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the true islam

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posted on Nov, 12 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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True Islam?

Religion is irrational. The human mind has an infinite capacity for self-deception, and the human race has an infinite capacity for inflicting brutality in the name of irrational beliefs.

If there is to be anything good in the pursuit of religion, it would be the simple renunciation of violence.

If you are Muslim (or subscribe to any other 'ism'), ask yourself why? Because your father was? Because you have found evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the mythology is indeed fact?

It is time to renounce violence as a species.

We have much to do as a species, and less time than you might think to do it, if we are to collectively avoid extinction.

The current Islamic troubles have set our civilization back by centuries.

Welcome to the new Dark Ages.




posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 10:27 AM
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I applaud everyone on such a very interesting and mature discussion. From what I am reading on this thread I see a lot of similarities between Islam and Christianity. God gave us a book upon which to find answers, God gave us living examples from whom to immulate, God promises us a great reward for following this example. In the Bible as in the Quran, men not God, have taken the teaching and changed them to fit their intereptation
of what is God's will. The King James Bible is not the complete writings
passed down to us from the Black Sea Scrolls. It is the version of the Bible that was decided by certain men that we should read based on the teachings that they wanted us to follow. Just as the Story of Lady Mageline
is misconstrued so that women are not repesented as equals to men. What I mean is, she was not a whore as is commonly repesented. There are other examples but I will not go into them for the sake of time. I see this same premise in Islam in that men have taken what was given to us in it's purest form and edited it to better fit the political or common held beliefs of the time. God gave us his words, he gave us his example and he gave us wisdom to learn from them both. It is this wisdom that should allow us to see right from wrong, even if someone is telling us that being a certain way or doing a certain thing is Okay!! It is not okay and we are responsible for our own actions. It is why God gave us free will! It is why we have a conscience. As a Christian I simply have to ask myself, 'What would Jesus do or say if he were here today?' So I therefore ask my Islamic brethren, What would Mohammad do or say if he were here today?
For the life of me I cannot believe he would condone what is happening!
Am I wrong?



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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I think it is time to stop all religions.

It has become quite silly to kill ourselves in the name of something we have never seen.

If God exists, he/she/it surely is for all people and not for some of the people.



posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by masterp
I think it is time to stop all religions.

It has become quite silly to kill ourselves in the name of something we have never seen.

If God exists, he/she/it surely is for all people and not for some of the people.


I don't think its religions that causes men to kill other men, I believe it's men that causes men to kill other men. I mean if you think about it all religion is good nature by heart, except the satanism (urg...eww) anyways, what I was trying to say is it's how people interpret and use religion.

These days and about a thousand years ago people misused religion. Some church leaders from the crusades. The middle-eastern terrorist. Pat Robertson. All of these people abuse religion and use it for there own selfish greed. IT'S ALL ABOUT POWER!! That's all these men ever wanted.

Ignorant and arrogant believer of the religions is then easily corrupted and feed from the lies and that's how religious conflict starts.

I've mention this before, but like you I rarely read previous posts.

[edit on 14-11-2005 by skyblueff0]



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by masterp
I think it is time to stop all religions.

It has become quite silly to kill ourselves in the name of something we have never seen.

If God exists, he/she/it surely is for all people and not for some of the people.


"Everyday more and more people are leaving church and going back to God." - I forgot who said that


Religions are just institutions built around explanations of God. If you had a totally mind-blowing, life changing, vision of God and the full Truth of Reality; how would you possibly explain it to someone and give them the same effect the vision had on you? You couldnt. People used to walk with God, and one day will again. (I hope..) Wether or not this is true, is not the problem. A religion gets build around Jesus, or Krishna, or Ra, but a religion is only a good descrition to a few people during a few years, until everything becomes outdated. Everything changes, the world changes, and old messages are no longer sufficient. So some religions try to beat others into submission to make it like it used to be. But we can never go back to the days when that one religion held true for a certain group of people. We have to continue to evolve.

The original message of all "religious" persons, or rather enlightened persons, gets lost in translation. Muhammad didnt know what a bomb belt was, or how to fire a mortor round into a jewish settlement, so why should we take his old words as the guide for these new actions. WWMD? What would muhommad do? He may very well have gone to war, as he often did, and probably would still marry 6 year olds, but hes dead; so stop using him as an excuse and just admit you are an evil sunofabitch when you detonate your bomb belt.



posted on Nov, 22 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by ViolatoR

"Everyday more and more people are leaving church and going back to God." - I forgot who said that


[............]



Whoever said that was a genious, God fearing and a pure religious man.........


God calls humans to obey His commands, not to follow the Church or Rabbi or a Mullah...............!

A muslim Sufi Poet says"You may demolish Masjid/Church or Temple (religiously thought as home of God), but never break any ones heart as God actually lives there."


It is not the religion that causes trouble, it is the way it is applied.

Einstein was not a terrorist when he formulated E=mcc that dawned the production of nuclear weapons. It was a formula. It is terrorism to use it for human destruction...........some of us have done so, most of us plan and threat to do so.

Science is not bad; applications may be dangerous.

Einstein is dead, thanks God. if he were alive he would have been arrested and prosecuted under Patriot act.

[edit on 22/11/2005 by chaudri]



posted on Nov, 22 2005 @ 11:27 PM
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Geek101 - Thank you! Thanks, also, to the other followers of Islam who have added to the discussion.

I've studied Judaism and Christianity but hardly anything about Islam except as it appears in the context of the other religions that I've studied - mostly in my studies of the Crusades. It's time for me to get busy with this Abrahamic religion and learn about it - past time!

Obviously, I would like to get a Quran (what is the correct English spelling?) and read it but I'd like to have more suggestions for reading about the history since it is really the history of the various religions that interests me most. I would appreciate your suggested reading list - one that suits a guy like me that is starting from zero.

I can certainly understand where you're coming from regarding the distortions of religious teachings and how people (mostly political leaders) have warped the messages throughout the last couple of thousand years. It seems that the basic pattern that keeps repeating is for the political/military/social leaders use their religion as a convenient excuse to justify whatever power-grab they are engaged in at the moment.

It's the same story over and over - "G-d told me to do it." And the "sheeple" all say "well, then it must be a good thing!"

If people do not know much about their own religion and even less about other religions, then they will almost always believe almost anything if it is spoken in the same sentence as a reference to Zuess, Odin, G-d, Jesus, Allah, or whatever is the most popular divinity of the day among those people.

So many people want to use the fact that "many people have died for this religion" as some evidence of the inherent "truth" because we tend to think that people won't willingly die for a false religion - wouldn't it be wonderful if this were true?!

Personally, I feel that G-d does not really care one bit about which name you use or what rituals or which agents or any other of those things that I tend to think of as "accessorizing G-d" - it's no more important than choosing which belt you wear to a worship service. Still, I don't think it is dignified in any way to try to claim the "one true religion" and I think that causes conflict among people and that conflict is what G-d finds most displeasing. The rest of it, I doubt G-d cares about one way or another.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 11:33 AM
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Original by Al Davison

I've studied Judaism and Christianity but hardly anything about Islam except as it appears in the context of the other religions that I've studied - mostly in my studies of the Crusades. It's time for me to get busy with this Abrahamic religion and learn about it - past time!





Al Davison,



Here are some links to Quran Browser and USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts.

Visit the links and feedback on this forum or u2u.









chaudri



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 02:07 PM
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Chaudri - thank you!

At first, I thought to just U2U you about this but it occurred to me that others might benefit and even help out with this question:

Which English translation do you recommend? Not knowing much about Quran, I am curious since there is much discussion about which English-text Bible is most accurate. So many English-text Bibles seem to be "doctrine-translated", I was wondering if the same could be true for different versions of the Quran in English.
Is this a controversy among English-speaking Muslims, too?

Thanks in advance!



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by Al Davison



Which English translation do you recommend? Not knowing much about Quran, I am curious since there is much discussion about which English-text Bible is most accurate. So many English-text Bibles seem to be "doctrine-translated", I was wondering if the same could be true for different versions of the Quran in English.
Is this a controversy among English-speaking Muslims, too?

Thanks in advance!





Al Davison all others interested,
Assalamo Alekum,

I'm a simple muslim, nothing like a scholar. Here is my view , I pardon if I'm not correct. Anybody can point out errors and make corrections.

To the best of my knowledge original Quran in Arabic is the only accurate text, all Muslims agree to that. More than 1400 years of Islamic History confirm that text of Arabic Quran that we have today is non-contrversial, safe and the same since beginning. No rule, early or late, muslim or non-muslim could ever cause any editting of /adition to the original text.

All translations into other languages can be faulty; there could be mis-translation or mis-interpretation. As in other texts there may be words that convey different/multiple meanings in other languages.

Taken that much into account, I recommend to start with Pickthal's. Pickthal, a non-branded (non-sectarian), generic new-muslim, with English as mother tounge and exposure to original Arabic while living among badouian arab tribes, is at the best position to convey the unbiased translation of Quran.

Other than literary comments, I have not heard any noise over any of the translations presented in the browser link.

Muslims are vey sensitive about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Quran. Their silence on these translations suggets thier approval at large. Where there is a gross fundamental difference among these four transslations, that can be put before the forum, or u2u me , I'll be happy to post replies after consulting a scholar.




chaudri.



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 08:16 AM
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i would tend to agree with Chaudri on this one. Pickthalls translation is ok, there is also the Yusuf Ali translation.
Although you have to be aware that any translation is going to be...hmm.....how can i say this, translated sometimes in accordance with the translators opinions.

After studying this only for a short while, it has become clear to me that sometimes translators take liberties and add or twist words to their own agenda.

An example would be the arabci word "alhadeethi".....ie, hadith. In 3 verses, Yusuf Ali has translated this word as:
idle talk
recital
message
which can be confusing to muslims and non muslims if they know what they are looking for.

I also suggest, if you are interested in learning about islam from a purely Quranic point of view, the website for free minds:

Free minds

i have pointed you to the URL of the Articles page, as i think this is the most informative.

salaam
aisha



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 08:23 AM
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babloyi wrote:


The examples you quoted all are either backed up by or contradicted by the Quran. The Quran mentions modesty and covering your bossom when travelling. You can take that however you want in favour or against hijab. The method for wudhu (ablutions) is directly mentioned in the Quran. I don't see how 2.5% zakat contradicts the Quran. You have an obligation to give a certain amount, but after that, give as much as you want, all the better for you


salaam
if these hadith are contradicted by the Quran, then why are they such an important part of Islam today?
if not, then please tell me the verses in the quran where the practise of stoning is mentioned. Also please tell me the verse in the Quran which mentions specifically "hijab" when referring to women and dress codes.
Wudu (ablutions) IS mentioned in the Quran, as you pointed out, so please tell me why most muslims do it a different way (in accordance with Imam Bukhari)
And finally....the zakat issue. I dont understand you on this. The quran (God) says to give that which is superfluous. Please explain to me, why this has become a fixed amount (2.5%). There is no reason for it, apart from the fact that muslims take Bukhair as a more important reference over the Quran.
Its really very simple.
You cannot tell me that you do these things because they are "better" or "improved".
If you say this, then you are, in effect, telling me that Gods explanation of how to do things was not sufficient.
salaam
aisha

[edit on 24-11-2005 by geek101]



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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ViolatoR wrote:


In 1997 the highest religious authority in Saudi Arabia stated that the Earth is flat and any muslim who disagrees is an infadel to be killed.

So, are the leaders the extremists? Or just the cells of highschool aged kids who give the excuse "its the only way i'd ever get to have sex with 72 virgins" when caught trying to kill Jews while blowing themselves up with C4 and ball bearings.

Every week a different religious authority or leader of muslim country comes out and publicly states that their top priority is pushing the Jews into the sea and killing every last one. Regime changes are the only option left, and if the country majority does willingly follow the extremist party-line, then a war is necessary for the safety of the world against a country that would sponsor international terror. I would rather see muslims rioting in their own countries everytime their leaders set commandments for them to kill every non-mulsim they meet. But that never happens, and American muslims never speak out against jihadist fatwas (sp?).


The Saudi Arabian government (despite popular belief) is hardly an example of a true islamic country.

This was the whole point of my initial post. To show people that everything you hear or read about Islam today, is NOT islam.
I cant make it any clearer than that. The majority of muslims are NOT following Islam. They are following the writings of Imam Bukhari, of Imam Muslim, of Imam Tirmidhi, they are following the schools of thought of Abu Hanifa, Maliki, or someone else whose name escapes me right now (shafi, i think).......they are NOT following the Quran.

I would also like to repeat something Nygdan said, about the people who post here, that muslims never speak out against terrorists etc.......Nygdan said that these posters would ignore this thread.
Indeed they have.
So i would like to ask......Skippy...Dr Horacid....Helmutt...FlyersFan....GradyPhilpott.....and all the rest.....where are you????

Did a post by a muslim condemning how Islam is practised, throw you off?
Can you not find it in yourself to contribute to a post like this? Is it perhaps you are actually only happy when you can post drivel pointing out how Iran is a threat, or posts about some sicko (who happens to be a muslim) killing/threatening to kill someone?

Believe me guys....i have had it with sunni muslims. I went on a website last night, a forum.....and 98% of the posts were praising Muhammad (pbuh).......hardly any were about God. These people are not muslims. And ironically, when they are confronted by people like me (who believe only that we should follow the word of God in the Quran).....they call us kaffirs....(although how i can be an unbeliever when i believe, i dont know), they call us deviants, they say we have a hatred of the Prophet Muhammad, that we have gone outside the folds of Islam....i have even read of people calling for us to be killed.

Well done, all you sunni muslims out there who believe this. Seriously, congratulations. I hope you realise of course, that non-muslims visit these sites also and the impression of islam that they must leave with......it makes me so angry i cant even express it.

You are ruining islam.
Do you realise, that if we followed only the Quran, we would not be killing ANYONE apart from in wars (and only then, if we are attacked)......there IS no death penalty for apostates, for adulterers, for anyone. Even in the case of murder, rape.....the law of equality is mentioned (where the victims family can exact punishment on the criminal) but even THEN, we are urged to forgive instead.

I despair.....i do. Unfortunately, the only people reading this thread and replying to it, are people who genuinely have an interest in knowing the true islam.

People like Skippy and Helmutt etc, are, i feel, quite happy with their preconceived notions.

salaam
aisha



posted on Nov, 24 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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What a great thread!! Unfortunately, I'm a little too inebriated (I'm not limited by Islamic restrictions) to post anything thought provoking or meaningful at this time. I'm posting this so I can easily return here from my "board subscriptions" when I'm a little more sober.

Hello Babloyi!! I thought you'd disappeared


L8ter--I'll be back



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by geek101
hi and salaam to everyone

Ok, i am writing today, as a muslim, who is fed up with muslims.

And that was it, really. Because AS a muslim, i am SO fed up with hearing things about Islam, that are SO not true.

I am not blaming Mr Spurlock here...no, i am blaming muslims....the majority of anyway, for given this warped and untrue version of Islam, which is NOT based on the Quran......its not, and i know you hear this so many times....that Islam is really peaceful, blah blah blah......but i am here to tell you that Islam WAS hijacked.....i dont know when, but it was.

What you see as Islam today, and indeed, what maybe a billion muslims perceive as Islam today, is NOT islam.


Geek101;

Thank you for being one of the first Muslims to look hard into your own faith and raise these issues. Thank you for putting into perspective the obviously large numbers of "believers" who subscribe to this literal interpretation of Islam. Thank you for pointing out that Muslims need to look in the mirror and figure out what it is about their own faith that is contributing to most global problems today.

Many of these issues you brougt up here have been brought up before by non-Muslims--only to be labelled as 'islamophobes" by various Islamic alphabet groups such as CAIR. Clearly, this discussion needs to happen--among Muslims if there is any chance for reform.

I also want to tell you to PLEASE be careful!!! Most of those billions of Muslims you refer to consider what you're doing here as Haram (sp) since discussions critical of Islam is un-Islamic.

Thanks for the thread.



posted on Nov, 25 2005 @ 11:09 AM
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Good points!

I don't pretend to understand all I need to understand about Islam and the cultural aspects of this discussion.

In my naivete, I would have to draw some paralells to what is happening in Islam to what is happening with Christianity. Some of the leaders of each of those religions are making up the rules as they go - all with (probably) sincere and deeply-held beliefs that they are acting as their G-d would have them act. Think about guys like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, the Pope, etc. all "directing" Christians to behave in most unChristian ways as they preach from their bully pulpits and have thousands or millions believe that G-d is speaking through them. As if G-d needed these pompous "middle-men" to speak on G-d's behalf! The arrogance of it all makes me furious! G-d does not need special agents to speak to humanity.

So, before we single out Muslims to "clean up their act", I think all religions should look around their own stoops and see the trash piling up. In the USA, that would be the Christians. In other countries, that might be Islam. To all people, let your G-d speak directly to you and pay no attention to the self-righteous and superfulous shamans!



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 12:24 PM
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originally posted by Al Daviston


As if G-d needed these pompous "middle-men" to speak on G-d's behalf! The arrogance of it all makes me furious! G-d does not need special agents to speak to humanity.




I agree in total to Al Daviston on these points.

It is not the fault of Einstien to discover/theoriseE=mcc, it is the fault of those who use this theory for human destruction.

Islam or other religions are not dangerous, it is the mentality/ approach/ by those pompous "middle-men" to speak on God's behalf, (form all religions) that is causing problems.

Exploitation of the religion, for the empires or the individuals, is common among all religions.
Objectives and methods were/are almost same.
Crusaders' power to fight was harnessd by the church and the kings/warlords. Jihadists' power is harnessed by the Mullahs.



Take on true Islam.....

Islam is not a religion of merely a set of some beliefs. It is a way of life. It has more liberties than restrictions.
It teaches and invites to practice certain things that can benefit the individuals and the society as a whole.



Islam is the recent most religion among the major religions in the world.
It is spread all over the world; among all civilizations, races and languages.

The conflicts did not start with emergence of Islam. Before Islam all civilizations and races, and regions and religions had had wars and had committed atrocities.

Go to the history, and count the incidents of mass killings/ethnic cleansing, mass forced emigration of local population, concentration camps, Holocaust, enslaving, destructon of cities/dwellings.

How many of them committed by Muslims?

The basic spirit of Islam does not allow discrimination based upon race, caste, region, culture, color, language etc etc.


Islam, whereever it spread, gave honour and protection to local language, culture, and customs. Most of the preachers of Islam used local languages to spread its message among the masses.



posted on Nov, 26 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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originally posted by Al Daviston


As if G-d needed these pompous "middle-men" to speak on G-d's behalf! The arrogance of it all makes me furious! G-d does not need special agents to speak to humanity.




I agree in total to Al Daviston on these points.

It is not the fault of Einstien to discover/theoriseE=mcc, it is the fault of those who use this theory for human destruction.

Islam or other religions are not dangerous, it is the mentality/ approach/ by those pompous "middle-men" to speak on God's behalf, (form all religions) that is causing problems.

Exploitation of the religion, for the empires or the individuals, is common among all religions.
Objectives and methods were/are almost same.
Crusaders' power to fight was harnessd by the church and the kings/warlords. Jihadists' power is harnessed by the Mullahs.



Take on true Islam.....

Islam is not a religion of merely a set of some beliefs. It is a way of life. It has more liberties than restrictions.
It teaches and invites to practice certain things that can benefit the individuals and the society as a whole.



Islam is the recent most religion among the major religions in the world.
It is spread all over the world; among all civilizations, races and languages.

The conflicts did not start with emergence of Islam. Before Islam all civilizations and races, and regions and religions had had wars and had committed atrocities.

Go to the history, and count the incidents of mass killings/ethnic cleansing, mass forced emigration of local population, concentration camps, Holocaust, enslaving, destructon of cities/dwellings.

How many of them committed by Muslims?

The basic spirit of Islam does not allow discrimination based upon race, caste, region, culture, color, language etc etc.


Islam, whereever it spread, gave honour and protection to local language, culture, and customs. Most of the preachers of Islam used local languages to spread its message among the masses.









chaudri



posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 04:38 AM
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GEEK101

A breath of fresh air.

I have read the Quran and studied it for years. I have been to Egypt and Iraq and Jordan. I have met many muslims.
I found it disturbing how much man made customs have found thier way into the religon. After reading the Quran and seeing this, I was really confused. I kept thinking I dont rmember reading that. Muslims must grow beards. You cant listen to music. YOu must pray like this.

Nice to hear from you.
I hope in the future many Muslims can look at the Quran and leave the man made things out.



posted on Nov, 29 2005 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Snowman9
........]

A breath of fresh air.

I have read the Quran and studied it for years.

I have been to Egypt and Iraq and Jordan.

I have met many muslims.I found it disturbing how much man made customs have found thier way into the religon.

[.................]

I hope in the future many Muslims can look at the Quran and leave the man made things out.





Here lies the problem. If the religion grasps all aspects of human life everywhere, and there is homogeneity of all believers all over the world.............is it ideal?

Then what else is extremism/fundamentalism.?



The way Islam is practised in different regions/cultures is THE BEAUTY, it is the liberty that Islam gives. It is this diversity that makes Islam more tolerant and gives it more penetration into all regions, races and civilisations. It gives Muslims a wast sphere to act within.
A woman in customary Hijab(full veil) to a woman in modern 'sobre' ( may be colourfull) dress, a full spectrum of choices/adaptations in any single locality is a beauty not a curse.

It is the social norms of a community that determine the extent of strictness of the veil for women. Same applies to the normal dress of men.

Islam has no special dress prescribed for any man or woman.
Is it acceptable to color the whole set of believers with a single color, same thinking, same customs, same rituals............ as I think, as You percieve, as an un-educated Mullah sees................Islam was not meant to fight over.

Islam addresses the message to all humans, does not force them to accept it. One who accepts it is, however, given some responsiblities, is ordered to refrain from some evil things; some of these evils harm individual, others harm the family, community or the human race. Rest is the liberty!

The diversity in cultures under Islam is a blessing, a real liberalism, not a conspiracy....................!

And to restrict any religion to a specific rigid/static model is THE way to extremism. This thread be used to Question Answer (Q&A) about Islam, not to erode the dynamism of Islam that is inherent property and the real beauty and cause of spread of Islam.



From my earlier post
Islam is the recent most religion among the major religions in the world.
It is spread all over the world; among all civilizations, races and languages.

The conflicts did not start with emergence of Islam. Before Islam all civilizations and races, and regions and religions had had wars and had committed atrocities.

Go to the history, and count the incidents of mass killings/ethnic cleansing, mass forced emigration of local population, concentration camps, Holocaust, enslaving, destructon of cities/dwellings.

How many of them committed by Muslims?

The basic spirit of Islam does not allow discrimination based upon race, caste, region, culture, color, language etc etc.


Islam, whereever it spread, gave honour and protection to local language, culture, and customs. Most of the preachers of Islam learnt, spoke and wrote in local languages to spread its message among the masses.

Nov. 29, 2005:Last paragraph edited, just for clarity.







chaudri



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