It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

China does it again. More spying.

page: 1
0

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 10:59 AM
link   
business.guardian.co.uk...


The president enjoyed all the pomp and protocol that traditionally come with a state visit, reflecting the importance of the man, and the emerging superpower that he represents. But as China's Hu Jintao tucked into his filet de sole pompadour during the banquet at Buckingham Palace on Tuesday, and again as he flew back to Beijing yesterday after his three-day visit, Britain's security services were left pondering a more delicate issue: how many of the president's entourage had been left behind?

While on the diplomatic and commercial level relations between the two countries appear to be flourishing, with British ministers and businesses eager to cash in on China's booming economy, the security services are concerned about what is happening under the surface.
MI5 has become increasingly anxious about an increase in spying by the Chinese. Officials are unsure how widespread it is, and what impact it is having. The agency believes that "at least 20 foreign intelligence services are operating to some degree against UK interests", and say the Chinese and Russians concern them most.

The Chinese, security sources said yesterday, have become supreme opportunists, hoovering up information on the "grains of sand" principle: picking up the smallest pieces of information whether relating to business, industry or security and closely analysing them back home.

Justin King, managing director of C2i, a UK counter-espionage consultancy, said yesterday that businesses were all too aware of what is happening, particularly when they hire Chinese staff.


u can read the rest of the article but it pretty much shows how much the Chinese are increasing their spy activities involving economic, political and militarily. its possible dat we are about to see the rising dragon and we are turning the other way because we need the Chinese while the China has a knife behind its back ready to stab while giving us a hug in friendship.




posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 11:34 AM
link   

Originally posted by deltaboy
we are about to see the rising dragon and we are turning the other way because we need the Chinese while the China has a knife behind its back ready to stab while giving us a hug in friendship.


- Oh get over it and wind in the melodramatic commentary delta.

They spy on the UK, the UK spys on them, they spy on the USA, the USA spys on them etc etc - ie we all spy on each other.

Did you see the link about the US spy budget of $44 billions?

I don't think the nation that spends $44 billions on it's spy business has too much call to go complaining about others when they do some spying.


New York Times News Service

WASHINGTON — In an apparent slip, a top U.S. intelligence official has revealed at a public conference what has long been secret: the amount of money the nation spends on its spy agencies.
At an intelligence conference in San Antonio last week, Mary Margaret Graham, a 27-year veteran of the CIA and now the deputy director of national intelligence for collection, said the annual intelligence budget was $44 billion.

deseretnews.com...




[edit on 11-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 01:21 PM
link   
Well, sminkeypinkey, since when has this ever been about what's simply fair? If your enemy is getting more information than you are, you're losing. This is a competition, really. And, in the end, who has more to gain from spying on who? What China is gaining here can, and probably will help speed up their military build up exponentially. Is America, or any other Western nation not supposed to be concerned by this?



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 01:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Did you see the link about the US spy budget of $44 billions?

I don't think the nation that spends $44 billions on it's spy business has too much call to go complaining about others when they do some spying.



we got 44 billion dollars but its spent on our own R&D for intelligence agencies to counter terrorism either biological, nuclear, or chemical as well as not to mention spending for the Homeland Security. i dont see the U.S. having some 3000 front companies for spying in China for military, political and economics related as China has in the U.S. do you?



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 01:31 PM
link   


we got 44 billion dollars but its spent on our own R&D for intelligence agencies to counter terrorism either biological, nuclear, or chemical as well as not to mention spending for the Homeland Security. i dont see the U.S. having some 3000 front companies for spying in China for military, political and economics related as China has in the U.S. do you?


I'm sure America has massive operations in China. I'm also sure that these stories are in fact released to the public only to increase political pressure against China in the first place.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 01:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Well, sminkeypinkey, since when has this ever been about what's simply fair?


- I never said it was, I am simply asking what all the fuss is really about and why people are just not prepared to consider these things 'in the round'.


If your enemy is getting more information than you are, you're losing.


- That is true, obviously.

But that is one hell of an 'if' (and unknown).


Is America, or any other Western nation not supposed to be concerned by this?


- I am sure those in this business are concerned.
However with the huge disparity in effort I doubt they are that troubled.


Originally posted by deltaboy
we got 44 billion dollars but its spent on our own R&D for intelligence agencies to counter terrorism either biological, nuclear, or chemical as well as not to mention spending for the Homeland Security.


- Firstly I have nodoubt 'Homeland security' is a completely different budget and secondly R&D would surely be a 'constant' all in this activity have to fund too, no?


i dont see the U.S. having some 3000 front companies for spying in China for military, political and economics related as China has in the U.S. do you?


- Of course not. 'We' do things a little differently (but no doubt 'we' too have 'our' various 'fronts' and proxies at work over there too)

'We' in the west have an infrastructure built up over decades involving the most sophisticated monitoring of almost every piece of EM 'traffic' generated in the world.

Don't kid yourself delta 'we' do a hell of a lot more than 'they' do.

The budgets alone prove it (unless you want to go with the idea your gov is gouging the US tax-payer for vast sums for nothing?)



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 01:38 PM
link   


- I never said it was, I am simply asking what all the fuss is really about and why people are just not prepared to consider these things 'in the round'.


Because I would say that in China, there is more emphasis placed on catching up to America. They are looking up, and America, or the West in general, aren't looking down enough to see the rising competition.



But that is one hell of an 'if' (and unknown)


Not really. As I said, who is going to gain more from spying on who? America will merely learn of China's capabilities, yet China is finding ways to rapidly increase their military expansion.



- I am sure those in this business are concerned.
However with the huge disparity in effort I doubt they are that troubled.


I would hope they are, as there has never been a threat greater than the rising China to America's place in the world. If things stay on their current course, America will be surpassed by China eventually. Action now instead of later would be a bit wiser.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 03:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
[Not really. As I said, who is going to gain more from spying on who? America will merely learn of China's capabilities, yet China is finding ways to rapidly increase their military expansion.


- No I completely disagree.

No harm to the Chinese but a lot of this is simply incapable of being quickly copied.
You either have the decades of technological and manufacturing research and the complete familiarity with it that comes from that or you don't.

A large part of the value of 'our' stuff is in the decades old technological lead; you can't just cut all those corners and crib the end product.

It would be like handing a Edison or Bell a digital watch, the plans for it and even a description of how to make the chips inside.......it would take him decades to get even close without the huge technological background and support structures that were available to those in the correct 'setting'.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 04:20 PM
link   


A large part of the value of 'our' stuff is in the decades old technological lead; you can't just cut all those corners and crib the end product.


No, but it will speed up the time it takes you to develop the technology of your own. If you have the answer to a math problem before you do the work, you're going to have a better idea if you are on the right track, won't you?



It would be like handing a Edison or Bell a digital watch, the plans for it and even a description of how to make the chips inside.......it would take him decades to get even close without the huge technological background and support structures that were available to those in the correct 'setting'.


Sure, unless they could find a way to fill in those other gaps by stealing more technology as the Chinese can. You are assuming they are getting only one part of the puzzle.

Either way, by the time they developed the other required technology, the watch would be easy to produce, and come about faster still.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 07:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
it will speed up the time it takes you to develop the technology of your own.


- OK that is true to a point, but in turn it ignores the ongoing progress elsewhere.

Kind of like those F16 lookylikey J10's just appearing now.

They look nice and they're impressive in their own way and are certainly a step up from what they had before but even then hardly a vast radical step up and not anything like today's 'cutting edge' either (and that applies even if they really are a re-skinned/reworked Lavi).


If you have the answer to a math problem before you do the work, you're going to have a better idea if you are on the right track, won't you?


- Sorry but I think the whole picture, the entire sophisticated manufacturing capability needed to back these projects, is nothing like this analogy.

I know what you are getting at but I think it leaves out vast chunks of the necessary experise in so many fields and the capability one must really have.


Sure, unless they could find a way to fill in those other gaps by stealing more technology as the Chinese can.


- That is just an assumption.

Until it is known exactly what was taken you are simply guessing.

The day they roll out their F22 & B2 (fully working) copies is the day I'll agree this with you.


You are assuming they are getting only one part of the puzzle.


- Not at all.
I still think it likely in the extreme that, unless they manage to steal an entire manufacturing process(es), the information will always be much less use to them.
Not necessarily useless but much less than it's true potential.

Spying for technology is always a game of catch up, they are never going to 'over take' on the basis of stealing old ideas.


Either way, by the time they developed the other required technology, the watch would be easy to produce, and come about faster still.


- Ok so it might not take 100yrs to reverse engineer the watch (although it still might) but it still will take a long long time and in the mean time things will have moved on enormously - like I said always catch up.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 07:51 PM
link   

They look nice and they're impressive in their own way and are certainly a step up from what they had before but even then hardly a vast radical step up and not anything like today's 'cutting edge' either (and that applies even if they really are a re-skinned/reworked Lavi).


The J-10 isn't about competing with America, it's just another step in their progression. It's a test project. You'll notice that China already has a very healthy fifth generation plane, and could very well be the second nation to produce it's own at this rate.


I know what you are getting at but I think it leaves out vast chunks of the necessary experise in so many fields and the capability one must really have.


You're assuming China is so far below us, though, and that it will take so long to catch up. It's not going to happen overnight. China is, if anything, very patient and steady.

I'm not worried of China invading us tomorrow, or even being on equal ground to our military in technology anytime in the near future. I just believe it's better to stop them now, when they are just starting, rather then when it is too late.

China is already coming to a point where they can start decreasing their reliance on Russian weapons, and actually start developing their own projects.



Spying for technology is always a game of catch up, they are never going to 'over take' on the basis of stealing old ideas.


No, but they have made some improvements to those old ideas. The J-10, for instance, isn't that far behind the Eurofighter.

But, with small bites to the lead over a 40 years time, what will happen? China has a few natural advantages already, like it's size, and population. The Chinese have a damned strong work ethic. One could say their political system has certain advantages over America's in terms of aiding its military. We can see the problems America has in long wars, and finishing what has been started. Would China have those same problems?



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 09:05 PM
link   
Somehow I think the French are better at industrial and military espionage. They take it from us, manufacture it, and sell it to the Chinese. Just a thought from things I've seen in the past.

Even now, high-tech items are purchased openly, since France is allowed to have them. And they show up in China. (Iraq, Iran, Syria, wherever.)

If you're really interested in doing a little research, you'll find export controlled cruise missile gyros made in the USA, for sale from a French company, on a French controlled website in Japan, in Japanese/Chinese, aimed at the Chinese marketplace. Isn't the world wide web a wonderful tool?



posted on Nov, 13 2005 @ 03:10 AM
link   

Originally posted by deltaboy
its possible dat we are about to see the rising dragon and we are turning the other way because we need the Chinese while the China has a knife behind its back ready to stab while giving us a hug in friendship.


sounds like the western countries and their colonies in the 19th centuries.

Its a fact that every country spies on each other. Its to know what your enemy/compettion is doing and to better him



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 02:10 PM
link   
If you think the US isn't spying on China too, I have a bridge to sell you at an unbelievably low price


It's hard to get upset about the spying, hell Israel spies on the US and they're supposed to be our best buds...

The simple fact is everybody spies on everybody. It's not entirely a bad thing, without spies reporting back and forth between Moscow and DC the Cold War could very easily have turned hot through simple misunderstandings.

[edit on 11/15/05 by xmotex]



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 04:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by xmotex
hell Israel spies on the US and they're supposed to be our best buds...[edit on 11/15/05 by xmotex]

lol, I wouldn't go that far...were allies because they are a little like the US, and they also arn't arfaid to go to war, among several other reasons. But we have much better technology then they do, so naturaly they try and get it through (not so legal) means. The US would be much more open to sell them more advance weapons if they wouldn't sell them to other countries...like China.



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 08:58 PM
link   
I wonder if nobody spied on the US how may jobs would be cut in Counter intelligence activities. Apart from that like everyone has said they spy on us we spy on them, etc. It only hots up when some poor spy gets caught and that proves that the money spent on counter intelligence is good value and the guys are doing a good job. Its an industry as old as prostitution.

The world keeps turning........................

[edit on 15-11-2005 by Munro_DreadGod]



posted on Nov, 16 2005 @ 10:51 PM
link   
*sigh*

The Russians have a suporior F-22. the Mig 1.42 its just a matter of us buying it under licsense and reverse engineer it.

Next, everyone spies on everyone. Get over it.

Next, stop us now? You do realize that you wouldn't be able to win that war, you do realize your companies which are quite globalized will cry foul and crucify your political parties, after all how much donations your parties get from these very corporations?

And if you tried to stop trade WTO will get on your case and according to certain international laws you will LOSE billions of dollars as you have to pay each WTO member who loses out with you pulling out of China.

And finally, as k4rupt once asked on another thread, if the war went nuclear what are you willing to trade millions of AMERICAN lives for? What does it matter if we surpass you? You will still make money, you will still have influence, and you will still have your independance.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 03:28 AM
link   
Bici Bici,nimen hai FBI ne,erqie mingmuzhangdan.




top topics



 
0

log in

join