I fear that the damage is already done beyond repair on both sides. I don’t support any violence and I demand conversation between civilizations.

I warned about this several times: why on earth you like to trigger the rage of 1 billion Muslims?... do you understand how much 1 billion is !! take 1% extremists and you get 10 Million fanatics… have you got the picture now?.

When I said "trigger" I had a deep meaning; those pictures are only a trigger….. in the Islamic masses there is a cumulative feeling of humiliation through out 100 years of aggression against Muslims and against their religion.... the cumulative damage is becoming harder to repair .
Sadly the damage was accumulated more in recent years.. in the last 16 years many wars happened and almost every war of them was against an Islamic country. Muslims were running out patience , and the humiliation couldn’t be endured any more. I am not justifying the actions of extremists. I don’t justify any extremists from both sides and I am against violence, but they found the red button .. they found the trigger

I feared more damage to come thats why I warned not to feed the fire but to stop it... European counties poured benzene on fire..... and they found the red button .. the trigger....

The gun was already loaded and they only pushed the trigger.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
I warned about this several times: why on earth you like to trigger the rage of 1 billion Muslims?... do you understand how much 1 billion is !! take 1% extremists and you get 10 Million fanatics… have you got the picture now?.

When I said "trigger" I had a deep meaning; those pictures are only a trigger….. in the Islamic masses there is a cumulative feeling of humiliation through out 100 years of aggression against Muslims and against their religion.... the cumulative damage is becoming harder to repair .

The Europeans have had their share of humiliation by the muslim world for hundreds of years and now it's their turn to rule and the muslims don't like it. They don't like the fact the the slaves are now the masters and I think that's what's made them angry, not the cartoons.

You talk about the pulling the trigger of muslim anger but the muslim world should really think about the trigger they are pulling. They already angered the most powerful nation in the world in 2001 and then continued attacks on other nations since then.

Those attacks weren't enough to anger all of the western world against them but these actions over the cartoons are stimulating anger amongst people who didn't feel it before.

You can talk about a billion muslims but what will they do when they have to face two billion Christians?

[edit on 5-2-2006 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by Janus
Correct me if im wrong, but the Koran does not forbid the drawing of the Prophet mohammed does it?

I'm not sure... I think it's from the Hadith. But as a muslim, I can tell you that the cartoons in itself isn't what caused the big angry feeling. It's what the cartoon is implying, that Muhammad (PBUH) was a terrorist. At least that's what angers me.

Originally posted by Helmutt
Why do the protesters around the world still believe the lies originating from the Danish imams? The protesters are mislead and confused. They don´t know the truth and have not seen the 12 real cartoons. Now it is all spiraling out of control when in fact these imams should be on trial...

That could be it, the dis-info... But I'm inclined to believe it's a combination of

what the cartoons are implying + fake and misleading cartoons + the act of reprinting the original cartoons

That last factor, reprinting the cartoons, that's what I don't get. Why, oh why did they do that? Freedom of expression? The protesters are exercising that as well, but there has to be limits (imposed by common sense)

Limits like not reprinting those cartoons publically (if it's a private publication, whatever, go knock yourselves out). And no, they cannot NOT know what will happen, they've had since November to see what happened to the original publisher.

And limits like not torching an embassy. The protesters torching buildings have really gone out of line, reinforcing the already piss-poor image the West has on muslims.

Originally posted by Netchicken
The actions of muslim outrage only fuel the stereotypes of muslims in the western world, and reinforce the belief that its a religion of violence and repression.

Exactly.

So who is at fault? The Papers that reprinted them under the banner of Freedom of Expression, knowing full well it will anger muslims? The Imams who further fan the flames by spouting their rhetoric and spreading disinformation? The protesters who torched the embassies? The Western Media, for demonizing Islam and sensationalizing the bad apples? The Arab Media, for demonizing the West?

I say all of the above. There's no one single evil here. All of them are to be blamed. Really, there's no such thing as black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. It's all infinite shades of gray.

I'm glad I live in Malaysia, where we're tolerant of all cultures. Really, though, we should all stop pointing fingers at each other and start respecting each other.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
FactoryLad

Take this in your face:

I read your post, those actions were equally pathetic. I stand by my animals comment though.

Originally posted by AceOfBase
The Europeans have had their share of humiliation by the muslim world for hundreds of years and now it's their turn to rule and the muslims don't like don't like it. They don't like the fact the the slaves are now the masters and I think that's what's made them angry, not the cartoons.

You talk about the pulling the trigger of muslim anger but the muslim world should really think about the trigger they are pulling. They already angered the most powerful nation in the world in 2001 and then continued attacks on other nations since then.

Those attacks weren't enough to anger all of the western world against them but these actions over the cartoons are stimulating anger amongst people who didn't feel it before.

You can talk about a billion muslims but what will they do when they have to face two billion Christians?

AceOfBase

1)
If you want I can prove that during the Islamic Empire , Islam was very tolerant throughout the History, Unlike other Christian Empires. I can make detailed research to show and prove that to you, with historical sources and Data. I can put it in a separate thread if you want. It would take me 2 days of research. Do you want that?
2)
Although 9/11 was exposed several times in ATS, you still use it whenever you want to win a debate. Go and refresh your weak memory about 911 conspiracy.
3)
Do you like the idea of CLASH OF Civilizations? I think you are a big fan of it.


[edit on 5-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 5-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Originally posted by Beachcoma

So who is at fault? I say all of the above.

I disagree.

Feedom of expression is a western heritage and we must defend it against attacks from totalitarian societies. A democracy cannot survive long without freedom of expression. If the west does not stand in solidarity with the Danish, then the Islamization of the West will have begun in earnest. Then the forces that are trying to impose on the Free West a totalitarian ideology will have won


Futhermore, there are many ways to protest.

To orchester rage with fake cartoons is one of the bad options.

[edit on 5-2-2006 by Riwka]

Riwka,

I have said this before, and I will say it again. I am NOT against Freedom of Expression. I believe in it. But I also believe a little good judgement in exercising it goes a long long way.

As you have said, there are many ways to protest something. There are also many ways to support something. Peaceful demonstration with non-inflammatory banners/pickets is a good way. Burning flags/effigies, chanting death threats and torching embassies is not. It's freedom of expression, but it's at the bad end of the spectrum.

Likewise, publishing --no-- re-printing something that you know is inflammatory is not the best way to exercise that freedom of expression. There must have been a better way to show support.

The re-printing of those cartoons seem more like the latest in the series of attacks by the Western Media on Islam. That's how it appears to me, at least, and I believe that's how a lot of muslims perceive it as well.

There must've have been a better way. I'm sure of it.

But you are right about those fake reprints. I myself don't get it.

I have an idea, Deep Blue, if you would like to trade examples of Islamic "tolerance" toward Christianity and Judaism during its reign, its empire, including mass murder of the "dhimmis", the taxes paid, (jisya) if they wanted to live, the humiliation, and continued encroachment and spread of death that sparked the Crusades, I am all for it. Please, start a new thread in religion and then notify me of it, I'll be there.

There is no "all is at fault" aspect of this. That is a common way of trying to deflect blame, but it won't happen.
When one side wants to burn the entire world to the ground because of cartoons, yet is more than willing to spread such hate in regard to others, that doesn't mean there is a problem with the freedom of speech, it means that there is a problem with the attitude of one side in regard to that freedom. Simple, plain and clear.
It is obvious that stupid things will be said or displayed under the guise of that freedom, but when one side wants it to be exercised only their way, that is BS.

Originally posted by Beachcoma

The re-printing of those cartoons seem more like the latest in the series of attacks by the Western Media on Islam. That's how it appears to me, at least, and I believe that's how a lot of muslims perceive it as well.

I want to remind you: When BBC World were showing the fake picture of Muhammed with a pigs face (and said it was one of the real pictures), the picture was actually presented (on tv) by one of those muslims who tried to get sympathy against "the evil danes"... Who´s fault is it? Who is to blame? I mean Come on, is it ok for these Imams to lie and show even worse pictures of your prophet?

[edit on 2006/2/5 by Hellmutt]

Originally posted by Beachcoma


The re-printing of those cartoons seem more like the latest in the series of attacks by the Western Media on Islam.

Again, I disagree.

It is NOT AT ALL an attack to the Islam. It is just the opposite.

Freedom of expression is a western heritage and we must defend it or it will die from totalitarian attacks. It is also much needed in the Islamic world. By defending our values, we are teaching the Islamic world a valuable lesson, we are helping them by submitting their cherished traditions to Enlightenment values.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
There is no "all is at fault" aspect of this. That is a common way of trying to deflect blame, but it won't happen.

I am not trying to deflect the blame. Yes, the protesters who start getting violent, burning buildings and calling for deaths to the kafirs are beyond reproach. Yes, the fundamental Imams who spread dis-info to further enrage the sheeple should be flayed. Yes, boycotting Danish goods is a stupid move, coz it was that one particular newspaper that insulted our Prophet, so painting all of Denmark with one broad stroke is a dumb move (besides there are also muslims that work in Denmark, wouldn't the boycott hurt them too?). And yes, the Arab Media constantly painting the West as "The Great Satan" is another bad move.

But denying that the Western Media paints us muslims as a bad lot is wrong, too. Re-printing something with full knowledge of what negative reaction it will get is also questionable.

Why can't both sides see that they've wronged the other, in more ways than one?

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Riwka,

I have said this before, and I will say it again. I am NOT against Freedom of Expression. I believe in it. But I also believe a little good judgement in exercising it goes a long long way.

As you have said, there are many ways to protest something. There are also many ways to support something. Peaceful demonstration with non-inflammatory banners/pickets is a good way. Burning flags/effigies, chanting death threats and torching embassies is not. It's freedom of expression, but it's at the bad end of the spectrum.

Likewise, publishing --no-- re-printing something that you know is inflammatory is not the best way to exercise that freedom of expression. There must have been a better way to show support.

The re-printing of those cartoons seem more like the latest in the series of attacks by the Western Media on Islam. That's how it appears to me, at least, and I believe that's how a lot of muslims perceive it as well.

There must've have been a better way. I'm sure of it.

But you are right about those fake reprints. I myself don't get it.

ITS A FRIGGIN CARTOON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. DUH .

even you say - " The re-printing of those cartoons seem more like the latest in the series of attacks by the Western Media on Islam. That's how it appears to me " ---------

Let us not attack each other's intelligence. Spread love and harmony, please! Insult edited out by the administrator of Love and Harmony

the latest in a series of attacks on Islam ?????. ITS A CARTOON .

and attack from the islam side of it usually involves a suicide attack/murder
of innocent people. . ..

How many people did the Cartoon kill ? . Well actually - NONE . it cant its a
Cartoon.

So your saying a Cartoon is a Attack on Islam and that compares to ? Suicide attacks? / burning buildings ?.
you would think that somewhere in the Koran it would teach tolerance
after all isnt Islam a Loving relegion? . (i doubt it).



[edit on 5-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

[edit on 5-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by Riwka

Again, I disagree.

It is NOT AT ALL an attack to the Islam. It is just the opposite.

Freedom of expression is a western heritage and we must defend it or it will die from totalitarian attacks. It is also much needed in the Islamic world. By defending our values, we are teaching the Islamic world a valuable lesson, we are helping them by submitting their cherished traditions to Enlightenment values.

Maybe the intention was not to attack Islam. Fine, I give them the benefit of the doubt, but put yourself on the other shoe. Almost every other day you see your religion being demonized. Not to mention the "War on Terror" seems to target specifically muslims and muslim states(I do realize that a lot of the terrorist carry muslim names, but that's another story). And then you have yet another confrontation with a muslim state (Iran). Put all this together and add on top of it the cartoons implying your Prophet is a terrorist. What would you conclude?

That's all I'm saying, I'm sure that the average muslim would conclude that this is yet another attack on their faith.

And I agree, freedom of expression is a necessity in this day and age, but I must reiterate that it should be expressed responsibly and with good judgement, because we all know that people, as a whole, are quick to anger and split into factions.

Originally posted by Briggs
the latest in a series of attacks on Islam ?????. ITS A CARTOON .

and attack from the islam side of it usually involves a suicide attack/murder
of innocent people. . ..

How many people did the Cartoon kill ? . Well actually - NONE . it cant its a
Cartoon.

So your saying a Cartoon is a Attack on Islam and that compares to ? Suicide attacks? / burning buildings ?.
you would think that somewhere in the Koran it would teach tolerance
after all isnt Islam a Loving relegion? . (i doubt it).

I didn't say it compares. In fact if you read my other posts I condemn the burning of flags, effigies and buildings.

And let me say this about suicide bombers -- they're total nut jobs. Suicide is a straight ticket to hell, from what I was taught. So is attacking civillians.

Let me explain why I say it is perceived as an attack on Islam. In Islam, Muhammad (PBUH) is considered the holliest figure. Muhammad (PBUH) is seen as the role model of what a good muslim should be.

Now, the cartoons insult our greatest role-model, depicting him as a terrorist. How would you feel if your role-model was insulted? Pretty insulted yourself, no?

Having said that, I must stress again that I do not condone these violent reactions that have been commited of late in the name of Islam. I feel like my religion is being hijacked thoroughly.

Now, as for your question about the Quran, I must confess I am not that well-versed in it, but all my Ustadz and Ustadzah who have taught me about the religion have preached tolerance. In fact they don't even recommend I try to convert a non-muslim. Instead they ask that if I wish to do Dakhwah(preach), I should do it to other muslims, remind them of what is right and what is not.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of us moderates.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I have an idea, Deep Blue, if you would like to trade examples of Islamic "tolerance" toward Christianity and Judaism during its reign, its empire, including mass murder of the "dhimmis", the taxes paid, (jisya) if they wanted to live, the humiliation, and continued encroachment and spread of death that sparked the Crusades, I am all for it. Please, start a new thread in religion and then notify me of it, I'll be there.

There is no "all is at fault" aspect of this. That is a common way of trying to deflect blame, but it won't happen.

First, I don’t claim that anyone has clean hands , every Civilization has some blood in her hand. No one is perfect.

Second, I will do the research to show you that Muslims under the Islamic Empire were much more tolerant that others. I will put that in a separate thread. I will only do this to expose misinformation and lies about this issue , not for justification nor criticism towards any group. I want the truth even if it is against me. Lets go into debate about this , I will accept it if you prove that I am wrong. (give me some time , 3 days will be good).

Third , its not about "all is at fault" it is about Justice. There is a huge cumulative humiliation and unfairness towards Muslims in recent years. AceOfBase justified that simply by recalling history. Screw history I need Justice and I don’t care about history. What you tell Palestinians that are in refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan science 1948 , DO you want to tell them BLAME HISTORY .. Screw history we need our land back.

Originally posted by Beachcoma

Originally posted by Riwka

Again, I disagree.

It is NOT AT ALL an attack to the Islam. It is just the opposite.

Freedom of expression is a western heritage and we must defend it or it will die from totalitarian attacks. It is also much needed in the Islamic world. By defending our values, we are teaching the Islamic world a valuable lesson, we are helping them by submitting their cherished traditions to Enlightenment values.

Maybe the intention was not to attack Islam. Fine, I give them the benefit of the doubt, but put yourself on the other shoe. Almost every other day you see your religion being demonized. Not to mention the "War on Terror" seems to target specifically muslims and muslim states(I do realize that a lot of the terrorist carry muslim names, but that's another story). And then you have yet another confrontation with a muslim state (Iran). Put all this together and add on top of it the cartoons implying your Prophet is a terrorist. What would you conclude?

That's all I'm saying, I'm sure that the average muslim would conclude that this is yet another attack on their faith.

And I agree, freedom of expression is a necessity in this day and age, but I must reiterate that it should be expressed responsibly and with good judgement, because we all know that people, as a whole, are quick to anger and split into factions.

Freedom of Expression should be of Human heriatge, not just Western .
all people should have freedom of expression.
Think about it - whats wrong with Living/breathing/growing up in a world
where you can be whatever you want to be - and no its not easy -.

to be in any relegion you want to be in or you can even start your own relegion if you want .

You say your releion is being Demonized ?? . apparently you dont watch American News . Here in the good ol USA , Islam, Muslim , terrorist attacks are being touted as -- peace loving , good people , whos Mosk are somehow more holy than other releigous building / churches. And the people are just good/loving and only want peace and friendship with there neighbors . ( ??? ) .

But on the other hand Chritianity is under attack not only from Muslim fanatics, but also from anti christian groups in the USA .
-- NO more Christmas -- now its a winter break or some BS like that .
-- Take the word God off money/building/or any public places.
and the list goes on and on .
BUT last time i checked i didnt hear of any Chritchians burning building or suicide attacks .
So dont tell me about relegion being demonized , when mine is being systemactically erased.

as for prophets being a terrorist ?.
WELL YOU KNOW BETTER DONT YOU ?? . Ok, so whats the problem ?

ive seen pics of Jesus in all kinds of ways that make upset , but i dont run around burning buildings.

as for war on terror - something like more than 50 wars going on in the world right now - they all involve muslims trying to kill other people.
so they can take over .

And yes when Arab states Have like 70% of the worlds terrorist and they train them / feed them /give them money /shelter , what do you expect ?.

Just curious , " the War on Terror " - who should it target ??? .
last time i checked - it was the fanatical Muslims doing the killing .
So who should we target ??- -- the eskimoes ? how about the native american indians ?? .

As for Iran - why does Iran need Nuke power , when it has enough oil for like the next few hundred yrs .

And not to mention that they have threaten to use Nukes on Isreal/USA.
when they do have them .
But that can be debated .

I dont have any probs with Islam or any Relegion .
unless you go around killing people for no better reason than the fact they dont beleive in your relegion.. and when i say your/you - i dont mean you .
i mean in general .

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I have an idea, Deep Blue, if you would like to trade examples of Islamic "tolerance" toward Christianity and Judaism during its reign, its empire, including mass murder of the "dhimmis", the taxes paid, (jisya) if they wanted to live, the humiliation, and continued encroachment and spread of death that sparked the Crusades, I am all for it. Please, start a new thread in religion and then notify me of it, I'll be there.

There is no "all is at fault" aspect of this. That is a common way of trying to deflect blame, but it won't happen.

First, I don’t claim that anyone has clean hands , every Civilization has some blood in her hand. No one is perfect.

Second, I will do the research to show you that Muslims under the Islamic Empire were much more tolerant that others. I will put that in a separate thread. I will only do this to expose misinformation and lies about this issue , not for justification nor criticism towards any group. I want the truth even if it is against me. Lets go into debate about this , I will accept it if you prove that I am wrong. (give me some time , 3 days will be good).

Third , its not about "all is at fault" it is about Justice. There is a huge cumulative humiliation and unfairness towards Muslims in recent years. AceOfBase justified that simply by recalling history. Screw history I need Justice and I don’t care about history. What you tell Palestinians that are in refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan science 1948 , DO you want to tell them BLAME HISTORY .. Screw history we need our land back.

Were not talking about Clean Hands ........ get over it alrady . History is history . learn from it and leave it at that .

If the Fanactical Muslims wer to stop all the Suicide Attacks/murder .
Then what other problems would we have in the world . Besides the Obvious - Hunger , ect ect .

really ,, what dominates the World News? , Muslim fanatics killing/burning
ect . So why dont they stop the BS . . So we can focus on real problems .
Like world hunger and stuff like that .
Why ??. because basically muslim fanatics wont be happy untill everyone is muslim . . Muslim fanatics dont give a crap about anything except the fact your not a muslim and you either convert or Die .

And you people keep Citing history and trying to lay blame . get a effin grip alrdy . the past is the past . if you want a better future , in a free soceity theres nothing stopping you - and no its not easy -.

are you telling me the Arab states arent free and the Muslims are fighting for ??. And the Muslims that live in other countries are figthing for ??.

Most of them live in countries where they can ( have a job and work to have a better life for themselves and there familes . So what are they figthing for ? . Because of a stupid cartoon in a newspaper ?? .
its no wonder the fantacial muslims are stuck in the 7th century and will ultimately try to tear down the same soceity that has given them so many opportunities to live in a free soceity and better themselves.


[edit on 5-2-2006 by Briggs]

Ok, I got it now. They are attacking everything Danish because these imams (who insulted the prophet) come from Denmark...