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the true islam

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posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 08:43 AM
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The way Islam is practised in different regions/cultures is THE BEAUTY, it is the liberty that Islam gives


Islam being practised by different cultures is one thing. These different cultures claiming that their cultural traditions are part of islam, is a different thing entirely.

islam is islam. Thats it. You either follow the Quran, or you dont. You either follow what God says, or you make up laws and claim they came from God.

Islam should not need to be practised differently. Culture and tradition aside.....islam is about believing in God, in the Unseen, in the Books, the Angels, the Messengers, about honouring commitments etc.

NOT about cultural traditions.

If we do that, we add things. The prohibition on eating pork, becomes a prohibition on wearing pig skin sandals.
The ADVISE to stay away from alcohol, becomes a law where even deodarants with alcohol is FORBIDDEN.
It is cultural tradition that states that circumcision is a law of islam, that (God forbid) female genital mutilation is "encouraged" in islam, that stoning someone to death is a law, that cutting of the hand of a thief is a law, that treating women like crap is a law.

Sorry.....tradition and culture have no place in islam. If you want to do something because its your tradition.....then thats fine. But when you start claiming that that thing is because of islam....thats where i start having problems with it

salaam
aisha




posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by geek101





The way Islam is practised in different regions/cultures is THE BEAUTY, it is the liberty that Islam gives




Islam being practised by different cultures is one thing. These different cultures claiming that their cultural traditions are part of islam, is a different thing entirely.

[.............................]

Sorry.....tradition and culture have no place in islam. If you want to do something because its your tradition.....then thats fine. But when you start claiming that that thing is because of islam....thats where i start having problems with it








geek101,
Salaam.

I agree partially.

1- If it means that Islam has nothing to do with tradititions/cultures, I don't agree. Because Islam has its own set of norms for islamic society.

2- If it means that Islam is not hindered/damaged by traditions/cultures, I agree. Because Islam is not so rigid/fragile.

3- Diversity among regional traditions/cultures (within the limits set by Islam) is a social reality, and Islam does not ban it.

Once again, I'm not an Islamic Scholar. What I say is what I take as right. Every one has the right to peruse, citicise and suggest his/her own version.


Salaam.


chaudri



posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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This book may open your eyes concerning Islam. No I didn't write it. Just don't take the Christian theology too seriously. The stuff about Islam is right on the mark from a Cairo professor. Islam & Terrorism by Mark A. Gabriel (psuedoname)
Description:
The Western media declares that "at its core, Islam is moderate and tolerant of others" (New York Times Magazine). Author Mark A. Gabriel, former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, disagrees. He says that terrorists are practicing Islam just as Muhammad intended.
For the readers of this book, the motive behind Islamic world activity will no longer be a mystery. Each action is obviously rooted in the philosophy of Islam. Now both the Christian and the political world must decide how to react to Muhammad's revelation.



posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 03:56 PM
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I find that if someone is going to put something down on paper .. it has to correlate with everyone else's thoughts especially if you are going to try and get EVERYONE to join in believeing it ... So obviously they are not going to say you have to commit Jihad if your neighbor does not conform to you .. or blah blah blah ... Whatever ..



posted on Dec, 18 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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5lostboy5 wrote: I find that if someone is going to put something down on paper .. it has to correlate with everyone else's thoughts especially if you are going to try and get EVERYONE to join in believeing it ... So obviously they are not going to say you have to commit Jihad if your neighbor does not conform to you .. or blah blah blah ... Whatever


Who is trying to get "everyone joining in"?
If you're going to post such ignorant comments, which you believe to be true however, i ask that you back them up.
I challenge you to find me ONE verse from the Quran which tells us to commit jihad (do you even know what that means?) against our neighbour.

Oh, and verses about war, taken out of context, dont count.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 09:38 AM
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Wnat to know why most Muslim fundamentalists have despised "Christians" in the past? Here you go, straight from the the Quran:

Surah v. 76-69: "They misbelieve who say, 'Verily, God is the Messiah, the son of Mary'; but the Messiah said, 'O children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord; verily, he who associates aught with God, God hath forbidden him Paradise, and his resort is the Fire, and the unjust shall have none to help them. They misbelieve who say, 'Verily God is the third of three, for there is no God but one; and if they do not desist from what they say, there shall touch those who misbelieve amongst them grievous woe. Will they not turn again towards God and ask pardon of Him? For God is forgiving and merciful.' The Messiah, the son of Mary, is only a prophet! Prophets before him have passed away; and his mother was a confessor; they used both to eat food. See how we explain to them the signs, yet see how they turn aside!"

Surah iv. 169: "O ye people of the Book! Overstep not bounds in your religion; and of God, speak only truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and His Word which he conveyed into Mary, and a Spirit from Him. Believe, therefore, in God and His apostles, and say not, 'Three': (i.e. there is a Trinity) - Forbear - it will be better for you. God is only one God! Far be it from His glory that He should have a son! His, whatever is in the Heavens, and whatever is in the Earth! And God is a sufficient Guardian."

Surah v. 116, 117: "And when God shall say - 'O Jesus, Son of Mary: hast thou said unto mankind - "Take me and my mother as two Gods, besides God?"' He shall say - 'Glory be unto Thee! It is not for me to say that which I know to be not the truth; had I said that, verily thou wouldest have known it: Thou knowest what is in me, but I know not what is in Thee; for Thou well knowest things unseen! I spake not to them aught but that which thou didst bid me - "Worship God, my Lord and your Lord", and I was a witness against them so long as I was amongst them: but when Thou didst take me away to Thyself Thou wert the watcher over them, for Thou art witness over all.'"

Idol worship. He muslims perceived that the Christians were idolitors by worshipping a three headed freak. It has always been that People of the book have worshipped a single entity that had many manifestations of his personality and power. He had different titles and attributed but he was always ONE. After the perversion and conversion of many to worshipping a form of polytheistic representation of God, it was gloves off for the Muslims.

The Apostles were Jews. Jews only worshipped one God. Jesus was that one God wrapped in flesh to reconsile (sp?) the world to Himself for payment of sin. There is always a punishment for doing wrong.

Apostolics (of which I am counted among) only believe in one God. His last name to be revieled to man was Jesus. There is none other name given among men by which we must be saved.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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forgive me for being a little confused here, but how do the verses you quote teach muslims to "despise" christians?
Even the verses about non believers dont teach us to despise them. As God tells Muhammad to say:

you shall follow your religion and i shall follow my religion.

Thats it. No hatred here my friend.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by geek101
forgive me for being a little confused here, but how do the verses you quote teach muslims to "despise" christians?


The text in its entirety uses language that places Jews and Christians on some level lower than Muslims (believers). In fact, it specifically says to "not take Christians and Jews for friends as they are friends to one another."



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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i think this is another mistranslation, in this case, the word "friend".

I know, i know...."what...ANOTHER mistranslation"....but think about it. We, as muslims, are allowed to marry jews and christians.....hardly fits in with the...."stay away from them, they're evil" rhetoric now, does it?



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by geek101
I know, i know...."what...ANOTHER mistranslation"....but think about it. We, as muslims, are allowed to marry jews and christians.....hardly fits in with the...."stay away from them, they're evil" rhetoric now, does it?


Please show the reference (Qur'an, Hadith, Sharia etc) where it states Muslims are permitted to marry non-Muslims.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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"This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour" (5:5)

i take my references from the Quran only, not hadith or shariah
salaam
aisha



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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I was going to edit my previous post; but since you already responded, I'll make this new post.

Here is a good answer to this specific question with references included.

Excerpt:

Question

Can a Muslim Woman Marry a Non-Muslim Man ?

Answer

It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man. In the Qur'an, Allah has said:

"And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikoon till they believe (in Allaah alone)" [al-Baqarah 2:221]

The answer is quite lengthy.

Geek101; Are you a man or woman?



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 05:54 PM
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freedom,

hi, ok, the site you referenced, gave a fairly ok answer to the question. But Al-Mushrikoon, are not jews or christians (ahl-al-kitab, or people of the scriptures). Al-mushrikoon are idolators (sp), and the begininng of that verse also states that men are not to marry al-mushrikoon either.

Your post brought up an interesting question for me though, and one which i intend to look into. Are muslim women allowed to marry jews or christians, or is that just reserved for muslim men. (as sunnis say)

I am a woman by the way. :-)



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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i would also like to add that in that site you gave a link to, it talks about how muslim women cant marry other faiths (or disbelievers) because it would be dangerous to children they have.
However, its worth noting that God says in the Quran that
"Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve"

in other words, if jews and christians and sabaens (dont know who they are) are going to "be ok with God" according to islam, then i see no reason why muslim women shouldnt be allowed to marry them.



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Geek101;

Were you born into Islam or did you convert?

While I believe it is your right (and your business) to belong to whatever religion you choose, I feel compelled to ask why you would want to belong to a religion whose views of women are disturbingly against women?



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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freedom_for_sum wrote: While I believe it is your right (and your business) to belong to whatever religion you choose, I feel compelled to ask why you would want to belong to a religion whose views of women are disturbingly against women?


hi

I am actually a convert to islam. I converted to Islam when i was 18, and i'm now 30 (ahem) something :-)

In answer to the second part of your question.
To be honest, when i first became a muslim, i wasnt really aware of the hadiths that were against women. (i assume you are speaking of the hadiths here, because the Quran sees women entirely differently than what they do)

And yes, as time went on, and i read more (being an avid reader), i was.....disturbed......by the so called sayings of Muhammad (pbuh) which said nasty and insulting things about women.

Its only when i started really studying Islam (about a year ago), that i realised everything i had been uncomfortable with, as far as Islam goes (punishments, womens status, little silly superstitious things etc), were actually nothing to do with Islam.
They ALL came from the hadith.

The question you asked previously, is a perfect example of this. About the right of muslim women to marry jews and christians.
For ages now, sunni muslims have denied muslim women this choice, but after looking into it, thanks to your post, i see NO evidence of God forbidding that.

See, i write this with somewhat despair and resignation, because i know what the typical view of islam is, and i know the islam that is practised by the majority of muslims today.

Unfortunately, i dont think they are practising it, as it is meant to be practised.

Sunni and Shias have taken awful liberties when interpreting the Quran. And they add the hadith as something equal to the word of God (now, if you're a non believer, then that means nothing, but to me, when i constantly read and see people quoting what they think are Muhammads sayings, instead of quoting the Quran....it p***** me off too much)

Womens status in islam is fine, trust me. :-)

Islam is such a simple religion. I am struck by this fact, daily. And as a consequence, i am struck by the fact also, that we, as humans (muslims) have done what we seem to do best.....and that is to screw up a perfectly simple, clear and excellent message.

salaam
aisha



posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by geek101
To be honest, when i first became a muslim, i wasnt really aware of the hadiths that were against women. (i assume you are speaking of the hadiths here, because the Quran sees women entirely differently than what they do)


Are you familiar with Sura 4:34? There, the Qur'an directs husbands to beat their recalcitrant wives; albeit, as a last resort and to do so lightly.


Originally posted by geek101
And yes, as time went on, and i read more (being an avid reader), i was.....disturbed......by the so called sayings of Muhammad (pbuh) which said nasty and insulting things about women.


And to be a good Muslim you must follow the path of the prophet. The Hadith provide the guidance by which Muslims are to live--or they're not Muslims.


Originally posted by geek101
Womens status in islam is fine, trust me. :-)


Maybe your status is "fine" because you're a Muslim living under constitutional law; not under Sharia law. If you we're living in a Muslim nation your opinion of your status might be very different.



[edit on 25-12-2005 by Freedom_for_sum]



posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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Check out this thread where I submitted a news item about a guide written by an Imam describing how Muslim husbands should beat their wives.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 07:53 AM
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Freedom



Are you familiar with Sura 4:34? There, the Qur'an directs husbands to beat their recalcitrant wives; albeit, as a last resort and to do so lightly.


Yes, i'm familiar with that verse. It is a verse which is often brought up to show how "cruel" islam is.
I have two parts to the reply of this.
Firstly, the full context of the verse is as follows:

"Men are in charge of (or overseers of - qawwamuna) women, as Allah has given them more (strength) than the other (sometimes translated as made them superior to the other), and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). Therefore women who are virtuous are obedient to God, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what God would have them guard. As for those women on whose part you fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adribu) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. For God is Most High, Great (above you all)"

Although qawwamuna has been interpreted by many to imply that women should occupy an inferior position in Islam, this is not the intention at all. Some translators of the Qur’an have used the word ‘guardian’, as if suggesting women were indeed inferior, but this is not the chief implication of the word qawwam. Rather than a domineering boss or master, it implies ‘one who stands firm in the business of others, protects their interests, and looks after their affairs’. The same word is used elsewhere in the Qur’an, as later in the same Surah, 4.135: ‘O you who believe, stand out firmly (qawwamina) for justice as witnesses to Allah…..’

The Arabic word "nushuz" which many translators translate into "rebellion" is actually a word which means "ill-treatment".
Going back to the original idea for this thread, it can be shown in this clear example how translators sometimes deliberately put in different words.
This is proven by a verse which occurs later in this same surah:

"If a wife fears ill-treatment (nushuz) or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves, and such settlement is best…..’ (Surah 4.128)

So, once we have that out of the way, lets turn to the word "adribu" which translators, scholars etc, have taken to mean "beat". This word can also be translated as "to separate, to part, to set out (on the road), to shroud (in darkness), and many more. Just as in english, when one says "beat it", it could mean physically hitting something, or telling someone to leave, arabic words also sometimes have more than one meaning.

If you take the verse which follows into context also, it talks about seperation. So one could argue that it doesnt even mean beat anyway.

Secondly, lets say it does mean to beat. What is God telling men? That they can beat their wives whenever they want?
No.
Is it telling them they can beat their wives if their wives ill treat them?
No.
IN an age where women getting beaten by their husbands daily, in the western world and elsewhere (i speak from experience here too), God is telling men....calm down...first....talk to them.
Now if my ex husband had employed this verse, i would never have been hit. And i think in most circumstances, if man and wife were to sit and he were to talk to her gently and persuasively, then the matter would be resolved.
Even if its not, God still doesnt give that right. There is yet another thing he must do first. Which is refuse to sleep in the same bed.
If that doesnt work either, and the wife is still ill-treating him (remember, ILL-TREATING him, NOT disobeying him, or rebelling against him), then God finally gives that right.
Elsewhere in the Quran, God tells us that men and women are protectors of one another.

I am personally of the opinion that it does not mean beat.
My reasons for such is the verse that immediately follows it talks of getting arbitrators to act in seperation. (what would be the point if he beat her?...that would be it wouldnt it?...there would be no need)
ANd my second reason is that word "nushuz" (ill-treatment). Women are told that if she fears ill-treatment from her husband, she can seek divorce. What better example of ill-treatment can you think of, than beating?
So why would God on the one hand advise men to beat their wives and then tell the wives to divorce their husbands when they do so?

I dont mind to answer such questions. I will never shy away from answering such things, because i DO believe in this conspiracy against islam. And i DO believe that over 1400 years, it has been changed to oppress women. There are many instances of this.


And to be a good Muslim you must follow the path of the prophet. The Hadith provide the guidance by which Muslims are to live--or they're not Muslims.


Who says i am not a muslim if i reject the hadith?
You?
The sunnis?
I dont care.
I dont know where you got this particular quote/idea from, but it sounds to me you are merely parroting what you have heard. Which is exactly what i am trying to fight against here.
People should look things up for themselves and not rely on what other people tell them. I dont care if it has become, by way of this method, an "accepted" way.
I remember watching soemthing on tv, and one of the characters was speaking to her husband, and she said:

"when i was young, i used to watch my mother cooking sunday dinner, and she would cut the ends off the pot roast before putting it into the oven. When i finally asked her why she did this, she replied that she did it, because HER mother had done it. So i went to my grandmother and asked her...why do you cut the ends off the pot roast before you cook it?...she replied...because MY mother used to do it. So finally i went to see my great-grandmother, and asked her...why did you used to cut the ends off the pot roast before you put it into the oven?...and her reply?....'because the pan was too small'"

And that, to me, sums up perfectly the practise of most muslims today.....they have no idea why they do things.
That doesnt mean i should be the same.
I AM a muslim and i dont need you or some guy in saudi arabia or some guy here in the uk, telling me i'm not, just because i dont follow the hadith.



Maybe your status is "fine" because you're a Muslim living under constitutional law; not under Sharia law. If you we're living in a Muslim nation your opinion of your status might be very different


Exactly. WHich is why i fear these idiots as much as other people do. I would love for the world to be run according to Gods law.
But it would never happen. Because even if these "extremists" ever got their wish, we would all be under shariah law. Which has sod all to do with Gods law.
I prefer the law which states that people can repent, that people have no compulsion in religion, over a law which kills people for apostasy, blasphemy, adultery, etc.
I was on a forum the other day, for people who think like me, and we were saying....if that ever happened, then we would be like the French Resistance....passing secret messages, learning about the Quran in secret meetings etc.....lol

And while its a romantic notion, i also have no wish to be killed because of what i beleive in.
YOu have to understand, i have been on forums (sunni forums) where people have called for the death of "hadith-rejectors".
And you're right, i am in a position where i can be complacent about that right now. BUt many people arent.

If you are truly interested in islam, i urge you, to seek less orthodox means of studying it. Forget the scholars, the imams, the sunni and shia way. Read the quran yourself, arm yourself with even a limited knowledge of arabic. And i promise you, it will take you about a week to discover that all is not what it seems.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 08:09 AM
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people please get back to reality, you wake up every morning and look at yourself in the mirrow and your another day older.

Those of us with mirrows all do, now when the day comes and you dont wake up, your life will be judged on the good you did in life and not your religion or your family or your country.

forget the racial religous crap and live every day like its your last, be the best you can be for you, because when its over you as you look in the mirror today will never be again, and the world will forget.



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