NEWS: UN Children's Fund To Vaccinate 800000 Pakistan Quake Hit Children

Dozens of teams of "Vaccinators" will be flown and driven to remote areas of Quake affected Pakistan to vaccinate hundreds and thousands of children under a United Nations Children's Fund program. The program will vaccinate against potentially deadly diseases such as measles and diphtheria and up to 800000 children under the age of 15 will be targetted. The survivors will also be given shots of Vitamin A "to strengthen children against respiratory diseases".



I don't see how a quake can raise the levels of measles significantly. It is not a disease caused by bad snaitation unlike other diseases that would be found in a disaster area.

I do wonder about the "Vitamin A" shots for everyone, I wonder if that is all it seems. Really I think this is a dangerous move and a suspicious one. It seems a good excuse to get in there and vaccinate more and more of the worlds population.

They are sprouting cases of diarrhoea in the region, but Measles and diarrhoea and in fact respiratory conditions don't have much if anything to do with those symptoms.



[edit on 13-11-2005 by Mayet]

[edit on 11/13/05 by FredT]

This is good news for these children in the hard hiot areas, but more relief is required otherwise the winter will take more people that the diseases they were vaccinated against would.

i don't trust immunizations, especially vaccinations of this size in third world countries.

The people have other diseases to worry about other than these ones. Bacterial infections, stomach viruses, malaria even the Bird Flu come much higher up the agenda than measles.

Plus measles is not a deadly disease. Children of my generation all caught measles with no issues, if i remember rightly even mumps and chicken pox caused more damge permanently like sterility in pubescent boys.

The money and the effort and the man power could certainly be spent on much more worthy programs for these survivors.



[edit on 13-11-2005 by Mayet]

Originally posted by Mayet
I don't see how a quake can raise the levels of measles significantly. It is not a disease caused by bad snaitation unlike other diseases that would be found in a disaster area.

I do wonder about the "Vitamin A" shots for everyone, I wonder if that is all it seems. Really I think this is a dangerous move and a suspicious one. It seems a good excuse to get in there and vaccinate more and more of the worlds population.

They are sprouting cases of diarrhoea in the region, but Measles and diarrhoea and in fact respiratory conditions don't have much if anything to do with those symptoms.

No offense, Mrs. Mayet, but the reason you are confused here is because you are apparently naturally distrustful of vaccination efforts, and to compound the issue, you don’t seem to apply the same enthusiasm you have for posting articles to researching the answers to your questions. I found the following in 10 minutes (all bold emphasis is mine):

Communicable disease control and epidemic management
Malnutrition, diarrhoeal diseases, measles, acute respiratory infections, and malaria consistently account for 60-95% of reported deaths among refugees and displaced populations. Preventing high mortality from communicable disease epidemics in displaced populations relies primarily on the prompt provision of adequate quantities of water, basic sanitation, community outreach, and effective case management of ill patients allied to essential drugs and public health surveillance to trigger early appropriate control measures. Proper management of diarrhoeal diseases with relatively simple, low technology measures can reduce case fatality to less than 1%, even in cholera epidemics.

Immunisation
Immunisation of children against measles is one of the most important (and cost effective) preventive measures in affected populations, particularly those housed in camps. Since infants as young as 6 months old often contract measles in refugee camp outbreaks and are at increased risk of dying because of impaired nutrition, [size=3.5]measles immunisation programmes (along with vitamin A supplements) are recommended in emergency settings for all children from the ages of 6 months to 5 years (some would recommend up to 12-14 years). Ideally, measles immunisation coverage in refugee camps should be greater than 80%. Immunisation programmes should eventually include all antigens recommended by WHO’s expanded programme on immunisation (EPI).

Medical Reserve Corps (Public Health After Disasters)

And this:

The disruption of food supplies and health services, the stresses on families and communities, population displacement, and the breakdown of water and sanitation systems all take a heavy toll on the health and nutrition of children. Many die of severe malnutrition, while others become unable to resist common childhood diseases and infections. Of the 10 countries with the world’s highest rates of under-five mortality, seven are affected by conflict or its aftermath.
Measles, diarrhoeal diseases and acute respiratory infection, combined with malnutrition, are the most common child killers in emergencies. Other deadly threats include malaria, cholera and epidemic dysentery/shigellosis, typhoid fever, meningitis and HIV/AIDS.

UNICEF: Health in Emergencies

And this:

Before measles vaccine became available, virtually all children contracted measles; an estimated 135 million cases with about 7-8 million deaths globally each year.

Public Health Agency of Canada: Travel Health Program

And finally, this:

Measles in developing countries has resulted in high attack rates
among children

hamburglar's right Mayet. Measles has changed - along with numerous other previously benign diseases. It was not deadly in the past, but it is now.

Go ahead, ask me to explain the changes in terms of molecular biology.



.

Originally posted by soficrow
hamburglar's right Mayet. Measles has changed - along with numerous other previously benign diseases. It was not deadly in the past, but it is now.

Go ahead, ask me to explain the changes in terms of molecular biology.

.

Uhhhh.....noooooooooo. And please don't ever put words in my mouth again. Your words leave a bad taste there.

FOR THE RECORD, I DID NOT SAY MEASLES HAS CHANGED AND IS NOW MORE DEADLY.

Measles has remained essentially unchanged, with some very minor exceptions, noted here:

There is only one antigenic type of measles virus. Although studies
have documented changes in the H glycoprotein, these changes do
not appear to be epidemiologically important (i.e., no change in
vaccine efficacy has been observed).

CDC: Measles Pink Sheet

It's the same old bug. It has ALWAYS been a killer. It has ALWAYS been worse in impoverished, malnourished, children who live in poor, unsanitary conditions. It is always easier on developed nations. Vaccines do the job on it.

Originally posted by soficrowGo ahead, ask me to explain the changes in terms of molecular biology.

You don't have a degree in molecular biology soficrow (or molecular chemistry, or biochemistry, or biology, or immunology, or mycotoxicology, or anything else useful to this discussion), so I don't think I will ask you. You don't know. The only thing you have to offer me is a half-baked prion theory that you've tried to attach to more things than a starving mosquito in a summer camp.

Please don't explain it at all. I can guess…Prions make the measles worse and now we’re all gonna get it (or we already have it from our vaccines) and we’re all gonna stop functioning at 40 from debilitating, wasting, chronic disease? Does that about sum it up? Thanks for coming out soficrow. You did a fantastic job.

Hamburglar I still tend to disagree with you about measles and especially the MMR vaccine. There are two sides to every story and in this case the other side weighs heavily into the argument.

You quoted figures of deaths at me but you didn't put in there what componant of those deaths was from actual measles. No one can and they don't because its a big scare mongering campaign.

You are sprouting official documents from the same people who supply and call for these vaccines.

I think the quote below sums it up

Since infants as young as 6 months old often contract measles in refugee camp outbreaks and are at increased risk of dying because of impaired nutrition,

the key point is malnutrition kills these children, not the measles. So my answer is to fix the malnutrition in these camps instead of injecting them with vaccines by the dozen. Everything you sprouted said the death rate was because of other underlying causes. So fix the underlying causes already.

You say you found all those documents in ten minutes. Thats all well and good. Ten minutes does not a decision make. I have now found in ten minutes the same amount if not more Against the MMR vaccine.

But the key is research and personal experience. Because in this case there are just as many arguments against the vaccines which you failed to put forward in your reply.

There is an increasing amount of research being conducted into the possible link between autism and vaccination. Along with many other groups throughout the world, the Autism Research Unit at the University of Sunderland is committed to examining the nature of this association through scientific research. Due to the nature of the work conducted at the Unit and the strong contact established with parents of people with autism, we at the Unit, have become increasingly aware of an increased incidence of parents claiming that their child's autism was the result of, or compounded by, vaccination. Many times each week, we are contacted by parents who talk about the effect they saw when their child was vaccinated, often describing harrowing scenes of extremely rapid regression, from perfectly ordinary children to children who exhibit very severe behavioural and physiological problems.

66.70.140.217...
1. They claim the vaccines are safe, but physicians are indoctrinated to disbelieve claims of harm and are not trained to recognize nor required to report any adverse reactions. From 90% to 99% of the adverse reactions reported to doctors are never reported by those doctors to the government’s extremely lax Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, known as the VAERS.

They say that the suspected linkage between the MMR vaccination and autism has been disproved by a study conducted by Brent Taylor and his colleagues in London, and published last year in The Lancet. The Taylor study is seriously flawed in many ways, as had been noted in a number of letters to the editor of The Lancet and in a number of additional letters on the subject which have been posted on the internet. It was subject to strong attack at a recent meeting of the British Statistical Society. I have been a full-time researcher my entire professional life, for almost 50 years, and I respectfully asked Dr. Taylor for a copy of the data so that I could reanalyze them. He refused this ordinary professional courtesy, and I have subsequently written to the editor of The Lancet requesting that an impartial committee be asked to reexamine Dr. Taylor’s statistical methods. If he refuses again, I urged The Lancet to retract his paper.

inquirer.gn.apc.org...
New research indicates that there might have been a very different story behind this campaign: Doctor Richard Nicholson, the editor of the Bulletin of Medical Ethics stated ,after studying all government reports, that there was no proof that such a major measles epidemic was about to start - and that: "there was no justification for the concomitant rubella immunisation" as the risk from rubella was minimal to all but pregnant women. The official statistics stated that 99% of teenage girls over 14 years of age were at that time immune from rubella and were not at risk.
He alleged the government's estimate of up to 50 deaths was based on "improper use of statistics and out of date death rates was based on out of date statistics." - that effectively the government was scare-mongering.

NimNih Gov
In a 19 month old girl and a 10 month old girl the Guillain-Barre syndrome developed within a week after they received, respectively, live measles-rubella vaccine and live measles vaccine. The older child was immune to the rubella at the time of vaccination, but both girls demonstrated a primary measles antibody response. Serum obtained during the acute and convalescent stages from the younger child was tested for antibodies against the herpes viruses (herpes simplex, Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus and varicella-zoster) and found to be negative.

Vaccnes
www.vaccinationdebate.com...
www.all-creatures.org...
chetday.com...
www.nccn.net...
MMR VACCINE
Mumps outbreak in highly vaccinated school
webpages.netlink.co.nz...
The fraudulent epidemic www.gn.apc.org...
Crohns Disease research webpages.netlink.co.nz...
MMR news report webpages.netlink.co.nz...
Dawbarns solicitors fact sheet (menu on left)
www.rmplc.co.uk...
Diabetes following MMR shot www.909shot.com...

Measles experience
www.i-wayco.com...
Measles by Neust’
www.healthy.net...
Measles www.netlink.co.nz...
Measles (chiro) www.4icpa.org...
Measles vaccine facts
ubmail.ubalt.edu...
Rubella vaccine facts
ubmail.ubalt.edu...
Mumps vaccine facts ubmail.ubalt.edu...
Gambling with Rubella vaccine
www.gn.apc.org...

MMR & AUTISM
webpages.netlink.co.nz...
Dawbarns fact sheet (look on left menu)
www.rmplc.co.uk...
www.healing-arts.org...

There is mountain loads of other evidence against the use of these vaccines but most people like yourself believe the official lines. They Believe it because the government is saying it, then it must be true.

Or maybe they believe it because, in some cases, they wrote the information-call-center scripts on the vaccines and their effects for the CDC.

You don't believe it because you are anti-vaccine in general. There are two sides. Yours is just wrong.

And yes, I gave you quotes, but I also gave you sources. Almost none gave death figures. Instead, they said that MEASLES IS ONE OF THE PRIMARY KILLERS OF CHILDREN IN CATASTROPHIC SITUATIONS, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS LACK OF SANITATION AND MALNUTRITION (hence the NEED for the Vitamin A boosters). Malnutrition is NOT the primary killer, it’s Measles.

Ignore it if you like, but be honest about why you are doing it. It has nothing to do with the mortality of Measles. It has everything to do with your raging paranoia against vaccinations.

You have shown us that you CLEARLY have an anti-vaccination stance. No amount of evidence will convince you of the need. So, keep calling for the deaths of more children via inactivity through your pseudo-science and quasi-medical quackery, and I'll keep calling you out on it (and your partner in disinformation crime, soficrow). Meanwhile, I won't be hiding in a cave afraid of that shiny thing in the sky.

And no, your point was not about malnutrition, or else you wouldn't have included Bird Flu.

And of course I believe the CDC over you. Who are you? The CDC is full of doctors and research scientists who spent YEARS training in their fields to become the best at what they do. Same with UNICEF, same with every other source I used. It has nothing to do with Government for me. What have you got? A basic understanding of vaccination principles, at best? You, are not a doctor, and never will be. If I want car advice, I go to the mechanic, not the stockbroker who can only change his own oil.

All you actually have is a bunch of Web sites that raise arguments that have been shown time and again to hold no water. And I especially love your "mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated school" one. Given the following, it is no surprise:

There was a similar outbreak of measles in a school in Anchorage, Alaska with 2186 students.

At the high school where the 17 cases occurred, based on school records, only one of 2186 students had not received at least one dose of MCV before the outbreak; 1057 (49%) had received one dose of MCV, and 1112 (51%) had received two or more doses. Estimated vaccine efficacy for two or more doses of MCV was 100%.

www.cdc.gov...

According to CDC, a SINGLE dose has 95% efficacy. Two are recommended. Do the math. 5% of 1057 students who only had one dose is about 53. But, instead of 53 sick kids, we had 17. That speaks volumes for the benefits of the vaccine.

Interestingly enough, some of your links (like the one about the about mumps outbreak) don’t go anywhere. Even more interesting is that I found a link to what is likely exactly the outbreak you’re talking about. At the end it said…

A second dose of mumps vaccine, as recommended using measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, could potentially prevent similar outbreaks in secondary school populations in the future.

www.ias.org.nz...

In short, even your own examples don’t support you. I know I won’t convince you. You’ve decided already, and you are firm. But, you are wrong.

Thanks for coming out Mrs. Mayet. You were great...

Insult me all you wish. Condescend to me all you wish. The evidence against the use of vaccines is just as strong as the for argument.

lets get down to it. You have been so insulting of my knowledge so I guess you know all. That's fine by me


My eldest daughter was diagnosed with vitilago, an immune system disease a few months after her MMR shots. After her MMR shot she was very very sick with visible reaction to the shot. One week after her shot everytime she fell ovr and skinned her knees and even where her underpants rubbed her hips, her skin grew back with no pigment at all. Geez took the doctors a lot of work narrowing it down until they conceded that the MMR shot was the only thing that was different at the time and it was probably that

Ok co -incidence, maybe, that was only one child. hell I got another five we can play with here.

My second daughter is autistic. It wasn't until after her MMR vaccine that I was told that she shouldn't have had it. It wasn't until after her MMR shot that she displayed symptoms of the form of Autism she has.

My first son was hospitalized with his reaction to his MMR, it stretched from his elbow up his arm, down his back and chest, a raised angry hot red lump. The doctor ummed and ahhed and told me that it seemed a reaction to his shot but they didn't like that so it was recorded as a dirty needle, imagine that my doctor gave my son a dirty needle, mind you he had two shots at the time, his diphptheria shot arm was fine, only the MMR had the reaction.

My third daughter was made to wait until she was five after her sisters reactions before having hers to ensure her body could take it. She reacted but not as bad as the previous siblings the doctors were so proud of that one and grinned at me and told me how it was so much better that we had waited.

My second son also reacted badly, he had the same reaction from his elbow up his arm down his back and chest, cept his stretched up his neck and onto his face. One hot red mass lump. The doctors marked this as a response
A week after his shot whenever he fell over and skinned his knee his body healed with no pigment in those place. An Immune system response.
But hey wait there's more, I have a baby she is 16 months old, lets count, yup that's 8 weeks away from her MMR shot.

Now you were so clever to insult me all this while and insult my knowledge which is fine I mean doctors are never wrong, especially when they are being pushed by drug companies and governments aren't they. But what you failed to take into account is that my children ARE immunized, I started off in this issue believing not unlike you. Doctors are always right, and heck my government is never wrong. I came out of this issue SEEING different, yes that is evidence in front of my eyes, weighed up and examined and proved with further evidence.

So how about you come see for yourself when my little baby girl goes to get her shot. How about you nurse her better and cry the millions of tears if something does go wrong.

Mr hamburglar, so addressed as you are so good as putting your insults behind sweetly veiled addresses....You see one side of a two sided debate. You are sprouting paper documents at me but you really are the one who do not have a clue, you know why? Its called personal experience, something I value to make my judgements on any issue. Not once not twice not three time not even four but five times.

You have sat there and attacked me with paper, you have accused me of being wrong. So I bow down to your superior knowledge on this issue. I bow down to the quick reading and the links you have sprouted supporting your arguement. I bow down to your knowledge that there is two sides to this debate and yet you don't see the other yourself. I just bow down because you Mr Hambuglar know everything.

But hey you never never know kind sir, just maybe, juuuuust maybe, they were all given dirty needles, ..eh that's it..the answer that I'm sure you have.....

Now if you excuse me, I have nothing more to add, I showed you the other side of the coin, you know.... the dull side that has been lying in the dirt so long that noone wants to look at it. I have recounted from a 1st instance witness account from someone who did not go into this debate with any preconceived ideas beforehand, see I was bought up to be a moralistic christian girl who did what the doctor and government told her. I have made my point. I have said my piece however little you may like to digest it.

I am not going to argue and further denigrate this thread more than it has already. I will leave you to your paper beliefs while I nurse my children through their upheavels in life and I will continue to be saddened when I look at my daughters beautiful skin marred by this vaccine and I will continue to care for my disabled daughter and I will continue to speak out from the stance of someone who does know about the dangers of vaccination personally, even if you Mr Hambuglar in your infinite wisdom and worldly knowledge know more.

But I left the icing till last.... my eldest daughter got real sick with spots about ten years ago now... I took her to the doctors and guess what.... she had the measles....

Originally posted by Mayet
Insult me all you wish. Condescend to me all you wish. The evidence against the use of vaccines is just as strong as the for argument.

I didn’t insult you. I said you were wrong. There’s a difference. And no, the evidence against is not just as strong as the evidence for. You can be as indignant as you like, you can be as offended as you want. That won’t change sound scientific research.

Originally posted by Mayet
My eldest daughter was diagnosed with vitilago, an immune system disease a few months after her MMR shots. After her MMR shot she was very very sick with visible reaction to the shot.

Oh wow…Now we have the crux of the issue. This whole time I’ve said you were just vehemently opposed to vaccination. You haven’t denied it. Instead, you tried misdirection. But now, the truth is out. Had I known you had such a trump card up your sleeve as this, I never would have…wait, yes I would.

Why? Because anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. I’m real sorry to hear that your kids are not well or were not well, but, thankfully for the rest of the world, your bad experience doesn’t get to dictate what happens for the rest of us.

Do you really think I’m going to start sobbing and change my mind just because you’ve had a hard go of it? Ridiculous. If anything, you make my point for me. You prove why you are not willing to let reason and sanity guide your judgment. Because for you, it’s personal.

Originally posted by Mayet
Ok co -incidence, maybe, that was only one child. hell I got another five we can play with here.

Why bother, after the first one, your mind was made up. And again, your stories, while tragic aren’t evidence of anything other than your bad luck. Your family, statistically speaking, is like finding a needle in a haystack…no…like finding a specific needle is the world’s largest stack of needles.

And then you, who actually, magically finds the needle, start telling the world that statistics don’t mean anything because you happen to be that 1 in 234,654,987,654,321,654,321,657,375,954,156 person. Ridiculous.

Here’s an anecdote for you. There was a guy. He bought a lotto ticket. Lo and behold, even though his chances of winning were worse than his chances of getting struck by lightning, he did win!! HOORAY FOR THE GUY!! But wait, it gets weirder. All across the state, other people won too. In fact, our guy had to split his jackpot with five other people.

Get the point? The larger the population, the greater the certainty that there will be anomalous activity. And guess what, you, unfortunately won the Irish Sweepstakes.

Oh, and yes, it probably was coincidence. Your son could have been bitten by a bullet ant, stung by a bee, exposed to any number of bacteria, but you, Mrs. Mayet, were already convinced that the MMR shot was going to give him problems. In fact, I wonder if your son had a psychosomatic reaction brought on by an intense fear of the MMR shot. I wonder who could have given him such a complex…

Originally posted by Mayet
My second daughter is autistic. It wasn't until after her MMR vaccine that I was told that she shouldn't have had it. It wasn't until after her MMR shot that she displayed symptoms of the form of Autism she has.

Ohhhh….So then it MUST be the shot. Why didn’t you bring this powerful information to light sooner?!? Good God, woman, you could have saved the entire world from this heartache! Do you know how many deaths/major illnesses per year you might have prevented if you had just gotten the word out?

What, like 8, worldwide? Meanwhile, once you’ve warned the world off MMR, you have this:

Measles infects 30 to 40 million children each year and kills over 500,000, often from complications related to pneumonia, diarrhoea and malnutrition. Many that survive are left with life-long disabilities: blindness, deafness or brain damage.

www.unicef.org...

But, I’m sure that after they hear your story, those 500,000 kids would way rather DIE than take a 1 in 23,654,065,406,467,650,670,654,654,034, chance that they might get Autism or…VITILIGO!!!!!

And again, SERIOUSLY? Vitiligo? That’s your evidence? Vitiligo can be genetically determined, which I’m sure you know. And the fact that two of your kids have presented with Vitiligo-like symptoms is equally telling, wouldn’t you say.

Oh wait, you wouldn’t say. You’d be too busy blaming a vaccine.

Originally posted by Mayet
Now you were so clever to insult me all this while and insult my knowledge which is fine

Oh cry me a river…If you want to post on a forum and give garbage Web sites and your own prejudice as evidence, prepare to be disputed. And, from this response and others you’ve made, I’m beginning to see that you just have a hard time being told you’re wrong. Maybe it’s low self esteem, but just because I disagree doesn’t mean I’m insulting you.

Originally posted by Mayet
I mean doctors are never wrong, especially when they are being pushed by drug companies and governments aren't they.

Nice try, but I didn’t say just doctors, or just the Government. I gave you info from four different groups of doctors. GROUPS. As in more than 1 or 2. LOTS. We all know doctors and our government can be wrong. I’m talking about hundreds, maybe thousands, of researchers and doctors who have been working on this issue since before the MMR shot was even developed. You really think that they are ALL wrong? Do you really think that when study after study shows one thing, and your anecdotal evidence and the occasional study out of left field shows something else, we should ignore the OVERWHELMING burden of evidence in favor of your story? Ridiculous.

Originally posted by Mayet
But what you failed to take into account is that my children ARE immunized

So what? I bet they only had round one, after the experiences you’ve described.

Originally posted by Mayet
So how about you come see for yourself when my little baby girl goes to get her shot. How about you nurse her better and cry the millions of tears if something does go wrong.

How about I don’t? How about you wait, just like you doctor suggested? How about you go see a different doctor? Seriously, I hope it all goes well, but your Appeal to Pity is not going to work on me.

Originally posted by Mayet
Mr hamburglar, so addressed as you are so good as putting your insults

Uhh… I guess you just forgot why I call you Mrs. Mayet. Here’s a refresher…Insults, indeed…

Originally posted by Mayet
and it is Mrs Mayet to you.

Oddly enough, that bit of backlash came when I pointed out a scientific inconsistency in something else you wrote. Hmm…Anger management issues much?

Originally posted by Mayet
You see one side of a two sided debate. You are sprouting paper documents at me but you really are the one who do not have a clue, you know why? Its called personal experience, something I value to make my judgements on any issue. Not once not twice not three time not even four but five times.

It’s called bad luck, and fear. And don’t tell me I have no personal experiences; you don’t know me.

Originally posted by Mayet
You have sat there and attacked me with paper, you have accused me of being wrong. So I bow down to your superior knowledge on this issue.

No I haven’t attacked you. Learn to separate your argument from your ego, but in the meantime, go ahead and bow down. Just don’t bow down to me. It’s not my superior knowledge. It’s the superior knowledge of hundreds/thousands of well-trained scientists, doctors, nurses, PAs, molecular biologists, etc. Bow down to their knowledge.

Originally posted by Mayet
But hey you never never know kind sir, just maybe, juuuuust maybe, they were all given dirty needles, ..eh that's it..the answer that I'm sure you have.....

Could be. I wasn’t there. I don’t know.

Originally posted by Mayet
Now if you excuse me, I have nothing more to add, I showed you the other side of the coin, you know.... the dull side that has been lying in the dirt so long that noone wants to look at it.

That’s because it’s wrong.

Originally posted by Mayet
I am not going to argue and further denigrate this thread more than it has already.

Again with the appeal to emotion. The whole point of these threads is to argue/discuss. Please spare me the, “I’m not gonna stoop…” rhetorical device. I’m hip to it, and it’s trash.

Originally posted by Mayet
I will leave you to your paper beliefs while I nurse my children through their upheavels in life and I will continue to be saddened when I look at my daughters beautiful skin marred by this vaccine and I will continue to care for my disabled daughter and I will continue to speak out from the stance of someone who does know about the dangers of vaccination personally, even if you Mr Hambuglar in your infinite wisdom and worldly knowledge know more.

Can you please end this Lifetime-esque drivel? Are you really going again with the appeal to pity and the emotional smegma? Do you have a logic button you can switch on, because this is getting old?

You don’t know what caused Vitiligo in two of your daughters, you suspect. You don’t know what caused autism, you suspect. Interestingly enough, things like MMR Vaccines are NEVER blamed for things that have known causes. Instead, we try to assign them as a cause to coincidental occurrences. We look for order in chaos, when sadly there often isn’t any. So continue with your stance, Mrs. Mayet. Be my guest. You don’t need my permission.

Originally posted by Mayet
But I left the icing till last.... my eldest daughter got real sick with spots about ten years ago now... I took her to the doctors and guess what.... she had the measles....

Dun, dun, dun!!! Cue the powerful, mystery movie music! Jesus lady! You’re like the guy who takes a half cycle of his prescribed antibiotics, then wonders why his strep throat is back. I’d bet CASH MONEY that NONE of your kids has had the RECOMMENDED second dose of the MMR vaccine. And besides, it is 99% effective. You understand what that means, don’t you, Mrs. Mayet? That means if we inoculated the 6,446,131,400 people on the planet today, tomorrow, 64 million might still get Measles.

Use your head, Mrs. Mayet. Find a new doctor. Try to be objective. And please, look in the mirror and tell yourself you’re okay, none of this is a personal attack.

Finally, I too saved the icing ‘til last…my older sister and I, along with my wife, her brother, and my sister’s husband, have all had the MMR vaccine. We all got real sick about 3 years ago…we all went to the doctor…guess what?!?!?!?!

NONE OF US GOT MEASLES BECAUSE WE COMPLETED THE PROPER COURSE OF VACCINATION.

What does my anecdote prove, Mrs. Mayet?

I used to think shots were the best thing in the world.
I now shudder in horror about all the side effects and
such that I had no idea 'really' exhisted and how frequently
they happen.

If I had known then, what I know now, I highly doubt I
would have had all those shots for my daughter. We were
going overseas so she received extra shots for things -
Cholora, etc....

Now, I wish we hadn't done that.

Mayet - I hear ya'. I think there are more problems with the
shots given to our children then folks want to talk about. I also
wonder about your genetics. It sounds like there is something
in your family's makeup that doesn't take to shots very well.

The Vitamin A shots that the kids are getting overseas are
needed. So are the others. Many would die without them.
Fewer will die with them ... but yes some will get sick from them.

I wish they'd allow international adoption of the orphans.
We tried to adopt the war orphans from Kosovo a few years
back. Muslims don't like to give their children up for adoption
to non-muslim countries.

I REALLY wish they would. If we all could adopt it would help
with that country's crisis at the same time helping those
children to be adopted into stable, loving, nurturing homes
in a secure and well educated environment.

BTW - side note - MAYET ... God bless ya' and I hope that
everything works out for your children. My daughter has
asthma and hypogycimia. I understand what it means to
WORRY! (I doubt they are connected to the shots ... she
developed these when we moved into a high pollution
area of the country many years after she received her shots.)



[edit on 11/15/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Hamburglar
What does my anecdote prove, Mrs. Mayet?

umm how blind and ignorant and dismissive of anything that doesn't fit what you have been dished up ?

Your accusing a 18 month old baby of having a psychosomatic reaction to one out of two shots he had at the same time? Your accusing a team of specialists of lying? A two year old with an intense fear indeed, the only thing that worries him or any of my kids about shots is the colour of the jellybeans they get afterwards. They don't even cry.

and all that stuff about my parenting skills and what you "know" about my family and what I do... oh wow.. oh wow.... go get a clue...

You have no clue, no idea and no experience. ...

you say i am wrong.. but can you prove that? No you can't, your an armchair critic armed with google and not much else I am afraid.

All I see is your viscious personal insults of myself, my family, my doctors and my skills.

and the people who count around here know that if I am wrong, I am the first to admit it.

Nevermind about me addressing the rest of your dribble.... you have denigrated this thread enough...

You are now officially and proudly on ignore ... so you can blow your hot wind around as much as you wish and I for one do not have to be subjected to the rank air.

[edit on 15-11-2005 by Mayet]

Hamburglar, there is no need to be rude time and time again to Mayet because you dislike her viewpoint. It really doesn't help your arguement.

What she is putting forward, is a case that is still on going - something which many parents are worried about. The MMR vaccine and many other 'wonder drugs', are not tested as highly as is needed. Primarily they are done over a few years when symptoms can take years to develop and secondly they are a way for Government to make even more money.

In honesty, it would be better to give these children and adults food, water, beds, etc because these 'jabs' will do nothing to those who starve too death. The amount of time, money and effort that is being spent [in my opinion] is a waste and I doubt will save as many lives as you think they will. Also you have to ask yourself are the possible risks worth this?

and I still re-iterate the point i was making here. They are far better using the effort and energy to get food and resources in there to stop the malnutrition and to naturally strengthen these childrens bodies so they can fight illness

Originally posted by Odium
Hamburglar, there is no need to be rude time and time again to Mayet because you dislike her viewpoint. It really doesn't help your arguement.

My argument doesn't need help. And I wasn't rude to her. Incredulous? Doubting? Yes. Rude, no. That she can't handle a disagreement without considering it a personal attack is unfortunate, but not really my problem. And this is nothing new. Twice now I've used carefully vetted, RESPECTED sources to refute points she's made and instead of responding with anything worthwhile, she goes into an angry, emotional tirade. What else can I do? I'm not going to hold her hand and congratulate her for being wrong, and you shouldn't expect me to. And if it's rude to tell someone that you'll trust the scientists instead of the laypeople, then I guess I'm rude. Smart, but rude.

Originally posted by Odium
What she is putting forward, is a case that is still on going - something which many parents are worried about. The MMR vaccine and many other 'wonder drugs', are not tested as highly as is needed. Primarily they are done over a few years when symptoms can take years to develop and secondly they are a way for Government to make even more money.

Even if this is true, which it's not, you ignore the benefits in favor of the risks. That doesn't make sense when the OVERWHELMING majority of the evidence points to extremely minimal risks (most of which are inconclusively proved at best) and major benefits (such as saving millions of lives around the world). That's not alright with me, and I'm allowed to say so.

Originally posted by OdiumIn honesty, it would be better to give these children and adults food, water, beds, etc because these 'jabs' will do nothing to those who starve too death. The amount of time, money and effort that is being spent [in my opinion] is a waste and I doubt will save as many lives as you think they will. Also you have to ask yourself are the possible risks worth this?

First, do you really believe that aid is only distributed in the form of vaccines? OF COURSE THESE PEOPLE ARE GETTING FOOD, WATER, ETC. The vaccines are a secondary issue. That money has been specifically set aside to provide vaccination and Vitamin A in addition to other aid and succor.

Second, these "jabs" will save lives. Period.

The risks are so minimal as to be almost negligible. Lets say they vaccinate the 800,000 kids they plan to. And let's say CDC and UNICEF aren't lying about Measles being one of the #1 killers of children in these situations. Look at this, and decide if you think the "risks" are worth the reward:

www.medinfo.co.uk...

And BTW, it's not as if I just "think" it will save many lives. This is UNICEF and CDC's recommended course of action.

Call me full of hot air (much ruder, BTW than anything I said) if you will, but I don't make up the facts.

And for the record, I wasn't kidding when I said that I wrote scripts for CDC's Vaccination Information Hotline (800-CDC-INFO). It's not as if I pulled this stuff from thin air. Call 'em. Ask 'em what you wanna know. They'll tell you. It's not a big secret. The big secret is, if vaccinations are so bad (like MMR, for instance) where are all the dead people? Why did the he National Association for Colitis and Crohn's look at the evidence and still support the two dose MMR program? Why haven't we heard about massive disease from it?

And before you say it's because some powerful conglomerate of drug companies, scientists, doctors, media interests, and governments have colluded to sweep it under the rug, ask yourself the following: How many cases of drug recalls, drug lawsuits, malpractice suits, and side-effect news story examples can you think of off the top of your head? No google allowed. I'm willing to bet it's lots. That suggests that there is no cover up (why cover up one and not the tons of others?).

Originally posted by Mayet
and I still re-iterate the point i was making here. They are far better using the effort and energy to get food and resources in there to stop the malnutrition and to naturally strengthen these childrens bodies so they can fight illness

And I'll reiterate the point that you're wrong. The money and manpower is fine right where it is. There is plenty of other funding going to energy, food, resources, etc., for basic needs and sanitation.

Seriously, "strengthen these childrens bodies so they can fight illness"?

That's ridiculous. I wrote a play. It's called UNICEF SAYS FORGET THE VACCINES, LET'S LET THEM FIGHT DISEASE NATURALLY

It goes like this:

ACT I

Somewhere at the edge of the Pakistan Quake disaster area

UNICEF GUY 1: Hey, look at those kids in the disaster area. Let's vaccinate them against measles and give them Vitamin A shots as per standard recommendations.

UNICEF GUY 2: [SMACK!]

UNICEF GUY 1: Why’d you smack me?

UNICEF GUY 2: What kind of fool are you, man? Here, give them this broccoli and they can fight Measles the natural way.

UNICEF GUY 1: You’re right, how could I have been so stupid?

ACT II

Surrounded by dying, measles infected children

UNICEF GUY 1:Why are they all dying? Why didn’t the nutritional food work on it’s own? I thought for sure the broccoli would do the trick. I mean, I know it defies all scientific and medical research to think that just a nutritional diet will prevent Measles, especially in the short term in a disaster area, but dammit man, it should have worked anyway.

UNICEF GUY 2: Errrrr…..Ummm……Hey! Is that a penny on the ground? Lucky day!

UNICEF GUY 1:Hey wait, who are you? You don’t work for UNICEF! You’re not even a doctor? Why did I let you convince me to forgo the vaccinations?

UNICEF GUY 2: [removes UNICEF mask to reveal…]

UNICEF GUY 1:Mrs. MAYET!!!! I should have guessed!! But why?

Mrs. Mayet: Admit it UNICEF GUY 1, all these dying children are much better off than if they had been the MMR Vaccine. THINK OF THE RISKS! It's so much better to let them fight disease naturally.

UNICEF GUY 1: WHY GOD?!? WHY!?!

curtain falls

THE END


Go ahead and ignore me, and while you're at it, keep on ignoring all the medical evidence against your pet theory.

Great plan!

Just for the record, I'm with Hamburglar on this one. I'm getting tremendously tired of the people who decide to turn positive efforts into malicious intents simply because they want to blame the natural events in life they can't control on somebody else they have the extreme outside chance of controlling.

It seems there is a psychosis or neurosis - whichever it turns out to be - amongst fundamentalist conspiracy extremists that forces them to blame virtually everything on somebody else because it then gives them the false sense of importance (read control) that if it is a person or group of people, they might be able to uncover it, or raise a protest, or wtf-ever they think they're going to do...that's far more comfortable than accepting that there are natural events, diseases, conditions in life that we have to struggle against and oft time find that struggle almost impossible to win.

Man against man is a far more attractive bug-zapper than man against nature. Fly little moth, fly!

But it's not always going the path of denying ignorance. Just look at this thread. We've got a handful of people arguing that vaccinating children is a bad thing. You've obviously ran out of something important to worry about, I'm supposing.

The world can do two things at one time. It's not like the people with the needles are the same people with the food and they toss a bag of rice in the trash to give a shot, for Pete's sake. Hamburglar is dead on when he says the whole premise of this stems from certain individuals' distrust at a system. Well, good for you - distrust away. Rail against the evil machine and refuse to have your children protected. And when a measles outbreak takes 3, 4 or 6 of your kids I'm sure we'll hear a whole new bent on how somebody else was to blame. Because - blam-dammit - you gotta blame somebody don't you?

I just saw some one in this thread state in chat that they were going to request this thread be shut down because it was getting ugly. My question is did the ugliness begin when some one disagreed with you? or when you sunk so low as to rail against people trying to do good?

ATSNN - we report, you decide.

Dear mr Hamburglar....

lets see where do I start...well when I was little I had wonderfully clear skin, I also would have today if not for that have a very good paying modeling job...and fully working self esteem...but no, in stead I have to have white patches on my knees and hips...and a major insecurity issue from children teasing me while growing up all because of a reaction the the MMR, and if thats not enough...when I was around seven I still got them.

I have been told by doctors that the patches that began a week after I was given the Vaccines caused the breaks outs. There is no family history of patchy skin, and don't you think if the doctors would have lied to me when they said "we don't recomend any futher vaccines until we know whats going on" then the case would be that I do have Vitilago and would continue to break out instead of having stopped with the patches I recieved when I broke out?

as for your attack on my mothers handling of these news, fair enough that you have an opinion, but its clear that well my mother has hers, I find it really immature and anoying how some people act when their opinions doesn't seem to take on the other, people have opinions and morals for a reason, and thats to be strong to them....take a chill pill dude...not everyone one in this crazy a$$ world will appear normal to you, and not everyone will rush out to chance a lifetime of opinions to suit yours.

as for my mothers parenting skills...HOW DARE YOU! you don't know my mother!

Hamburglar, there is no need to be rude time and time again to Mayet because you dislike her viewpoint. It really doesn't help your arguement.

What she is putting forward, is a case that is still on going - something which many parents are worried about. The MMR vaccine and many other 'wonder drugs', are not tested as highly as is needed. Primarily they are done over a few years when symptoms can take years to develop and secondly they are a way for Government to make even more money.

In honesty, it would be better to give these children and adults food, water, beds, etc because these 'jabs' will do nothing to those who starve too death. The amount of time, money and effort that is being spent [in my opinion] is a waste and I doubt will save as many lives as you think they will. Also you have to ask yourself are the possible risks worth this?

well said, couldn't have put it better myself, I'm sure these children have lost everything, the better thing to do would be using that moneys giving them food, shelter, clothing, education etc.

Valhall, you seem also to have missed my point completely.

As for pulling the thread I said I as near ready to ask and I was. I get told all the time off the mods not to get personal and not to start bickering as this thread has become and to take it to pm. hell, I will stay and argue all day about this point but it doesn't look good for atsnn, perhaps you also heard me say that in chat while you were eavesdropping.

i used the example of my children only to show why I know the mmr vaccine can cause problems. I am not the only one. Not enough research has been done.

My children are fully vaccinated, yeah shows doesn't it how im jumping on a political scare, oh no the vaccines going to get me. The only reason i speak out is because I have seen not just in my children, but many other children the dangers this one vaccine can produce. Oh and I am so anti vaccines, that I am about to undergo vaccination for lyssavirus for when i start caring for native bats. And at the same time check my hep B titers from my previous hep b shots I went and got. and my baby's already booked in for her mmr and fourth diptptheria polio vaccines. So I don't think I am paranoid in any way.

Damn right I am suspicious..who benefits in the long run... the drug companies once again who produce this vaccine. Unless of course they donate the vaccine for free.

the vaccinations may work in the short term but in the long term the problem still exists, the actual cause of these children's deaths still exist. manutrition. Its so easy to go say hey lets vaccinate but it doesn't solve the problem. I guess it is easier than other long term programs that may benefit to protect thse children against diseases they cannot be vaccinated against..including malaria.








[edit on 15-11-2005 by Mayet]

www.geocities.com...

Ya'll do know that some vaccines are manufactgured using
aborted children, right? Just thought I'd throw that in ...
for those that don't know it.

Excerpt

To date, there are 5 vaccines that use aborted babies as part of
the manufacturing process: Rubella, as found in the M-M-R®II, the M-R-
Vax®II, the Meruvax®II, and the Biavax®II; Poliovax® inactivated vaccine
for Polio; Varivax® Varicella Virus Vaccine Live, for Chicken Pox; Imovax®
Rabies ID, Wistar Rabies Virus Strain PM-1503-3M Vaccine (and the rabies
immune globulin); and the newly recommended Havrix® Inactivated for Hepatitis A.

More info at the site -
www.geocities.com...

I'm not a medical doctor so I don't know the answer to this thought ...
You know how cows can get Mad Cow by eating food that has cow
body parts in it? I can't help but wonder if those cultures that are
grown with aborted babies as part of the process .... if that is akin
to those cows eating cow parts in the food.

Like I said .. I don't understand the medical aspects ... but I
wonder about it. Anyone have any answers to that?
I'm curious.


[edit on 11/15/2005 by FlyersFan]