder and gentler ammunitions and weaponry?


No problem at all with terrorist and insurgents using nails and ball bearings to wipe innocent civilains from the face of the map though, correct?

At any rate:
US defends use of white phosphorus
U.S. official admits phosphorus used as weapon in Iraq

And to add to the topic, the mystery of the "brutal new weapon, used in the battle of Fallujah":
Marines Quiet About Brutal New Weapon

And Thermobaric ammunition:
When a Gun Is More Than a Gun

I do find it highly ironic that the book, "No True Glory", which gives an objective and critical look at and into the battle of Fallujah, makes NO mention of the massive use of white phosphorous against anyone, much less against civilians.






seekerof

[edit on 16-11-2005 by Seekerof]




posted on Nov, 16 2005 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by alphabetaone
that arent harming anyone around them lets says, oh i dont know, in the middle of NYC and they are fighting against occupation by lets say the Chinese,

Firstly, this line of logic is heavily flawed just as the "morals" you wish to preach. About your gang of 100 who " arent harming anyone around" and comparing them to the insurgents in Iraq is the height of fantasy. The periodic car bombs, suicide missions etc are not phantom occurances but daily happenings that are orchestrated by these terrorists.
You see them as a bunch of people who "arent harming anyone around" ??
That is absurd !!
If they are fighting against an occuping force, it should be seen as an organized "force" and not a band of cowardly terrorists for them to be considered as a force representative of the people, which the terrorists in Iraq are not , so the Geneva Protocol doesnt hold true to them.



Now to ensure you get those hundred out of the way so they arent trouble any longer, you figure the best thing to do is a massive sweep with lets say a CHEMICAL WEAPON for the sake of argument lets call it White Phosphorous

In case you cant read and understand my post[page 4], I have already proven beyond all doubt that WP is NOT a chemical weapon in any sense of the word nor is it a precursor to such a weapon. [see the CWC].


but seriously I start to question the morality of some of you people sometimes....then we wonder why these horrific things take place? Because no one sees any thing wrong with em!

And I yours!
I question the morality of those who are so blinded by their hate for America, and Bush that they cannot discern the workings of terrorism, instead they find ways to justify it by some psuedo-righteous moralistic propaganda which they seek to indoctrinate in all the unsuspecting and ignorant. What morality do they expect, when they have shown NONE ??
What has happened IS horrific but NOT undeserved. In fact, I feel they are treated too fairly and with too much caution then they ever were under Saddam and this has lead them to histrionics and arrogance.



posted on Nov, 16 2005 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by Nerdling
Can you explain to me why its not a chemical weapon?


I CAN and I HAVE !!
Check out my post on page 3 of this thread. All the conventions that apply have been included.



[edit on 17-11-2005 by IAF101]



posted on Nov, 16 2005 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by Jakomo

The United States of America, based on these and other actions in Iraq, are a ROGUE TERRORIST NATION that ignores international law and human rights and the Geneva Convention.

Again the ignorance!

HAve you ever read the Geneva Protocol ? The US is fighting an internal conflict that isnt covered by the Protocol, also the protocol only applies if both sides follow it.
Confess your HATE for America || DENY IGNORANCE .

[edit on 16-11-2005 by IAF101]



posted on Nov, 16 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by Dr Love
How conveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenient!!

What do you mean convient? The US is saying that it won't sign that treaty, its not convient, its a concious decision.

These treaties are pointless anyway. The US isn't fighting an enemy that is party to any treaties, and these treaties are just a way of saying 'we wont' do that'. So why sign it? The days of battles between legitimate states that are governened by 'international law' are over, gone the way of the volley fire and mounted cavalry. If the US is against bombing civilians, its simply just going to not bomb them, not sign some document thats going to be used against it when civilians are killed, or, like in this instance, to claim that using white phosphorous against un-uniformed militants is a crime.

The US uses napalm on its enemies. Napalm is not illegal. Shot-guns are illegal in war. VX gas is illegal. Blister agents are illegal. But naplam, bombs that ignite air, or even pouring molten screeching white phosphourous on your enemies, are not illegal.

edit to add:
Also, lets keep in mind, WP is not just some explosive. This is a chemical that burns, and its killing effect is not generated primarily by its explosion, the explosion merely spreads it. WP will kill you be smearing onto your skin, burning in contact with air and water, and being immpossible to smother or put out. It will burn and bubble through your skin, muscle, fat, and bone, the only way to stop it is to chop chunks of it outta your body. Its a disgusting and horrible weapon. Indeed, there are toxic nerve agents that are probably a hell of a lot more humane than it, even more human than bullets, which, I imagine, are also a brutal thing to have riddled throughout your body. War is a nasty disgusting thing. If the insurgents don't want WP, Napalm, thermobaric bombs, bullets, garouts, even genetic (many of them act as tribes, ie, inter-related genetic copies) and psychological weapons, used against them, then they'll have to stop fighting.

[edit on 16-11-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 12:34 AM
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hey all, great posts by both sides, but war is war nothing fair about it, if you dont like whats going on overseas please turn off your tv's and do not pick up a newspaper. again war is war.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by Nerdling
Can you explain to me why its not a chemical weapon?


I CAN and I HAVE !!
Check out my post on page 4 of this thread. All the conventions that apply have been included.




theres no posts of yours on page 4??

phosphorus IS a chemical.

Chemical Database
White phosphorus, dry
Identifications
UN/NA ID: UN1381
Synonyms:
White phosphorus, dry


and when dropped or exploded on a target , that makes it a weapon.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin

theres no posts of yours on page 4??

Your right it is page 3 .


phosphorus IS a chemical.

Correct. Just as the lead that is used in bullets. Being a chemical doesnt make it a "chemical weapon" .
If that were the case, even a squirt gun would be considered as a chemical weapon as H2o is a chemical also!

To be called a chemical weapon it must satisfy the definition given of a chemical weapon in the CWC Schedules 1 to 3, phosphorus is not present either as chemical or a precursor to a weapon in these schedules.
Again it is on page 3.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 01:56 AM
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Every American should praise God every day that they have a government willing to bomb their enemies with burning phosphorous.

To all that live in a country that takes a holier-than-thou attitude and says we won't do that, even to people who follow no rules of warfare at all and would just assume cut off your head as look you, I say God have mercy on your souls.

[edit on 11/17/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Every American should praise God every day that they have a government willing to bomb their enemies with burning phosphorous.

To all that live in a country that takes a holier-than-thou attitude and says we won't do that, even to people who follow no rules of warfare at all and would just assume cut off your head as look you, I say God have mercy on your souls.

[edit on 11/17/2005 by djohnsto77]



By your ethos then , every North Korean should praise God that they have a government willing to bomb there enemies with nukes.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
By your ethos then , every North Korean should praise God that they have a government willing to bomb there enemies with nukes.


That doesn't quite work because

1) The communist North Koreans are atheists
2) More importantly, the retaliation would mean total devastation for their entire country, earning them nothing.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 03:25 AM
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1) That may or may not be true , as any religeon is unknown.

2)I totally disagree

www.johnstonsarchive.net...

please read , even 3 nukes would be devastating for the USA.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 05:04 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
edit to add:
If the insurgents don't want WP, Napalm, thermobaric bombs, bullets, garouts, even genetic (many of them act as tribes, ie, inter-related genetic copies) and psychological weapons, used against them, then they'll have to stop fighting.

[edit on 16-11-2005 by Nygdan]


Okay, but what do the civilians living in the city this stuff was used over have to do? I'm not particularly concerned about the insurgents...I'm concerned about the civilians in the population center this was used at.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 05:23 AM
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Every opportunity and warning was given to evacuate before we went in, and most of the city did. There wasn't much more we could have done to minimize casualties with the civilians.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 05:25 AM
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yes there was , but thats for another discussion.

and , some reports place the amount of people in the city at over 100,000 out of a population of 350,000



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
Every opportunity and warning was given to evacuate before we went in, and most of the city did. There wasn't much more we could have done to minimize casualties with the civilians.


Don't think so!

I think you have your Fallujah battles mixed up. Yes, the citizens were urged to evacuate Fallujah in APRIL 2004 prior to the retaliatory attack after the 4 security personnel were murdered and burned. That's not this battle. This battle was in NOVEMBER 2004. And thought he U.S. military have repeatedly stated after the November attack an estimate of 90% of the civilian population fleeing the city prior to the attack, there is no proof that I can find that there was ever a warning to anyone of the November attack. And since the U.S. military is the one that lied in the first place about using WP as a weapon during this battle, I'm not going with any statistics they have to offer.

Immediately after the November attack...


The London-based humanitarian group Amnesty International issued a statement Sunday, saying it feared a "failure by parties to the fighting to take precautions to protect non-combatants."


www.cnn.com...



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 06:22 AM
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Yesterday I posted on this subject after hearing about it on NPR. They said it was used to flush out the enemy and not deadly. Last night CNN said that WP can Burn to the bone that sounds quite lethal. I have heard that the present regime was not happy with the left leaning NPR so they replaced key board members or higher ups with their lackeys. Was that story from NPR framed to reassure the American public that alls well with the world and that warreally isn't hell it's purgatory?



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 06:24 AM
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I've heard stories on three or four sources, and they all said from the start that it was used to flush out the combatants, and they then dropped an airstrike, or artillery on them, or just shot them as they were running out of the trenches and spider holes. They mentioned what it CAN do, but they all then went on to say that it was used as a psychological weapon.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 06:33 AM
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Originally posted by Valhall
there is no proof that I can find that there was ever a warning to anyone of the November attack.

There is no proof that I can find that there was never a warning to anyone of the November attack.


The London-based humanitarian group Amnesty International issued a statement Sunday, saying it feared a "failure by parties to the fighting to take precautions to protect non-combatants."


Val, its Amnesty International! What did you expect them to say? maybe you thought they would say "both parties did a good, nice, moral job of destroying human life today."



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 06:46 AM
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I see we are back to calling people who are against all this "unpatriotic"...That stopped working a couple years ago. Dissent is part of our country. Holding our leaders accountable is part of our CONSTITUTION. Don't you EVER tell me I hate America.

This continuous attempt to justify the use of WP or napalm or DU is sickening. There is such a thing as humanity and decency. As a country that is supposed to be a leader of the world, we are just showing over and over again that we cannot responsibly hold that position. The world is watching, and they aren't impressed. If you want to use Iraq and the horrible things we are doing there to claim a moral high-ground...it isn't working...here or abroad.



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