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Senator McCain, your comment please?

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posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 09:52 AM
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Sadist exist in the military as in the rest of society. You would think that sadists would gravitate to the jobs where they get to exercise their perversions. Sado-masochism is a very strange personality disorder manufesting itself in the most bizarre behavior, not always torture.

Normal, well adjusted individuals with a sense of right and wrong and morality do not make good interrigators. If you were taught as a youth to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" torture would be abhorrent.

I think I'll side with the Prince of Peace on this issue.
To me it seems that for some Christians to advocate torture, is the height of hypocracy. Either you accept the teachings of the Master or you don't!

i don't want to sound holier than thou on this issue. I'm not so naive as to believe that war dosen't change personalities on a grand scale. This is not an condemnation, just an observation from a sinner.

[edit on 14-11-2005 by whaaa]




posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What are "tough interrogation tactics" and "techniques now being employed"? Do these people know what they voted for? "Whatever it takes? But they don't want to hear about it...To support something ("whatever it takes") then say you don't want to know the specifics, is a cop out. A classic ostrich maneuver.


Quoted for truth


Exactly my sentiments of this poll, couldn't have said it better myself.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by ferretman
For all the individuals against torture, are you against all methods?

Since methods and degrees of torture can vary what are/would be the acceptable ways?


That's not even the point. There are several issues that need to be examined here:

- The information received under duress is not dependable. In other words, You can get someone to admit to something they didn't do, or to lie under torture. They'll say anything to make it stop. So the information is not reliable.

- We don't know if the 'suspect' even has the information. So, if he doesn't, we have just tortured another human being for NO REASON. Live with that.

- Torture is the last hope of a desperate people. People want to believe it works, but it doesn't. They want SOMETHING, some piece of information, some way to save and protect themselves. Anything. That's desperation.

- The practice of torture very likely harms the torturer as much if not more than the tortured. Put yourself in the position where you're hearing the screams, where you're causing the screams. Imagine how you would feel if you were the person causing the pain. See the blood, hear the bones crack, hear the cries, the moans, the pleading. Then go back to your safe barracks and go to bed. Rest there under the warm blankets with yourself. Only you... If you slow down for long enough to think about what you've done to another human being, how do you feel about yourself?

Yeah, it's easy to sit here behind our computer screens (or with our heads in the sand) and support torture, "whatever it takes", but to me, that's cowardly. You support torture? Then you need to know what it is and get out there and do it. Hear it. Stop being a tough-talking bully. If you (and I don't mean anyone in particular) support the torture of possibly innocent human beings, then you should at least have the guts to know what it is you support. Otherwise, it's chickencrap.

An excellent article:
The Torture Myth



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 10:36 AM
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'what ever it takes'.....so i don't want to hear any bellyaching over 'americans' being subject to 'whatever it takes', humiliation and other 'means' to obtain 'valuable' info.

so much for a society that is above all that. there is no moral high ground in AMERIKA....just look at politicians..the 'leaders' of this country...............that is the standard that America is being brought DOWN to..........



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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What about the use of Soduim Pentathal....or some other type of truth sereum?

You an item like this be manditory? Most of the 'lower' individuals would not have the training to be able to decieve under items like this....

Is there really a 'truth sereum' anyways?



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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What you people think that US didn't torture people for information in WW2, Korea or Vietnam. There is nothing new here, it is just that it's come out in the public.
Maybe you should be examining more than the current administrations failures, try looking at your military history. Seems the tried and true methods always seem to be brought back probably; as unsavory as it is, because it works.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
What you people think that US didn't torture people for information in WW2, Korea or Vietnam. There is nothing new here, it is just that it's come out in the public.


I'm not saying it wasn't used in the past; that unfortunate history cannot be changed.

What I am saying is that we can, and should, learn from our mistakes to change the present and future.

Especially if we (our leaders) want to preach the "moral highground".


Originally posted by rogue1
Seems the tried and true methods always seem to be brought back probably; as unsavory as it is, because it works.


If you consider admiting to anything as working, then you're after retribution not intelligence or the truth.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by redmage
I'm not saying it wasn't used in the past; that unfortunate history cannot be changed.

What I am saying is that we can, and should, learn from our mistakes to change the present and future.

Especially if we (our leaders) want to preach the "moral highground".


America has always preached the ' moral high ground ', but has used torture as a tool in previous conflicts. Nothing has changed and American leaders ckung to the moral high ground even more so than today.



Originally posted by rogue1
Seems the tried and true methods always seem to be brought back probably; as unsavory as it is, because it works.


If you consider admiting to anything as working, then you're after retribution not intelligence or the truth.


I don't understand what your saying
If the information has been retrieved and is correct, then I would say it works. Torture has worked ion the past and as long as it works, it'll kept on being used.
If no useful information was extracted, the US wouldn't bother using it.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by curme

By a nearly 2-to-1 margin, Americans support U.S. interrogators doing "whatever it takes" to get information from terrorist suspects who might be planning attacks against U.S. interests.


The question is kind of misleading. Who wouldn't support torturing those guys? But when will we know if we have those guys? People getting caught-up in a round-up; people getting turned-in for reward money (extortion); it's all fun and games torturing Osama, but until we have a way to distinguish between a bomber and a pick-pocket (like, oh I don't know, a trial), torturing doesn't sound like the party hit everyone is making it out to be.

I'm sure if you had a poll, "Is it ok to torture murders to force them to confess," Americans would love it. But change it to , "Is it ok to torture this guy we picked-up yesterday. Not sure exactly who he is, but he smells funny." Americans would probably be less inclined.


What good does torture do anyway? Stick a chem-light up my butt and I'll confess to anything you like. Two of them? I'll confess to shotting JFK!


You have voted curme for the Way Above Top Secret award.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
Maybe you should be examining your military history. Seems the tried and true methods always seem to be brought back probably; as unsavory as it is, because it works.


By this assumption/mentality, it's ok for us to break out the whole gamut of weapons banned under the Geneva Conventions, chemical, biological, etc.

Use it all cuz it "works"?


Originally posted by rogue1
America has always preached the ' moral high ground ', but has used torture as a tool in previous conflicts. Nothing has changed


And you see no problem with these continued lies and hypocracies?

A rapist can get a lot of sex, but if he keeps doing wrong eventually he'll be punished.

Should he keep it up just to get more cuz it "worked" in the past, or learn from his mistakes and stop?


[edit on 11/14/05 by redmage]



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:54 AM
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What Have We Become?

By Molly Ivins



"We do not torture," said our pitifully inarticulate president, straining through emphasis and repetition to erase the obvious.
...
Who are we? What have we become? The shining city on a hill, the beacon and bastion of refuge and freedom, a country born amidst the most magnificent ideals of freedom and justice, the greatest political heritage ever given to any people anywhere.
...
If you are dead to all sense of morality (please let me not go off on the stinking sanctimony of this crowd), let us still reason together on the famous American common ground of practicality. Torture. Does. Not. Work.
...
Why did we bother to beat the Soviet Union if we were just going to become it? Shame. Shame. Shame.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by redmage
There are many methods of social engineering and psychological "mind games" to get valuable information out of someone, you just need to be smart enough to exploit one's weaknesses and comfort zones.


True, but have you not seen that, lacking all perspective, the so-called humanitarians want to call that torture too? Is sleep deprivation really torture? Is being forced to listen to loud music at all hours really torture? Is the naked pyramid game (while certainly disgusting and vulgar) really torture?

I just have a really hard time equating those with burning someone's genitals off with an overheated cheese slicer, or cutting someone's eyes off, or breaking their limbs or any other serious PHYSICAL abuse.

So am I pro-torture? Not a chance. Am I pro-"aggressive interrogation"? Yep.

And am I smart enough and honest enough to tell the difference? You bet.

What about you folks?

Edit: Read a little further; little more to say. I keep reading about the "moral high-ground," but I can't think of a time when America has claimed to take the moral high-ground. I can think of instances when non-Americans have claimed that we make that claim, and I can think of instances (like here) when people who want to make a point claim that America claims the moral high ground. But, I can't think of when America actually claims it. Not being facetious; help out if you can.

Also, I keep reading in these posts that torture doesn’t work. Again, not advocating for torture, but how do you know? Is it because some talking-points told you so? Have you been tortured? Did you just use the awesome power of your own logic to determine that it doesn’t work? And are you really suggesting that the only reason humans have tortured other humans for all of history is that “sadists need work too”? That’s ridiculous.

You people don’t know any better than me whether torture works. And neither does some armchair sociologist. Stop trying to back up your feelings (which are admirable in their humanitarian bent, and you are all great people for that) with either no evidence, or “evidence” from opinion columnists who have no idea what they are talking about and neither do their office-bound sources. Honestly folks, if all you have to back an assertion is an editorial, just don’t use anything at all but your own good thinking. That’s like me telling you that I know torture ALWAYS produces proper results, ‘cause I read it in Dave Barry, and he was backed up by a Gary Larson cartoon.

[edit on 14-11-2005 by Hamburglar]



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by Hamburglar
True, but have you not seen that, lacking all perspective, the so-called humanitarians want to call that torture too?


Some but not all.


Originally posted by Hamburglar
I just have a really hard time equating those with burning someone's genitals off with an overheated cheese slicer, or cutting someone's eyes off, or breaking their limbs or any other serious PHYSICAL abuse.


Serious physical abuse is what has been reported such as sodomy with flourescent light tubes as a lesser example.


Originally posted by Hamburglar
So am I pro-torture? Not a chance. Am I pro-"aggressive interrogation"? Yep.


Agreed


Originally posted by Hamburglar
And am I smart enough and honest enough to tell the difference? You bet.


If only those doing the interrogations had those senses.



Originally posted by Hamburglar
but I can't think of a time when America has claimed to take the moral high-ground.


I'm heading to work so if no one finds a link by the time I get back, I'll show ya



Originally posted by Hamburglar
Also, I keep reading in these posts that torture doesn’t work. Again, not advocating for torture, but how do you know?


There's quite a history of police beating false confessions out of people in decades past.

Many a county has lost lawsuits over this, and it cost them greatly, which is why the practice is no longer used (among other more obvious reasons).

People will say anything to make the pain stop.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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Ok, let me get this straight.

Terrorists use torture= Evil
Bush Praises/supports torture= Good

Humanitarians don't support torture= Evil
Republicans support torturing American Citizens who might maybe could be probably not but there is that 1% chance know of maybe an attack= Good

Just making sure I was getting this right.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 02:46 PM
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Hamburglar:

True, but have you not seen that, lacking all perspective, the so-called humanitarians want to call that torture too? Is sleep deprivation really torture? Is being forced to listen to loud music at all hours really torture? Is the naked pyramid game (while certainly disgusting and vulgar) really torture?


Is sleep deprivation torture? Are you serious? Of course it is. You're stopping a natural process of the human body. Have you ever been forced to stay awake under bright lights and loud noises for 72 hours? Go try it and see how fun it is. It can kill you or seriously harm your brain.

Forced to listen to loud music for many many hours at a time? Duh, yeah, that's torture too. They're not in a nightclub, they're held in a tiny room.


I just have a really hard time equating those with burning someone's genitals off with an overheated cheese slicer, or cutting someone's eyes off, or breaking their limbs or any other serious PHYSICAL abuse.


It's a question of degrees. If you are willing to sexually molest your prisoners to get them to talk, how many steps is it to actually cut off their penises?

How about "water-boarding"? When you dunk a person and lead them to believe you are going to drown them, but then stop short just before they die. Is that torture? Would you like to see it done to your mom? Hmm?


So am I pro-torture? Not a chance. Am I pro-"aggressive interrogation"? Yep.


Are you lacking basic morals? No. Are you just "light on morals"? Yes.


And am I smart enough and honest enough to tell the difference? You bet.

What about you folks?


Torture is torture. If you say it's okay to torture someone who has not been accused of a crime, you are promoting torture. It's simple. No degrees of torture, it's simply torture of a potentially innocent person.



Edit: Read a little further; little more to say. I keep reading about the "moral high-ground," but I can't think of a time when America has claimed to take the moral high-ground. I can think of instances when non-Americans have claimed that we make that claim, and I can think of instances (like here) when people who want to make a point claim that America claims the moral high ground. But, I can't think of when America actually claims it. Not being facetious; help out if you can.


LMAO! The US invaded Iraq to overthrow a leader who they claimed was a horrible horrible man, and to install their own puppet government under the guise of "promoting freedom". How is that NOT the ultimate in moral high-ground arrogance?

How about a good Bush quote: ""We fight, not to impose our will, but to defend ourselves and extend the blessings of freedom." "

Does the desire to bring freedom to people automatically allow you to smash cities with giant bombs, knowing full well that it will cause civilian casualties? Allow you to torture and kill with impunity?

LOL! Does that not sound high-groundish to you too? Even delusional? You're advocating whose freedom? Yours? Iraq's? The freedom of people who are not SUSPECTED of terrorism? Because once you are suspected of it we will torture you as we see fit, right?


You people don’t know any better than me whether torture works. And neither does some armchair sociologist. Stop trying to back up your feelings (which are admirable in their humanitarian bent, and you are all great people for that) with either no evidence, or “evidence” from opinion columnists who have no idea what they are talking about and neither do their office-bound sources. Honestly folks, if all you have to back an assertion is an editorial, just don’t use anything at all but your own good thinking. That’s like me telling you that I know torture ALWAYS produces proper results, ‘cause I read it in Dave Barry, and he was backed up by a Gary Larson cartoon


Wasn't John McCain held and tortured as a PoW for some time? Wouldn't you lend more credence to his point of view since HE HAS BEEN TORTURED? So when he says it is ineffectual, he knows what he's talking about.

Torture does not work. It is not productive. It does not yield important, timely information. That is in the movies. This is reality.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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the question dat if u had Osama bin laden in yer hands and he knows where the nuke is in America and it would detonate in a few hours wat do u do? i understand many peoples feelings about torture and dat we may have the wrong guy but its war and terrorists dont wear the uniform. anihow wat do u do with Osama if he knows where the nuke is but aint answering and is gloating to see u sweat as the time goes down? how far do u "torture"? no water? no food? but dat be torture. and he probably refuse food and water and must be force feed which people would say is violating his rights.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:16 PM
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deltaboy:

the question dat if u had Osama bin laden in yer hands and he knows where the nuke is in America and it would detonate in a few hours wat do u do? i understand many peoples feelings about torture and dat we may have the wrong guy but its war and terrorists dont wear the uniform. anihow wat do u do with Osama if he knows where the nuke is but aint answering and is gloating to see u sweat as the time goes down? how far do u "torture"?


That's an imaginary situation that belongs on a show like "24", it's not reality. It's Hollywood. You can't base a world-wide policy on torturing people based on one incredibly far-fetched situation, it's insane.



"The CIA is holding an unknown number of prisoners in secret detention centers abroad. In violation of the Geneva Conventions, it has refused to register those detainees with the International Red Cross or to allow visits by its inspectors. Its prisoners have 'disappeared,' like the victims of some dictatorships." -- The Washington Post.


Why did you bother with trying to take down the Soviet Union when you yourselves are just becoming it a few decades later, I wonder?


jako



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by Jakomo

Why did you bother with trying to take down the Soviet Union when you yourselves are just becoming it a few decades later, I wonder?




really? Soviet Union?
America aint communists and we dont do religious oppression and so on. after all we have big businesses and stuff. not into torturing people because they Jews, Muslims, Christians, Gypsies, etc.

o yeah Jakomo, planes crashing into building sounds like it belongs to 24 right? remember Tom Clancy and his book the Debt of Honor. pretty interesting book. made in 1994 or 95 i believe.

[edit on 14-11-2005 by deltaboy]

[edit on 14-11-2005 by deltaboy]



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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deltaboy:

America aint communists and we dont do religious oppression and so on. after all we have big businesses and stuff. not into torturing people because they Jews, Muslims, Christians, Gypsies, etc.


You're not exactly a paragon of democracy with a President with 35% approval, huge amounts of corruption (indictments everywhere), a President who everyone with at least half a brain thinks is a lying sack of excrement, and a reputation as torturers and murderers of civilians, are you?

You are closer to the USSR in policies and the way the rest of the world sees you than you are to what you were seen as 10 years ago. That's fact, whether you agree with it or not...

Do you see Putin getting protested against EVERYWHERE he goes? Funny, eh, that Bush is the most hated man in the world. I guess we're all just idiots.





jako



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Jakomo

You're not exactly a paragon of democracy with a President with 35% approval, huge amounts of corruption (indictments everywhere), a President who everyone with at least half a brain thinks is a lying sack of excrement, and a reputation as torturers and murderers of civilians, are you?


everybody is a critic. u dink every president has 100 percent loving fans. if Al Qaeda targets u, u might be sayin wow people around the world hate us badly eh?



You are closer to the USSR in policies and the way the rest of the world sees you than you are to what you were seen as 10 years ago. That's fact, whether you agree with it or not...


u can compare all u want because u know u trying to put me on the defensive but dat aint gonna work. i remember a lot of people compare American to Nazi Germany. which one is it? Stalin or Hitler. lots of comparisons but aint gonna hold. Apples and Oranges.



Do you see Putin getting protested against EVERYWHERE he goes? Funny, eh, that Bush is the most hated man in the world. I guess we're all just idiots.


awww yes Putin the one fighting Chechnya right now. who is now closing down Russian press and only leaving the pro Putin press alone.

english.pravda.ru...

The United States ranks first on the number of people's negative opinions. Thirty-four percent of respondents said that they treated America negatively. Russia follows the USA with 25 percent. Great Britain takes the third place (18 percent), followed by Germany, Japan and France - 12, 13 and 14 percent of respondents expressed their negative attitude about these countries respectively. Italy and Canada evoke the smallest outburst of negative emotions - eleven and eight percent.

Thirty-one percent of respondents said that their attitude to Russia was rather positive. Forty percent sympathized with the USA and India. Canada is the winner again - 49 percent said that they liked the country.


wow the Canadians have some enemies i wonder why?
dink the polls just wrong? but then its just polls right? it dont represent everybody.



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